Free Will

[Thief]

Was Judas written about before his time?

Prophecy?

I know the drill.

See your fellow man.
See where the everyday routine is headed.
See that Someone will say 'Stop it!....we should do something else.'

Someone will attempt to keep the status quo or move to an agenda of his own.
Betrayal.

Now, that's not to say I discount precognition.
I am alive because I 'felt' that car accident coming!!!!
(nice to have angels tapping on your shoulder...so to speak)

 

[Sleeppy]

Prophecy?

I know the drill.

See your fellow man.
See where the everyday routine is headed.
See that Someone will say 'Stop it!....we should do something else.'

Someone will attempt to keep the status quo or move to an agenda of his own.
Betrayal.

Now, that's not to say I discount precognition.
I am alive because I 'felt' that car accident coming!!!!
(nice to have angels tapping on your shoulder...so to speak)

John 17:12

When I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled.

The world betrays God, though God creates the world by His word. His word is not able to be made void. God's will is not able to be subverted by the wills of His creation; it is however His word subverting us, when we attempt to claim anything apart from Him, including will. Free will is an illusion we must all partake in (all life forms), capable of being both a blessing and a curse; a double edged sword.

 

[Thief]

John 17:12


The world betrays God, though God creates the world by His word. His word is not able to be made void. God's will is not able to be subverted by the wills of His creation; it is however His word subverting us, when we attempt to claim anything apart from Him, including will. Free will is an illusion we must all partake in (all life forms), capable of being both a blessing and a curse; a double edged sword.

From another thread moments ago....I quote myself.

In metaphor and then to terms....
A doubled edged sword cuts to the left and to the right.
If you stand in opposition...you will be cut.

In practice, I see it as His word spoken and the angelic obey.
If He forbids that you follow, the angels will draw line in the dust.
You will go no further.
(my sense of meaning)

As for freewill....I believe it.
My hand does what I think I should...what I feel like doing.

I can blame no one else.

 

[Sleeppy]

From another thread moments ago....I quote myself.

In metaphor and then to terms....
A doubled edged sword cuts to the left and to the right.
If you stand in opposition...you will be cut.

In practice, I see it as His word spoken and the angelic obey.
If He forbids that you follow, the angels will draw line in the dust.
You will go no further.
(my sense of meaning)

As for freewill....I believe it.
My hand does what I think I should...what I feel like doing.

I can blame no one else.

But you did not create your hand; nor do you know the myriad of things occurring between the cells and atoms which form your hand. You aren't able to determine the number of hairs, or creases, or the size of your hand; these were determined with God's word, in the very beginning. God knows these things, but you observe and claim them for yourself.

Matthew 5:33-37

'Again, ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not swear falsely, but thou shalt pay to the Lord thine oaths; but I -- I say to you, not to swear at all; neither by the heaven, because it is the throne of God, nor by the earth, because it is His footstool, nor by Jerusalem, because it is a city of a great king, nor by thy head mayest thou swear, because thou art not able one hair to make white or black; but let your word be, Yes, Yes, No, No, and that which is more than these is of the evil.'

 

[Skwim]

So determinism doesn't imply that say a computer which new all past events leading up to this moment could correctly determine the next?

No, because simply knowing the factors doesn't necessarily mean they will be correctly assessed. However, if there were such an infallible assessment machine then, yes, it could.

However the fact is, apparently, people make choices, but since you don't believe in the uncaused cause it is necessary to deny the apparent.

Sorry, but I'm not up to going back and revisiting the thread of this particular issue so as to give you a proper answer---there's just too much other stuff we're dealing with here.

Random events have nothing to do with freewill. Uncaused actions have nothing to do with freewill. Freewill requires that a person acts according to their will which happens to be a cause.

And what determines the nature of the will?

Like using the wrong equation?

Possibly.

Volition just means acting according to your will. You do have a will don't you? And you make decisions because of your will that result in you taking actions don't you?

Define "will." I ask because people often have very different ideas of what the word signifies.

You said yourself that we make choices is only apparent.

Apparent in the sense of seemingly so. In reality choice, as in choosing, doesn't exist.

So determinism is what is not apparent.

Certainly not in the sense that choice is. Determinism is the mechanism by which events are manifested. X happens because it was caused (determined) by Y. For Z to happen instead of X, then something other than Y would have to be the precursor of the "X or Z event."

Determinism remains a theory.

So, just how does this theory read? And remember, theories have to be falsifiable.

If it is only mechanics no will, no volition is needed.

Speculating about your definition of "will," in a sense you are quite right. For gear H to turn counterclockwise, gears,A, B, C, D, E, F, and G would all have to turn a certain way. There is no choosing H to turn counterclockwise.

God is assumed, like determinism. Explanations are developed from these assumptions.

