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Free will vs. predestination: Which are you?
- Thread starter CatholicVoice
- Start date
Deu 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
To have the power of choice is perhaps the most significant way that we are created in the image of HaShem.
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
To have the power of choice is perhaps the most significant way that we are created in the image of HaShem.
adamberkey
New Member
"Free will" is a corruption of language. The correct term is "agency." And I most certainly believe in and sustain the agency of man over the erroneous concept of pre-destination, which removes the agency of man. This term "pre-destination" is also a corruption of language. It was devised to lead people away from the principle of God that his authorized followers, the Saints, know as "fore-ordination." Fore-ordination does not remove the agency of man away from us, but rather respects it, and manifests the amazing preparedness and omniscience of God, allowing man to choose for himself what he shall be, yet continually providing timely assistance to mankind and the eventual victory of righteousness over wickedness.
WilliamGoode
New Member
On one hand, I'm with you, that we are merely Spinoza's stone, skipping merrily along the water. On the other, I do believe that we have freedom in the sense that we can choose how we react to the things that come our way. Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you.
Funny this thread came to my attention today. Yesterday, as I was waiting to be seated at a restaurant, I picked up a paper to read. Before I started reading it, I wondered if I had made the choice to grab and read it, or if it was inevitable. Not because of any fate, but rather because of my past. There was so much thought after picking it up. lol
chessplayer
Member
God sent His Son into the world so that whosoever shall decide to follow Him shall have everlasting life.
God has predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son ( once we have chosen to accept and follow Him )
I have a plan I hope my children will follow , they have the free will to do it their way, but they can still trust me and ask my advice.
We love to set free our pet dogs in the park , but we hope ( plan for ) that they will obey us, and trust us so as to avoid trouble.
If we don`t love God through Christ with our free will , then it`s not love.
God has predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son ( once we have chosen to accept and follow Him )
I have a plan I hope my children will follow , they have the free will to do it their way, but they can still trust me and ask my advice.
We love to set free our pet dogs in the park , but we hope ( plan for ) that they will obey us, and trust us so as to avoid trouble.
If we don`t love God through Christ with our free will , then it`s not love.
If you mean autonomous freewill then the answer is no. Being created in God's image, like Him, however, we do freely choose but that is according to our nature. After the fall our nature is in bondage to sin. Accordingly our emotions move our will directing our intellect. The reverse of our original creation. Since we all freely choose according to our desires and since "every intent of the thoughts of his heart is only evil continually"(Gen.6:5) then one should see the necessity to have our nature "recreated" through that redemption available in Christ.
So our will is "free", that is we are not mindless puppets on a string, but enslaved to sin not autonomous. God Himself is not free to choose other than according to
His nature. As for predestination: God out of the counsel of His own will, according to His own good pleasure, has decreed everything whatsoever comes to pass. Not only did He decree the end but also the means. That is the second causes including man's free choices. He predestined man to freely make his choices all the while fulfilling His purposes.
So our will is "free", that is we are not mindless puppets on a string, but enslaved to sin not autonomous. God Himself is not free to choose other than according to
His nature. As for predestination: God out of the counsel of His own will, according to His own good pleasure, has decreed everything whatsoever comes to pass. Not only did He decree the end but also the means. That is the second causes including man's free choices. He predestined man to freely make his choices all the while fulfilling His purposes.
The only free will we have is to identify yourself with the body or not. For everything the body does is already predetermined, if you identify with the body you cannot have freewill. If you are caught up with the Body and it's projections you come under Karmic Law. All this world is a stage and every man and women is a mere player.
The Script has been already written, just as time flows towards us and into the past. The I AM never moves. But events and bodies do. Such is the Law of Karma. Just as Othello or Romeo is played by an actor, his part is decreed by Shakespeare. It is played again and again, a thousand or even a million times without departing from the text!
Our role as an Actor is cast the moment we are manifested in flesh, and set foot on this great stage of Life. The only freedom you have is to remember...........do you really remember? Well if you do, you will discover the absence of the actor!This is the first and last freedom you must DISCOVER. Or Karmic Law will grind away until you do! That is the Cross!
You are perfect and so is creation but you have forgotten! So Karmic Law is this forgetfulness, we have forgotten who we are, where we came from or what we are doing here, we are utterly lost in our script.
Now this brings me to the great controversy of Freewill!
