Free Will No Longer

[Jimmy]

The question of whether we enjoy autonomous, libertarian free will or only experience the illusion of same is unanswerable. The universes that contain one would be indistinguishable to us from those containing the other.

Libertarian free will is the idea that the will is not the result of anything other than the conscious self itself, which is its author unaffected by external reality including the brain. That is, in libertarian free will, the will originates in the conscious mind, whereas with the illusion of free will, the self receives instruction from the brain to the mind, and wills what it does passively while mistaking itself as the origin of that will rather than a passive conduit for it. It implies that in the exact same circumstances, one could will either of two (or more) things - an undecidable question. You can't reproduce those exact circumstances ever again to test it, and even if you could go back in time to the moment when you chose A and make a choice again, even if you chose B, you still wouldn't have an answer, because you wouldn't know that you had been in that moment before - if you did, then it's not the exact same reality - or that you were doing a test, or how it turned out before.

Furthermore, the answer would be useless even if we had it. What would you do differently if you knew one were the case rather than the other? Some say that punishing immoral behavior is itself immoral if there is no libertarian free will, but humanists hold that view in both cases. Punishment is not a part that thinking. That's a religious idea and central to Christianity, for example, since punishment is the reason given in biblical myths for why bad things to happen to humanity under the rule of a tri-omni deity. Humanism rejects punishment - inflicting gratuitous suffering - as is described in hell. It rejects the idea of prisons inflicting suffering beyond what confinement necessarily entails. Confinement is not to punish, but to serve as a disincentive to lawbreaking by the convict and others who see what becomes of scofflaws, and to remove a danger from the streets.

Some say that believing that will is not free is permission to or cause to behave differently. That wasn't the case for me. I suspect that free will is illusion, but I haven't always. Between then and now, when I went from assuming that I had libertarian free will to a place where I seriously question that, I had a period of cognitive dissonance as I assimilated that, but in the end, nothing changed. I still behave as if my will originated with the subject of consciousness even though I know that that is likely to be incorrect, because it doesn't matter either way.

I don't see where anything useful can be added to any of that. We don't know, we can't know, and knowing wouldn't be helpful even if we did know.

You’re right that it doesn’t really matter as life will happen regardless.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I believed in free will because I believed we had choices but there has always been something in the pit of me that didn’t think so and today I’ve come to accept it no longer. It was fear that kept me thinking it existed but now I’m ready to accept its absence. Not only fear but the way I interpreted past lives and future lives as not having any bearing on this life but I can no longer ignore the fact that past and future lives play a role in how I interpret free will. The way I see it, my God is in full control of everything and the best I can hope for is sound choices and a good life. I remember being a little boy sitting on the couch thinking that I could fool God with my next move. Would I turn my head left or right? Haha. I ended up concluding that no matter what I did God already saw it. I knew more as a little boy and wasn’t even afraid.

I would say we do have free will but it is also limited by genes and the circumstances we were born into and the degree in which we can exercise free will varies from person to person

 

[Nakosis]

In Islam doing evil to people is forbidden. Especially parents and family and neighbors.
Doing good is awarded in judgment day.
It's all about test in this life. Later the result. Hell or heaven.
Depend on our faith and deeds too.

I do good when I can because imo, doing good is its own reward.

 

[Godobeyer]

I do good when I can because imo, doing good is its own reward.

It's good that inner person behavior is good and humanity.
but it's total different than to dedicated for God.
we (Muslims) have two motivations , inner and dedicated to God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believed in free will because I believed we had choices but there has always been something in the pit of me that didn’t think so and today I’ve come to accept it no longer....................................................................

'pit of one....' or Bible ?
Bible says God created everything good
God gave Adam & Eve free-will choices
God told Adam the penalty for breaking the Law at Gen. 2:17
The good would be everlasting life living on a paradisical Earth forever
The free-will voluntary choice was left up to Adam to either obey or disobey the Law
Eve was brazen because after she ate the forbidden fruit she did Not even attempt to fool Adam by putting the fruit in pie or something
At the soon coming 'time of separation' (Matt. 25:31-34,37) both the figurative sheep & goats have made their free-will choices

 

[Nakosis]

It's good that inner person behavior is good and humanity.
but it's total different than to dedicated for God.
we (Muslims) have two motivations , inner and dedicated to God.

If you can get both working for you.

 

[Godobeyer]

If you can get both working for you.

Sometimes inner don't work, but dedicated to God work.

For example, like you give money to poor, despite you not rich.

 

[oldbadger]

I believed in free will because I believed we had choices but there has always been something in the pit of me that didn’t think so and today I’ve come to accept it no longer. It was fear that kept me thinking it existed but now I’m ready to accept its absence. Not only fear but the way I interpreted past lives and future lives as not having any bearing on this life but I can no longer ignore the fact that past and future lives play a role in how I interpret free will. The way I see it, my God is in full control of everything and the best I can hope for is sound choices and a good life. I remember being a little boy sitting on the couch thinking that I could fool God with my next move. Would I turn my head left or right? Haha. I ended up concluding that no matter what I did God already saw it. I knew more as a little boy and wasn’t even afraid.

I have some free will....yes.....for sure.
But only 'some'. ..........and then there are the barriers to so much.......

I can see a large portion of our universe but can't reach anywhere beyond Earth. I'm a prisoner to gravity.
I can change my afternoon agenda on a whim, but I'm restricted in connection with where I can go and what I can do.
I am restricted by my available finances, but free-to-spend within those bounds.

But I am quite free within myself, within my mind, because I can make do and be happy with very little.

How about you all?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I have some free will....yes.....for sure.
But only 'some'. ..........and then there are the barriers to so much.......

