Free will 2---how come....

[BIG D]

I certainly have no idea what drives serial kilers to murder. However, as a mere guess, I would say there are various contributing factors, ranging from the psycho-pathological to environmental and perhaps even biochemical.

I am not a psychologist nor a human behavioral specialist. And again, I don't mean to undervalue the relevance of your question, but while any of these factors may work to press their influence upon human behavior, I still fail to see in your reasoning and questioning any conclusive proof that actors, whether they be serial killers or pacifists, are not free to ignore or resist the urge to murder that springs from the psychological and environmental weight of these contributing factors.

We are each and every one of us faced with countless numbers of choices every single day, such as, 'Do I have coffee or orange juice with breakfast?' . . . and . . . 'Do I take the freeway or the bypass to get downtown to work today?" . . . and . . . "Do I stop off at happy hour for a couple vodka-tonics on the way home or do I go a homicidal killing spree at the mall?"

We may have certain factors pressing on us to make poor decisions, to choose stupid options over smarter ones, but we are free, both male and female, to ignore those influences.

We are not a 'slave' to unwilled behavior, to internal and/or external forces. We are not FORCED to murder. And I daresay, if there are those out there, serial killers or otherwise, who cannot control their actions and are 'slaves' to influencial factors, then they are not representative of 'typical' agents. They constitute the 'abnormal'.

I think what a lot of people don't realize, is that some murderers don't just don't plan it overnight, but the murderers[and rapists] dwell on things, thinking, planning,etc for years sometimes...even the divorced husband, that kills in the courtroom, has been going through 'hell' for a long time....it's not a choice we/they make everyday..it's a long process sometimes,...have you've ever heard, ''everyone has a breaking point''??....I've got to go, but will be back, for your enjoyment...ty

 

[Eliot Wild]

ok, my simple question is, how come there is a huge difference in murder rates between males and females?? and/or, how come you have a huge difference in murder rates between certain groups of people and the areas where the murders are committed?

I don't know for certain, however, I would suspect there are numerous factors that collide to make males more violent and aggressive than females. It seems to me there are obvious cultural and sociological factors. For instance, boys are just 'taught' to be more aggressive in most cultures. Even in modern societies that supposedly place value in gender equality and adequation, there are obvious differences in the personal values that are stressed to men and women.

Men are generally taught to be the aggressors. It is more traditional for men to fill the role of warrior, soldier and defender. Little boys are given play guns and plastic soldiers for toys, while little girls are given baby dolls to take care for. And though modern society has blurred the gender lines and somewhat muted these traditional roles, with women now serving alongside men in the military and being encouraged more and more to engage in physical athletics, there still remain distinct differences between the genders, generally speaking.

Men are also typically bigger and stronger than women. It doesn't seem strange to me that people who have the ability to physically dominate others would elect to utilize that ability as a tool or as a weapon even. Many males will commonly use their larger physical presence to intimidate and influence others who are smaller in size and stature, and this usually includes women. It seems to me to be an obvious guess that some men would carry this physical domination of others to violent extremes.

As for statistical differences between certain groups, such as those divided on the basis of race, I would think the most relevant factors would be cultural and socioeconomic.

Again, I'm no psychologist. Nor am I a sociologist. So, I couldn't pinpoint with any expert knowledge the exact influences that weigh on murderers, especially when it comes to seriel killers and other pathological types.

But I would contend from a much more general perspective that these influences are just that-- mere influences. The human 'will' is constantly pushed and pulled, pressed and pressured, to act in certain ways that may or may not be necessarily 'good', either for ourselves or for others. Everytime I turn on the television, someone is trying to influence me to purchase a new car or to change my brand of beer. And I suppose we have all probably been tempted to commit acts of violence as a way of dealing with problems. I am both former military and former Kentucky redneck, and even though I like to think of myself as a learned gentleman these days, I have been in a few brawls--some of which I probably could have avoided but freely chose not to. Most of 'em, I lost.

But I was always capable of making another decision than the one I made. I suppose when it gets right down to it, I can't speak for anyone other than myself. I don't know what oppressive influences are pressing their weight on others. But I suspect even murderers have the choice to NOT commit their crimes; they just freely opt to do so.

 

[BIG D]

----YES<>TAUGHT!!--doesn't that 'lessen' free will when you are 'taught' to do ''wrong''??hitler[no caps for him] 'taught'[with propaganda] that the Jews were bad, and some people believed him!!jim jones same, david koresh,same...and people did as these nut cases wanted!!!..if you're taught something from age 1, you really get it put into your mind...surely you agree, that men and women are 'chemically' different??..and these 'chemicals' cause aggressiveness/rage/etc??--your pic, Elliot ,is .....???..very likable but annoying

 

[waitasec]

how come most murderers are MALE???!!!..is it because males have LESS free will, or are males chemically more violent/aggressive???

this is a great question but i think what you are doing here is dissecting freewill.
free will is a lump sum. it is the whole not one of many "sins", if you will.
everyone has a weakness to varying degrees...

to over generalize:
men-anger
women-jealousy

these are qualities that have been taken to the next level.
anger can come from being hurt
jealousy can come from feeling deficient
it is with our free will we decide what to do with these innate emotions...