God alone has freewill! But as none can thwart His Will, God has no need to exercise it....THERE IS ONLY ONE DOER, that is God, the Master realised that on Earth, you must too. You cannot go about your Fathers Business untill you do!
So the Christ said: "I can do nothing of myself, unless the Father gave it to me to do." Such words fall on death ears in Christendom. They would never dare say it, but in there own wisdom they teach they are superior beings to Christ, they claim they have freewill something Christ never claimed! On the contrary He declared He could do not do His own will, and could not even speak His own words, He could not even resist Golgotha for God's Will over ruled even His.That was His Script!
Of course forget about the fact you do not choose your parents,race and social standing, your intelligence, health etc. You may have a will but certainly it is not free. It too will be bound by your parents when you are young, then by society, your job, your Family etc.
It is impossible for Any Will to be Done, except God's.Sure we have a will given to us, without which we could not communicate ro get to know anything outside of ourself.....................until the day we realise there is nothing outside of our consciousness and this body is only one of trillions within this consciousness which we are.This is the "Day of the Lord" when the Universe is discovered not to be outside of us but within, that is the day the balloon ego is pricked and dissolves back into it's Source.
Only in appearance, do we appear to have a choice. Now the choice I make is dependant on My Conditioning. What I have been programmed for by my parents, DNA, society, education, my wife, children,enviroment, a multitude of macro and micro systems and hierarchies, the list is endless in what collectively decides on any choice I make. Am I fully conscious of all the imputs, that go into any decision I make? No!
So what does the word of God say? "God has shut up all mankind in stubbornness and unbelief." I see no freewill there. the choice to be an unbeliever is not made by me but rather God. Well you say that is a precedent not made in Scripture before! But think again, did not Yahweh harden Pharaohs heart, so he could not release God's people.
It is only God's Sovereign Will, that enables you to believe. No act of your freewill so called could give you salvation. In fact the very word has to be in your mouth, placed there by God before you can even acknowledge Christ as your Saviour. Of course in Reality there is No Separate You to be saved. All is out of God, and therefore cannot fail to return to that ground of Being. That was Paul's Sermon from Mars Hill to the Athenians.
The Script has been already written, just as time flows towards us and into the past. The I AM never moves. But events and bodies do. Such is the Law of Karma. Just as Othello or Romeo is played by an actor, his part is decreed by Shakespeare. It is played again and again, a thousand or even a million times without departing from the text!
Our role as an Actor is cast the moment we are manifested in flesh, and set foot on this great stage of Life. The only freedom you have is to remember...........do you really remember? Well if you do, you will discover the absence of the actor!This is the first and last freedom you must DISCOVER. Or Karmic Law will grind away until you do! That is the Cross!
You are perfect and so is creation but you have forgotten! So Karmic Law is this forgetfulness, we have forgotten who we are, where we came from or what we are doing here, we are utterly lost in our script.
Now this brings me to the great controversy of Freewill!
God alone has freewill! But as none can thwart His Will, God has no need to exercise it....THERE IS ONLY ONE DOER, that is God, the Master realised that on Earth, you must too. You cannot go about your Fathers Business untill you do!
So the Christ said: "I can do nothing of myself, unless the Father gave it to me to do." Such words fall on death ears in Christendom. They would never dare say it, but in there own wisdom they teach they are superior beings to Christ, they claim they have freewill something Christ never claimed! On the contrary He declared He could do not do His own will, and could not even speak His own words, He could not even resist Golgotha for God's Will over ruled even His.That was His Script!
Of course forget about the fact you do not choose your parents,race and social standing, your intelligence, health etc. You may have a will but certainly it is not free. It too will be bound by your parents when you are young, then by society, your job, your Family etc.
It is impossible for Any Will to be Done, except God's.Sure we have a will given to us, without which we could not communicate ro get to know anything outside of ourself.....................until the day we realise there is nothing outside of our consciousness and this body is only one of trillions within this consciousness which we are.This is the "Day of the Lord" when the Universe is discovered not to be outside of us but within, that is the day the balloon ego is pricked and dissolves back into it's Source.
Only in appearance, do we appear to have a choice. Now the choice I make is dependant on My Conditioning. What I have been programmed for by my parents, DNA, society, education, my wife, children,enviroment, a multitude of macro and micro systems and hierarchies, the list is endless in what collectively decides on any choice I make. Am I fully conscious of all the imputs, that go into any decision I make? No!