I disagree. Lacking verifiable evidence, god is a creation of belief and sustained by faith. On the other hand, determinism arises as the default explanation of events (some subatomic instances aside). Simply postulating a mechanism such as will demands that the term (will) be well defined, and in a way that doesn't employ cause/effect phenomena: no use of words like "because."

Freewill is an incredibly simple concept although passionately argued against by people who have a stake in determinism.

It's only simple because people don't bother to examine its implications. They throw it out there as a simple given, which is why I ask you to give it, and "freewill," hardy definitions. Definitions that stand apart from any hint of cause/effect.

So as your hand obeys your freewill......
Your hand does as you think you should or because you felt like it.....
Then God is NOT in the background guiding your moves to a predestined end?

I certainly hope not.

It may help you to understand where I'm coming from to read THIS thread I created some time ago.

 

[idav]

Causal Determinism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)



What type of test could we perform, without affecting the results?

Many worlds keeps the deterministic properties, whatever they might be. I havent heard good things about the boehm interpretation, that the math cant account for relativity and the math for a wave function is not deterministic. We can observe the quantum state these days, quantum computing is in full force utilizing quantum states and entanglement.

 

[Sleeppy]

Many worlds keeps the deterministic properties, whatever they might be. I havent heard good things about the boehm interpretation, that the math cant account for relativity and the math for a wave function is not deterministic. We can observe the quantum state these days, quantum computing is in full force utilizing quantum states and entanglement.

Read the link; section 4.4. There are major and minor problems with every theory so far.

 

[idav]

Read the link; section 4.4. There are major and minor problems with every theory so far.

I did read it. Intersting enough. I read that mwi resolves all the issues and goes with quantum decoherence which is what they are using in quantum computing.

MWI removes the observer-dependent role in the*quantum measurement*process by replacing*wavefunction collapse*withquantum decoherence. Since the role of the observer lies at the heart of most if not all "quantum paradoxes," this automatically resolves a number of problems; see for example*Schrödinger's cat*thought experiment, the*EPR paradox,von Neumann's "boundary problem" and even*wave-particle duality.*Quantum cosmology*also becomes intelligible, since there is no need anymore for an observer outside of the universe.

Many-worlds interpretation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Nakosis]

For actions to be set in stone their prior cause would have to be responsible for a determined effect. What happens when a prior cause is quantum is that its physical state is not a factor therefore any effect is possible and not determined by newtonian physics.

That concept would have to apply to decision making in the brain. I think the brain works thst way with many parralel simultaneous thoughts and processes. So that any given influence can never be enough to override all other influences which would give the actual freedom to do other than what mechanics would do.

I have been looking at quantum computing and it is giving sure signs this is possible. Especially considering the fact that the brain is so powerful it will absolutely take a quantum computer to achieve what the brain can do. We already use qm for basic computer functionality. In the q computers it isnt just 1s and zeros but can be both simultaneously allowing for parralel processing, multiple processes simultaneously. Quantum computing proves the reality and application of superpositions of particles in quantum states.

So a quantum event in the brain could trigger an decision who's cause is not predictable because the result of the quantum event itself cannot be directly linked as being the caused by any other prior event?

If the brain is capable of un-caused event then the brain is capable of making decisions that result from uncaused events.

One's will could be the result of un-caused quantum events? Which means determinism is wrong.

 

[idav]

So a quantum event in the brain could trigger an decision who's cause is not predictable because the result of the quantum event itself cannot be directly linked as being the caused by any other prior event?

If the brain is capable of un-caused event then the brain is capable of making decisions that result from uncaused events.

One's will could be the result of un-caused quantum events? Which means determinism is wrong.

I do think determinism is wrong and many who study quantum mechanics agree. Studying the brain in this respect is difficult to say the least. However because the foundation of reality is dependent on quantum, determinism has been in trouble.

 

[Skwim]

One's will could be the result of un-caused quantum events? Which means determinism is wrong.

And it would if the mind was, in fact, controlled by quantum events; however, it's not. Look at post 20 to see why not.

Plus:

Based on a calculation of neural decoherence rates, we argue that that the degrees of freedom of the human brain that relate to cognitive processes should be thought of as a classical rather than quantum system, i.e., that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the current classical approach to neural network simulations. We find that the decoherence timescales ~10^{-13}-10^{-20} seconds are typically much shorter than the relevant dynamical timescales (~0.001-0.1 seconds), both for regular neuron firing and for kink-like polarization excitations in microtubules.
source
​

I do think determinism is wrong and many who study quantum mechanics agree.

Assuming that your "many who study" refers to those who actually do study QM, i.e. quantum physicists, please list a few of these people along with your source of this information.

 

[Curious George]

Where does free will originate? How does it work, exactly?.. Is it dependant on the brain, at all?

