Free Will as Brain Scans Reveal

[idav]

Our part for what?

Well that's the question of the thread, isn't it? What else determines it?

I don't see how that's relevant.

Like actors in a play that already have a role to fulfill.

Yes, was a comment about being humble. Being humble still doesn't stop people from expressing gratitude. Was meant to be.

I think it is relevant. Your comments were leaning towards something like not really having a reason to do anything or act a certain way. To me the fact that we do more than rocks is a good thing even if it turns out it was determined all along.

 

[idav]

double post

 

[Penumbra]

Like actors in a play that already have a role to fulfill.

I like those kinds of philosophies and relate to them to a degree. For instance, I enjoyed the Bhagavad Gita which had aspects of that type of approach.

That didn't answer the question though. (Not that you're obligated to, but just pointing that out.)

So.. our part for what?

Yes, was a comment about being humble. Being humble still doesn't stop people from expressing gratitude. Was meant to be.

Gratitude towards who, and for what?

I think it is relevant. Your comments were leaning towards something like not really having a reason to do anything or act a certain way. To me the fact that we do more than rocks is a good thing even if it turns out it was determined all along.

The comments were merely a subset of potential consequences of not finding free will to be a meaningful concept, in response to the specific question of whether it matters. Some arguably desirable consequences, and some not so much. Depends who you ask, I suppose.

I think what it comes down to is how far one is willing to agree or disagree that free will is a meaningful or true concept, and perhaps more importantly, how skilled people are at compartmentalization of thoughts.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Among other consequences,

-If a lack of free will is accepted, it makes certain emotions like anger obsolete. What is the purpose of things like vengeance or anger towards an individual if it can't be said that individuals have anything we'd call free will? Who, exactly, would I ever be angry towards? This has all sorts of applications in legal systems, too.

-If a lack of free will is accepted, it implies a person should be humble. Suppose I succeed at something- can I take credit? What "self" am I identifying the credit towards, if it cannot be said that I have anything I'd call free will?

-In addition to some positive things, if a lack of free will is accepted, it can conceivably affect a person's level of motivation. Feeling in control of things seems to be a big part of motivation, personal development, relationships, engagement with activities, responsibility, etc.

Would there be any "should's" in absence of free will, though?

Feelings like gratitude, anger, or desire for vengeance wouldn't be controlled by the person(s) experiencing them; even if they knew there is no free will, I don't think they could choose to act accordingly.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

This only works within your frame work of perception of life.

Take a Christian of Calvin ideology. Often times they can't subscribe to the idea of Free Will, because if they did, they could dictate to God at their own leisure when God would save them.

If we have free will in that scenario, we can choose to accept God's salvation as offered, whenever we are ready.
There is a difference, in choosing as you suggest going to Japan or Russia, and whether or not we reincarnate, live for eternity, come back as a cow, etc...

The question then becomes if somethings are of our free will but others aren't, how can we really be sure where the line is divided.

So, to me and others that read your response, that don't view the world as you do, free will does not work.

All I am asking, rather hoping you will understand, is that you "believe" in something that works for you. More power to you. It works for you, because you have a certain way of viewing life, which I respect, but disagree with.

Thank you for elaborating on your stand-point.

Where I am coming from is:

Putting my hand in fire WILL burn. It is a gospel truth. Similarly, free-will is.

On the point of accepting God’s salvation, yes, we can accept it whenever we are ready. However, please understand, that to accept God’s salvation means to ‘surrender’ to God. Which means, to ‘abide’ by what He says. God has given us the free-will, (power) to choose. If we choose to surrender, God will give us salvation. The real question is "are WE willing to surrender?"

We are free for some things and not for others. This can be explained using the law ‘every action has an equal and opposite reaction’ - the law of Karma.
What is coming in front of us is a reaction (equal & opposite) of our past actions. How we choose to ‘act’ in the situations brought before us as a ‘reaction’, that action, will be the basis of our reaction - ‘future situations.’ This endless cycle thus goes on. So, we have a free-will in ‘how’ we accept a situation. Not in ‘what’ we accept as a situation.

I am just trying to point to the ‘logic’. It is not about ‘belief’. It is about ‘fact’. Beliefs can change….facts can’t!

Please do not think I am trying to convince you or anyone here of my view-point. No. I am not. And neither can I, even if I wanted to!

With due respect, I acknowledge your individual understanding but at the same time, I beg to differ in my understanding.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

So EXACTLY what is the will and how is it free? To make it easy, simply finish these statements:

1) The will is_______________________________________________________ .

2) Free will is ______________________________________________________ .

1) The will is determination of action_________________ .

2) Free will is freedom in determination of action______ .

 

[Penumbra]

Would there be any "should's" in absence of free will, though?

Feelings like gratitude, anger, or desire for vengeance wouldn't be controlled by the person(s) experiencing them; even if they knew there is no free will, I don't think they could choose to act accordingly.

Not a moral should, but potentially a logical outcome. As in, "to do otherwise lacks basis", rather than, "you should morally..."