So what does the word of God say? "God has shut up all mankind in stubbornness and unbelief." I see no freewill there. the choice to be an unbeliever is not made by me but rather God. Well you say that is a precedent not made in Scripture before! But think again, did not Yahweh harden Pharaohs heart, so he could not release God's people.
It is only God's Sovereign Will, that enables you to believe. No act of your freewill so called could give you salvation. In fact the very word has to be in your mouth, placed there by God before you can even acknowledge Christ as your Saviour. Of course in Reality there is No Separate You to be saved. All is out of God, and therefore cannot fail to return to that ground of Being. That was Paul's Sermon from Mars Hill to the Athenians.
whatbibleteaches
New Member
Human~KIND was CREATED. Was created by Jehovah God, the Almighty of the whole Universe (and outside this Universe as we know it)
Humankind was created "in God's image".
Jehovah God has "free will". No ONE // No-THING can check God's hand (as the prophet Daniel wrote).
But the term: "free-will" is MIS-understood.
"free-will" has LIMITS.
For example: HumanKind's free will is LIMITED by the force of "gravity".
If we use our freewill to jump off a tall building (without a safety device); then our freewill will end in a huge splat.
If we use our freewill to "stop eating", we might last a month.
If we use our freewill to "stop drinking water", we will last perhaps a week.
If we use our freewill to "stop breathing", we will last perhaps 3-5 minutes.
Then our "freewill" - - will end.
Simply because that's not all there is to consider in understanding freewill.
We must understand that freewill HAS LIMITS.
Freewill also HAS CONSEQUENCES.
Once we come to grasp these accompanying boundaries around free-will; only then can we come to grips with what free will is really all about; and this idiotic dialog & voting can be be trashed as worthless debates.
There you have it! Sorry to deflate you-alls.
Humankind was created "in God's image".
Jehovah God has "free will". No ONE // No-THING can check God's hand (as the prophet Daniel wrote).
But the term: "free-will" is MIS-understood.
"free-will" has LIMITS.
For example: HumanKind's free will is LIMITED by the force of "gravity".
If we use our freewill to jump off a tall building (without a safety device); then our freewill will end in a huge splat.
If we use our freewill to "stop eating", we might last a month.
If we use our freewill to "stop drinking water", we will last perhaps a week.
If we use our freewill to "stop breathing", we will last perhaps 3-5 minutes.
Then our "freewill" - - will end.
Simply because that's not all there is to consider in understanding freewill.
We must understand that freewill HAS LIMITS.
Freewill also HAS CONSEQUENCES.
Once we come to grasp these accompanying boundaries around free-will; only then can we come to grips with what free will is really all about; and this idiotic dialog & voting can be be trashed as worthless debates.
There you have it! Sorry to deflate you-alls.
Virtually every cognitively capable organism will believe they have free will for this reason: Such an organism will be able to imagine doing many actions but will/can not always see the factors that preclude a "chosen" action. The result is that they will firmly believe they can do something they can't because they cannot perceive all the factors that preclude that action. They may think they can they can choose to, say, go to the library on Tuesday, only to go there and find the Library is closed. They may think they can choose to go to bed at 9:00p.m. but at 8:30 a fire erupts in the basement; they may think they can visit their daughter in college at 8a.m., only to learn the college has been on lockdown because of a shooting. It is this way with every "choice": We only choose to do things we think are possible but sometimes we're wrong! So "free will" is based on perception, not reality.
Ron Hackel
Member
Yes we were allowed freewill in order to prove that it is something no one should want. As Jesus taught in the lord's prayer, God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. We are supposed to do God's will but that is impossible as long as anyone retains freewill. Some people think that somehow we will do God's will with freewill because of the cross and how it showed how much Jesus had to suffer for us. It's almost 2000 years since that and the world hasn't come any closer to doing God's will than it was than.
Even if we wanted to do God's will, what is it in every case?
1 CORINTHIANS 2 : 11 "For who among men men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."
After this demonstration is over God is going to put his Spirit in all mankind
1 CORINTHIAN 15 : 28 "so that God may be all in all."
Freewill is a carnal nature and as Paul said, it is in direct opposition to the Spiritual nature. The Spiritual nature acts on the law of love. Paul said we could observe God's law by his creation. Everything we haven't screwed up is a perfect circle of giving. It is all the cycles in nature. If you remember from your science class, it was called the law of thermal dynamics. Nothing is ever gained or lost in God's creation just changed so that it can be used by another. We breathe in oxygen and give off carbon dioxide. The plants take in CO2 and give back oxygen. The carnal nature-freewill is inward seeking. You make choices that are best for yourself in almost all cases. Yes, there may be a few exceptions, but in general freewill is self seeking. Only a God of infinite wisdom and can have billions of his creation make decisions that will be for the good of all.
