Free will?

[Gjallarhorn]

So at this point some participants have no sense of will?

And they that don't, are going to respond because their genetics made them do it?!!!!!

Try that in front of a judge and see what you get!

So, because human law states something, it's scientifically correct?

Do you keep kosher?

 

[Thief]

So, because human law states something, it's scientifically correct?

Do you keep kosher?

You've got it backwards or deliberately avoiding the point.
You can be held responsible for your actions.

Blame it on chemistry?
Most people won't.
They know better.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

You've got it backwards or deliberately avoiding the point.
You can be held responsible for your actions.

Blame it on chemistry?
Most people won't.
They know better.

I have it perfectly straight. Scientifically free will is non-existent. There is no evidence to support it aside from a human feeling of separation. By your logic, people "knew better" when they burned witches for bad crops.

 

[Thief]

I have it perfectly straight. Scientifically free will is non-existent. There is no evidence to support it aside from a human feeling of separation. By your logic, people "knew better" when they burned witches for bad crops.

And by your logic the event was unavoidable due to chemistry.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

And by your logic the event was unavoidable due to chemistry.

Possibly avoided by chemistry, but definitely unavoidable by physics. Your point?

 

[Thief]

Possibly avoided by chemistry, but definitely unavoidable by physics. Your point?

So now the laws of physics (not chemistry) are the cause for your next response?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

So now the laws of physics (not chemistry) are the cause for your next response?

And to be even more accurate, mathematics itself.

 

[idav]

So now the laws of physics (not chemistry) are the cause for your next response?

I blame everyone on RF. No freewill or choice on my part.:no:

 

[Sir Doom]

I believe in free will (although I really don't understand what the distinction between free will and regular will is) mostly because I'd just rather it was this way. I'm not one to surrender power in any situation without good reason. I see no reason why the idea that I am in control of my future to a certain degree must be abandoned.

I understand that the current state of my being is the result of a vast, functionally unknowable chain of events. Each event in the chain was additionally the result of a vast, functionally unknowable chain of events. But it isn't every event in the chain that is unknowable. It is only the total. There are some factors beyond perception and beyond practicality to examine. However, this is not the case with all of the events in any chain.

Some events were conceived of intentionally, perpetrated by me intentionally and resulted in the intended results. Further, when these events were conceived of (prior to their manifestation in reality) parallel events were also conceived of and one event was selected intentionally for the perceived results of that event and steps to manifest the selected event were conceived and perpetrated.

Now, it is easy for anyone to say that whatever options I presented myself with were limited by reality and thus I couldn't freely choose any option I desired. I am willing to accept this. A lack of omnipotence does not equate to a lack of choice. This is still willpower to me, free or otherwise.

Additionally, it is easy to say that chain of events leading to the conception of these options determined which choice I would ultimately select and my intentions are only the illusion of intention. To this I say, the chain of events leading to the conception additionally consisted of many similar conceptions. Further, as I said before the chain of events is inexplicable. There is no suitable description of the chain of events. Thus, it is mostly speculative to suggest that the any event is the result of the past and only the past.

I understand that I am heavily influenced by my environment and my physical makeup. I am a product of nature and nurture. I am bound by physical reality. But these things are likewise influenced by me. I have modified my physical makeup intentionally. I have nurtured myself through trial and error. I have modified physical reality intentionally. These things bend to my will. To me, this suggests that my will is no illusion. My intentions create reality, they aren't created by it.

I firmly believe that the perceived future is what influences my decisions far more heavily than any preceding events or outside factors.

 

[Skwim]

I firmly believe that the perceived future is what influences my decisions far more heavily than any preceding events or outside factors.

But the perceived future is a preceeding event itself.

 

[Sir Doom]

But the perceived future is a preceeding event itself.

You mean perceiving the future is a preceding event. Not the perceived future itself.

 

[Skwim]

You mean perceiving the future is a preceding event. Not the perceived future itself.

Yes. The future perceived (intransitive verb) is a preceeding event itself.

 

[Thief]

I believe in free will (although I really don't understand what the distinction between free will and regular will is) mostly because I'd just rather it was this way. I'm not one to surrender power in any situation without good reason. I see no reason why the idea that I am in control of my future to a certain degree must be abandoned.