I can see a large portion of our universe but can't reach anywhere beyond Earth. I'm a prisoner to gravity.
I can change my afternoon agenda on a whim, but I'm restricted in connection with where I can go and what I can do.
I am restricted by my available finances, but free-to-spend within those bounds.

But I am quite free within myself, within my mind, because I can make do and be happy with very little.

How about you all?

Yes same
I have free will within the limits of my personality, cognitive abilities, physical abilities and ssshh life throws at me.
Which is why I find it ironic that a creator would prescribe eternal damnation for limitations supposedly created by them, ha!

 

[Jimmy]

Yes same
I have free will within the limits of my personality, cognitive abilities, physical abilities and ssshh life throws at me.
Which is why I find it ironic that a creator would prescribe eternal damnation for limitations supposedly created by them, ha!

God knows what I will do before I do it but it’s not a big deal as I have choices.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believed in free will because I believed we had choices but there has always been something in the pit of me that didn’t think so and today I’ve come to accept it no longer. It was fear that kept me thinking it existed but now I’m ready to accept its absence. Not only fear but the way I interpreted past lives and future lives as not having any bearing on this life but I can no longer ignore the fact that past and future lives play a role in how I interpret free will. The way I see it, my God is in full control of everything and the best I can hope for is sound choices and a good life. I remember being a little boy sitting on the couch thinking that I could fool God with my next move. Would I turn my head left or right? Haha. I ended up concluding that no matter what I did God already saw it. I knew more as a little boy and wasn’t even afraid.

My preference is the "Potential of very limited Free Will." The first problem is the complexity of the decision decision making process of humans. It is difficult to determine the "Potential" of Free Will or the difficulty of determining that humans do not have any Free Will.

Our physical existence is obviously Deterministic, but no rigidly Newtonian Deterministic. The Nature of our physical existence is Determinism with a range of possible outcomes that can be described as fractal based on Chaos Theory. Likewise our human nature is a product of this Determinism. We make choices within a limited number of choices that maybe described as fractal. Most of our choices are very lmited by many factord. such as Natural Laws, Culture, tribal and family relationships, and the chain of previous cause and effect decisions.

The question is: "Do we have any Free Will withing the range of our possible choices?

 

[Jimmy]

My preference is the "Potential of very limited Free Will." The first problem is the complexity of the decision decision making process of humans. It is difficult to determine the "Potential" of Free Will or the difficulty of determining that humans do not have any Free Will.

Our physical existence is obviously Deterministic, but no rigidly Newtonian Deterministic. The Nature of our physical existence is Determinism with a range of possible outcomes that can be described as fractal based on Chaos Theory. Likewise our human nature is a product of this Determinism. We make choices within a limited number of choices that maybe described as fractal. Most of our choices are very lmited by many factord. such as Natural Laws, Culture, tribal and family relationships, and the chain of previous cause and effect decisions.

The question is: "Do we have any Free Will withing the range of our possible choices?

God knows what I will do before I do it but it’s not a big deal as I have choices.

 

[Kathryn]

I believe that free will and predestination coincide and that both are equally important. I'm OK with not fully grasping how they work together.

 

[Jimmy]

I believe that free will and predestination coincide and that both are equally important. I'm OK with not fully grasping how they work together.

The way I see it after I’m dead I come back here and relive the same exact life so I think I can safely kiss free will goodbye as there’s something bigger than me steering the ship.

 

[Kathryn]

The way I see it after I’m dead I come back here and relive the same exact life so I think I can safely kiss free will goodbye.

You go ahead and believe what you want and I will believe what I want and I bet we are both in for some surprises at the end.

 

[Jimmy]

You go ahead and believe what you want and I will believe what I want and I bet we are both in for some surprises at the end.

Maybe we’ll win a prize.

 

[oldbadger]

God knows what I will do before I do it but it’s not a big deal as I have choices.

Well.....that's what you believe.
For myself, the idea that there is a Deity that's aware of or interested in us is ......most strange.

 

[Jimmy]

Well.....that's what you believe.
For myself, the idea that there is a Deity that's aware of or interested in us is ......most strange.

More like a deity that is existence itself is the way I see it.

 

[Jimmy]

Well.....that's what you believe.
For myself, the idea that there is a Deity that's aware of or interested in us is ......most strange.

The way I see it after I’m dead I come back here and relive the same exact life so I think I can safely kiss free will goodbye as there’s something bigger than me steering the ship.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you've chosen to stop believing in free will?

I no longer believe that we have free will the way I used to believe it.

First of all what we choose is based upon a desire or a preference.

I believe we have a will and we make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances - everything that goes into making us the person we are. All of these factors are the reasons why we choose one thing or another at any point in time.

How free our choices vary with the situation. Certainly, what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity but we have volition as otherwise we could not do anything.

I'd suggest the entire concept is flawed in the first place, and nothing like as simple as some people seem to want it to be yet at the same time, it's so simple as to be irrelevant. Whether we actually have free will or not, and exactly what that means if we do, doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to our day-to-day lives. Maybe I had a free choice whether to post this reply or not, maybe some outside force made me do it, maybe it was destined to happen regardless. Either way, the reply is here.

I agree that the concept of free will is irrelevant in the sense that when we are faced with a choice, we cannot know what caused us to choose between a or b or c. When it becomes relevant is when other people insist that I have a choice and that I can do a when I do not believe I can choose to do a. Maybe I can do a or maybe not, but if I don't even desire to do a, I am not going to choose a, not unless it is something I have to do, such as a work requirement.

It is very annoying when people tell me I can do things that I know I cannot do because that is like telling me I am responsible for not doing something that I should be doing, since I could do these things if I wanted to. However, I am the only one who knows what I can and cannot do.