JEREMIAH 10 : 23 "I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."
ZECHARIAH 4 : 6 "Not by might nor power, but by my Spirit."
As a God of love he forces none of his creation to just accept any thing he allows it to be proven. The last 6000 years of suffering have shown the fallacy of Lucifer's claim that God's creation should have freewill.
Even if we wanted to do God's will, what is it in every case?
1 CORINTHIANS 2 : 11 "For who among men men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."
After this demonstration is over God is going to put his Spirit in all mankind
1 CORINTHIAN 15 : 28 "so that God may be all in all."
Freewill is a carnal nature and as Paul said, it is in direct opposition to the Spiritual nature. The Spiritual nature acts on the law of love. Paul said we could observe God's law by his creation. Everything we haven't screwed up is a perfect circle of giving. It is all the cycles in nature. If you remember from your science class, it was called the law of thermal dynamics. Nothing is ever gained or lost in God's creation just changed so that it can be used by another. We breathe in oxygen and give off carbon dioxide. The plants take in CO2 and give back oxygen. The carnal nature-freewill is inward seeking. You make choices that are best for yourself in almost all cases. Yes, there may be a few exceptions, but in general freewill is self seeking. Only a God of infinite wisdom and can have billions of his creation make decisions that will be for the good of all.
JEREMIAH 10 : 23 "I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."
ZECHARIAH 4 : 6 "Not by might nor power, but by my Spirit."
As a God of love he forces none of his creation to just accept any thing he allows it to be proven. The last 6000 years of suffering have shown the fallacy of Lucifer's claim that God's creation should have freewill.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Thought after picking it up is not free-will. The situation made you do that - you had nothing else to do. That is why dentists or hair dressers keep newpapers handy.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
2,500 years ago a 'Charvakist' in India replied to that.
"bhasmi bhutasya dehasya punaragamanam kutah."
(once the body is reduced to ashes, there is no coming back)
In case of Christians it will not be 'reduced to ashes' but 'interred in the grave'.
cosmicwings
New Member
Free will was the downfall of humanity if you read Genesis.... our first parents were given all the graces they needed to live in a perfect eternal place. Along come Satan and presto a bad choice is made. We were predestined to live perfectly with God.... but now we have to '''work at it''' spiritually [and physically' as the garden of Eden is no more!] Now move a few thousand years to today and free will is rampant . Which to some extent is a blessing as we can now choose our destiny. As someone said earlier however, we cannot choose the time of our death. Food for thought
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I consider Adam and Eve.
they were given choice......and they did choose.
contrary to popular dogma....
I believe the garden event included a test.
An alteration had been performed and the test was done to be sure the alteration took hold.
We ARE that creature seeking to know.....even if we are told we might die for the acquisition.
they were given choice......and they did choose.
contrary to popular dogma....
I believe the garden event included a test.
An alteration had been performed and the test was done to be sure the alteration took hold.
We ARE that creature seeking to know.....even if we are told we might die for the acquisition.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Actually it isn't, but that silliness aside, what's your definition off "agency"?
.
Skwim
Veteran Member
arthra
Baha'i
I believe we have free will... and responsibility for ourselves and for others. Our responsibility can at times be very great and significant and the choices we make can weigh down upon us later.
In general terms you could say that some things are destined to happen but we are still free to decide how we approach them.
In general terms you could say that some things are destined to happen but we are still free to decide how we approach them.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
You could have but did not. Considered against internet manners. Force of tradition. You do not have a free-will. No one is talking about predetermination.
Belief, belief, belief! Where is the proof?
Why should they believe so? Circumstances give us a set of courses. We cannot choose out of that. When attacked, the choices are: run, fight or make peace. We will run if the enemy is too powerful and if there is a chance to run away. We will fight if there is a reasonable chance of winning. We will make peace where there is no chance of running away or winning in a fight and if the enemy agrees according to his situation, otherwise the last stand fight. Where did we make a choice? All dictated by circumstances.
Point to consider. We do not act without reason. All actions have a reason behind them.
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