Under such a scenario, those feelings wouldn't be controlled by the person either, as you point out. But the outcome of contemplating conceptions of free will, or contemplating the the broader category of "self", can result in those outcomes. The person could end up one way or another, of course based on determinism in such a scenario, and yet insight into free will or self would be one of those links in the deterministic chain of events that results in those outcomes of realizing certain emotions lack basis under those philosophical systems.

Basically what I'm pointing out is that it seems that a lack of free will is often associated with negativity, but that in addition to potentially negative consequences or realizations, there are also some potentially positive ones as well.

 

[idav]

Basically what I'm pointing out is that it seems that a lack of free will is often associated with negativity, but that in addition to potentially negative consequences or realizations, there are also some potentially positive ones as well.

Or neutral.

 

[Skwim]

1) The will is determination of action_________________ .

2) Free will is freedom in determination of action______ .

Free from what?

 

[Skwim]

Would there be any "should's" in absence of free will, though?

Yes there is.

Feelings like gratitude, anger, or desire for vengeance wouldn't be controlled by the person(s) experiencing them; even if they knew there is no free will, I don't think they could choose to act accordingly.

Those of us who dismiss the notion of free will usually recognize that we still operate as if there was such a thing. Not because we want to, but because there is no other option. I behave as if I have free will because I cannot do otherwise.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Free from what?

Freedom of choice

 

[Skwim]

Freedom of choice

Okay, you said:

"Free will is freedom in determination of action______ ."
​

and I asked

"Free from what?"
​

And you say,

"Freedom of choice"
​

So you're saying that either freewill is free of "Freedom of choice." OR that determination of action is free of "Freedom of choice." So which is it?

1) Freewill doesn't included "Freedom of choice."

2) Determination of action lacks "Freedom of choice."

3) Neither involve "Freedom of choice."​

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Okay, you said:

"Free will is freedom in determination of action______ ."
​

and I asked

"Free from what?"
​

And you say,

"Freedom of choice"
​

So you're saying that either freewill is free of "Freedom of choice." OR that determination of action is free of "Freedom of choice." So which is it?

1) Freewill doesn't included "Freedom of choice."

2) Determination of action lacks "Freedom of choice."

3) Neither involve "Freedom of choice."​

Please understand it as Free to choose, a determination of a particular action, from a choice of available actions.

EDIT: The freedom of choice is in accordance with one's will.

Thus FREE WILL.

 

[Skwim]

Please understand it as Free to choose, a determination of a particular action, from a choice of available actions.

But can't any old will do this? What's so special about a freewill?

EDIT: The freedom of choice is in accordance with one's will.

And, again, isn't this what the will already does; make choices? If so, then what freedom does the "free" in freewill refer to? Seems to me it's enough to say, we have a will. What's the big deal with FREEwill?

 

[Vrindavana Das]

But can't any old will do this? What's so special about a freewill?
And, again, isn't this what the will already does; make choices? If so, then what freedom does the "free" in freewill refer to? Seems to me it's enough to say, we have a will. What's the big deal with FREEwill?

Well... we sometimes say - "I am willing to do so." This somewhat implies, that due to some circumstance, I am agreeing to do so.

But when we say, "I am doing it out of my free-will", somewhere it implies there is no pressure of any circumstance, it is of my own choice, I am doing so.

This is a very personal understanding.

 

[Willamena]

Does it really matter if God exists? Does it really matter if we evolved or not? Does it really matter if morals do or do not exist? Does anything REALLY matter?

Does it really matter if it doesn't really matter?

 

[Willamena]

But can't any old will do this? What's so special about a freewill?
And, again, isn't this what the will already does; make choices? If so, then what freedom does the "free" in freewill refer to? Seems to me it's enough to say, we have a will. What's the big deal with FREEwill?

Name one thing that's free, and tell me why it's free.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Well... we sometimes say - "I am willing to do so." This somewhat implies, that due to some circumstance, I am agreeing to do so.

But when we say, "I am doing it out of my free-will", somewhere it implies there is no pressure of any circumstance, it is of my own choice, I am doing so.

This is a very personal understanding.

And what about "I will" in general. Is that free or not?

 

[Willamena]

And what about "I will" in general. Is that free or not?

That a thing is done "unwillingly" means that it is done for another, the "other," because of them, their wishes, their needs, either to please them or serve them at the expense of one's "self," one's wishes, one's needs. Will, which is never not free as long as it remains in the picture, supports one's "self" or being (supports its presence in the picture). It is the expression of that "self" impacting the world.

In terms of the Middle Way, this sense of freedom drops away when there is no "doing because of" either self or other, there is just doing. Self-and-otherlessness defeats free will.

 

[Hawkeye112200]

Did anyone notice that part where the scientist talks about the brain is GENERALLY acting in harmony and cahoots with our consciousness. In other words, there is a synergy that develops in each persons union, to where some like pickles and others don't. So the brain USUALLY isn't going to force you to eat a pickle.

I just find it fascinating.