Free will comes from the conscious. While it is debatable whether the conscious is actually has control or whether the conscious is a slave to sub conscious factors only. We cannot deny at least the illusion of control exists. Thus, our reality appears to bear witness to our conscious manipulations as a causal factor. These manipulations are what we note as freewill, because we believe we control the conscious. This illusion or reality serves us well. Without this illusion our actions become meaningless, our quest for knowledge- meaningless. This thread - meaningless. Such events would serve just as well if they were random.

Similar to inductive reasoning which must be assumed, freewill must too be assumed. If one chases down cause and effect they are in for a spiders nest, so too is the case for will. Sure we can take notions--like "what if everything I see is just an illusion," "what if nothing truly exists," or "what if there is no will"-- into consideration. But whether illusion or reality at the end of the day, we operate as though will exists, as though everything we sense exists, and as all of this including will is reality. Even the staunchest determinist clings to notions of control--whether real or imagined.

 

[idav]

[/INDENT] Assuming that your "many who study" refers to those who actually do study QM, i.e. quantum physicists, please list a few of these people along with your source of this information.

Well qm has quite a history but here are a few.

Pioneer in quantum computing.
Richard Feynman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Specialized in quantum mechanics and its relation to consciousness.
Fred Alan Wolf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pioneer in quantum gravity and developed an equation with dewitt governing the " wave function of the universe".
John Archibald Wheeler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

First to introduce many world interpretation.
Hugh Everett III - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Skwim]

Free will comes from the conscious..While it is debatable whether the conscious is actually has control or whether the conscious is a slave to sub conscious factors only. We cannot deny at least the illusion of control exists. Thus, our reality appears to bear witness to our conscious manipulations as a causal factor. These manipulations are what we note as freewill, because we believe we control the conscious. This illusion or reality serves us well. Without this illusion our actions become meaningless,

Only if one insists that meaning is only found in an "I did it all by myself" framework.

our quest for knowledge- meaningless.

Not at all. Finding out stuff, no matter how it originates, always leaves us more informed then before. And personally, I sometimes delight in new found knowledge, even though I had no say in receiving it.

Similar to inductive reasoning which must be assumed, freewill must too be assumed.

Only if one has a stake in it, which, I believe, all Christians do.

 

[Curious George]

Only if one insists that meaning is only found in an "I did it all by myself" framework.

Not at all. Finding out stuff, no matter how it originates, always leaves us more informed then before. And personally, I sometimes delight in new found knowledge, even though I had no say in receiving it.

Only if one has a stake in it, which, I believe, all Christians do.

Nope.

Meaning derives from some semblance of control. Your delight is telling though. Why delight in an achievement if it is not at all an achievement. Alas, you have no control over that in which you do or do not delight.
Meaning is a human construct based on control. What other meaning can you find?

Sure Christians have a stake in will. But so too does every person.

Good day.

 

[Thief]

But you did not create your hand; nor do you know the myriad of things occurring between the cells and atoms which form your hand. You aren't able to determine the number of hairs, or creases, or the size of your hand; these were determined with God's word, in the very beginning. God knows these things, but you observe and claim them for yourself.

Matthew 5:33-37

He set the stage.
I play as well as I can.

 

[Sleeppy]

He set the stage.
I play as well as I can.

Not only did God set the stage; He created the props, the actors/actresses, and wrote the script. The same way the Sun does what is intended, according to God's word, is the same way you are doing what God intends- even if I am not able to convince you of this. Reality is God's will being done; on Earth, as it is in heaven.

 

[Thief]

Not only did God set the stage; He created the props, the actors/actresses, and wrote the script. The same way the Sun does what is intended, according to God's word, is the same way you are doing what God intends- even if I am not able to convince you of this. Reality is God's will being done; on Earth, as it is in heaven.

Okay....the creation has rules and the rules seem firm.
(though some prophets seem able to flex the reality)

As for me....my piece of the 'script' is ...ad-lib....

 

[Nakosis]

One problem with determinism is then we have to accept that the mass-murderer had no other choice except to be a mass-murder. Serial killers, rapists, child-molesters have no responsibility for their actions. They could not have done other than what they did. Punishment, judgement the concept of society enforcing consequences serves no purpose. It is not their fault.

Why feel guilty about any action since a person has no actual choice?

 

[Sleeppy]

One problem with determinism is then we have to accept that the mass-murderer had no other choice except to be a mass-murder. Serial killers, rapists, child-molesters have no responsibility for their actions. They could not have done other than what they did. Punishment, judgement the concept of society enforcing consequences serves no purpose. It is not their fault.

Why feel guilty about any action since a person has no actual choice?

If you acknowledge the nature of human beings- of animals in general- you should have no problem. These criminals are the result of their genes acting according to environmental stimuli; a lot of them have been victims themselves. They all have mental illnesses or other problems originating in their brains, which cause them to think and act as they do. These are medical, and social/psychological problems that we can cure altogether.. Our current methods have proved inefficient for thousands of years; killing and locking up criminals does not prevent recurring criminal behavior in our societies.