I understand that the current state of my being is the result of a vast, functionally unknowable chain of events. Each event in the chain was additionally the result of a vast, functionally unknowable chain of events. But it isn't every event in the chain that is unknowable. It is only the total. There are some factors beyond perception and beyond practicality to examine. However, this is not the case with all of the events in any chain.

Some events were conceived of intentionally, perpetrated by me intentionally and resulted in the intended results. Further, when these events were conceived of (prior to their manifestation in reality) parallel events were also conceived of and one event was selected intentionally for the perceived results of that event and steps to manifest the selected event were conceived and perpetrated.

Now, it is easy for anyone to say that whatever options I presented myself with were limited by reality and thus I couldn't freely choose any option I desired. I am willing to accept this. A lack of omnipotence does not equate to a lack of choice. This is still willpower to me, free or otherwise.

Additionally, it is easy to say that chain of events leading to the conception of these options determined which choice I would ultimately select and my intentions are only the illusion of intention. To this I say, the chain of events leading to the conception additionally consisted of many similar conceptions. Further, as I said before the chain of events is inexplicable. There is no suitable description of the chain of events. Thus, it is mostly speculative to suggest that the any event is the result of the past and only the past.

I understand that I am heavily influenced by my environment and my physical makeup. I am a product of nature and nurture. I am bound by physical reality. But these things are likewise influenced by me. I have modified my physical makeup intentionally. I have nurtured myself through trial and error. I have modified physical reality intentionally. These things bend to my will. To me, this suggests that my will is no illusion. My intentions create reality, they aren't created by it.

I firmly believe that the perceived future is what influences my decisions far more heavily than any preceding events or outside factors.

I agree as highlighted.

Choice is the item of proof.

In circumstances of no choice, I respond as such.
Like self defense to avoid harm.

But there has been more than one occasion to stand ground and look my opponent in the eye....after he bruised my check.
I left the 'choice' to him if we might...proceed.

 

[Sir Doom]

Yes. The future perceived (intransitive verb) is a preceeding event itself.

I'm really not sure what you are driving at.

 

[Octavia156]

I understand that I am heavily influenced by my environment and my physical makeup. I am a product of nature and nurture. I am bound by physical reality. But these things are likewise influenced by me. I have modified my physical makeup intentionally. I have nurtured myself through trial and error. I have modified physical reality intentionally. These things bend to my will. To me, this suggests that my will is no illusion. My intentions create reality, they aren't created by it.

I firmly believe that the perceived future is what influences my decisions far more heavily than any preceding events or outside factors.

:takeabow:

 

[idav]

Yes. The future perceived (intransitive verb) is a preceeding event itself.

True but at the point one can calculate to predict, then you just calculate an alternative which makes the outcome probabalistic. Only one thing can happen which will ultimately be determined but not yet.

 

[Skwim]

True but at the point one can calculate to predict, then you just calculate an alternative which makes the outcome probabalistic. Only one thing can happen which will ultimately be determined but not yet.

But in truth, the outcome can never be other than what the preceeding events determine---no probability about it; therefore, while one's calculation may be phrased as a probability, in truth, only one outcome is ever possible. To suppose that the actual outcome is probabalistc is a mistake.

 

[idav]

But in truth, the outcome can never be other than what the preceeding events determine---no probability about it; therefore, while one's calculation may be phrased as a probability, in truth, only one outcome is ever possible. To suppose that the actual outcome is probabalistc is a mistake.

A calculated prediction hasn't yet happened.

 

[Thief]

A calculated prediction hasn't yet happened.

Now hold on there!

When Einstein published his paper even he had doubts....however...

The proving was made by observation and stellar photography.
His work predicted a shift in position of APPARENT star patterns as light is affected by gravity when passing by other stellar bodies.

This could be observed and photographed during a total eclipse.

It took years to place the equipment and 'be there' when it happened.
And the photos proved him right.

Now if we proceed to willful efforts of hand?.....

 

[Skwim]

A calculated prediction hasn't yet happened.

When you said, "True but at the point one can calculate to predict," I assumed this "point" you refer to here is when one "just calculate an alternative."