 

[Eliot Wild]

----YES<>TAUGHT!!--doesn't that 'lessen' free will when you are 'taught' to do ''wrong''??hitler[no caps for him] 'taught'[with propaganda] that the Jews were bad, and some people believed him!!jim jones same, david koresh,same...and people did as these nut cases wanted!!!..if you're taught something from age 1, you really get it put into your mind...surely you agree, that men and women are 'chemically' different??..and these 'chemicals' cause aggressiveness/rage/etc??--your pic, Elliot ,is .....???..very likable but annoying

I don't think it is possible to 'lessen' freewill. Either one is free to make a choice or one is not. To me, it's like being a 'little bit pregnant'. Either one is pregant or they're not. Either one has freewill or they don't.

Again, there are 'influences' that impact our decision-making. I would certainly agree that the manner in which a person is raised and the lessons they are taught, the values that are instilled in an individual, these are powerful factors influencing behavior.

However, it seems to me that the key distinction in these examples you have provided, examples such as Hitler and James Jones and David Koresh, is that many people freely elected NOT to follow these men and NOT to grant their particular beliefs any value. The very fact that there were people exposed to their teachings who apparently freely decided to oppose them, indicates to me that we are not slaves to our education, we are not puppets of propaganda. We don't dance on strings, unless we freely elect to dance on another's strings.

It sounds like you are attempting to make an argument against 'freewill' by concentrating on the causal nature of our universe. For every effect, there is a cause. And everything we do, our every action, is predetermined by the causal chain of events that preceded that action. The tendancy toward violent behavior and murder can be traced back to a preceding cause, such as education, chemical instigators, etc.

And I believe I mentioned in another post that this classic argument against freewill drives me to be divided on the subject. 'Cause-and-effect', as an irreconcilable reality of our natural universe, is . . . well, it's hard to reconcile. Smarter minds than my own, much smarter, have failed to figure out how 'freethinking, freeacting' agents can operate in a universe where every effect/action seems predetermined by a preceding cause.

I believe the answer to this age-old question lies somewhere within our self-awareness. Our conscious ability to take countless inputs and arrange them to preference, then to sift them and rearrange them again, to learn from past mistakes and to ignore or submit to internal and external influences, all this seems to have produced a unique causal, unpredictable force operating in this universe--namely the human mind.

Besides, if freewill isn't a reality, then pretty much all of our civil and criminal law codes, as well as many other of our civic and social institutions, are absolutely obsolete. What is the point of trying someone for a criminal offense if nobody is responsible for their own actions?

I don't see how murder rates for men and women, or for certain groups, or how statistical information regarding any crimes can be used to prove freewill or the lack thereof. It appears, at least for practical purposes, that the human mind is capable of making a self-aware, freely-accepted choice at the point of decision-making. Even if I have been taught all my life that murder is acceptible behavior, I am still capable of choosing another option when faced with the decision of carrying out the deed. But I suppose until we know for certain the extent of our own power to ignore causal influences, until we know specifically how the human brain works and how exactly it is engineered to make decisions, then it is all merely speculative.

 

[BIG D]

Besides, if freewill isn't a reality, then pretty much all of our civil and criminal law codes, as well as many other of our civic and social institutions, are absolutely obsolete. What is the point of trying someone for a criminal offense if nobody is responsible for their own actions? EXACTLY--BUT, for a decent, civilized society not to self destruct, order and laws are needed..I will finally exit this thread and ty 4 replies, ..I think the huge statistical differences indicate free will is not so free to do...ty

 

[Skwim]

Besides, if freewill isn't a reality, then pretty much all of our civil and criminal law codes, as well as many other of our civic and social institutions, are absolutely obsolete.

Not at all, they serve the social structure as we perceive and have constructed it.

What is the point of trying someone for a criminal offense if nobody is responsible for their own actions?

The point is, we can do no differently. Just as a criminal can't help but to commit a crime neither can we help but to condemn him, and hold him responsible---even though this responsibility is a false construction of our minds.

It is a fool's reality we live in, but, alas, one we have no choice in participating in.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

ok, my simple question is, how come there is a huge difference in murder rates between males and females?? and/or, how come you have a huge difference in murder rates between certain groups of people and the areas where the murders are committed?

The answer is the same as why we get lumpy porridge. The mix is not evenly spread or with the same characteristics.

 

[Dan4reason]

how come most murderers are MALE???!!!..is it because males have LESS free will, or are males chemically more violent/aggressive???

The reason for this is that we don't simply make choices. We make them for inherent reasons. For example, depending on our emotions, we will make different choices. Based on our peculiar mental dispositions we will make different choices. A person with aspergers will tend to make different choices than one without.

We also make choices because of the environments we are in. For example, I will make different choices around friends than in a dangerous situation. The environment I am in will affect my current mental disposition and emotions and slightly affect my future mental dispositions and emotion. My mental disposition and emotions will also affect the environments I am in. Everything is interconnected. Our genes affect our mental characteristics along with our environment. These two can be intertwined and be reinforcing. It is amazing how they can affect each other.

This all does not disprove free will because we are still exersizing it. Our genes and our environments simply affect the kinds of people we are and the sort of things we will choose. Males have a greater propensity to crime because of the environments they are in (e.g. culturally males are encouraged to be agressive). We are also more liely to be violent and because of human nature we generally do more of it then. We may also be genetically more likely to be violent than women.

These are generalizations for course and genes and environments among men and women vary.