Free Will

[Sundance]

@DJ_sXe , I am so in "like" of everything you've written here and have been since the moment you posted it. Hesitated for days, but please, if it is not offensive, may I ask if the scriptures of Baha'i faith are translations from an original tongue? The reason I ask is, in Hinduism we would not say, for instance, that "something" has to happen before Beloved lives eternally in us. We do not live, move and have being if it were not already so. The 'turning away from thyself' is totally understandable (we call it ahankar, ego), yes, very good thing. Also, surrendering one's will, oh yes. So, in Baha'i, can you please clarify this point for me? Does God dwell "within" in the manner I'm suggesting? I do not know how to call this concept in Baha'i language.

Wow! Uhhh....I'm actually quite speechless! Thank you, Swamiji! I'll try to answer your questions as thoroughly as possible.

#1) Yes, the Bahá’í Writings were translated originally from Persian and Arabic, the two languages which Bahá’u’lláh spoke and had written in.


#2) My understanding of that is that God, although far, far removed from us directly, has – through His Inspiration – planted the small seeds of His Love and the knowledge of His Names and Attributes in all of our hearts (and indeed, in all creation). Those Messengers of God ( or, as we Bahá’ís know them, ‘Manifestations of the Names and Attributes of God’) (Abraham, Moses, Krishna, The Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, The Báb, Bahá’u’lláh, among countless others) who have been raised up by God since time immemorial – through His Revelation – have brought to humankind those Laws, Teachings, Practices, etc. designed to cultivate His Love and the knowledge of His Names and Attributes in our hearts and lives. Through following the Light as it radiates through those Divine Lamps, thereby submitting to the Will of God, the Plan of God, I believe God’s Presence comes to eternally dwell in every one of us!


#3) There is no specific word for that concept, Swamiji. Though, if I were able to give it a description, I would describe it as that “ocean of peace that truly passes all understanding”.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

'The will of the Lord is the only will'. Is this true or false? Discuss. Debate.

I have no lord, so false.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Wow! Uhhh....I'm actually quite speechless! Thank you, Swamiji! I'll try to answer your questions as thoroughly as possible.

#1) Yes, the Bahá’í Writings were translated originally from Persian and Arabic, the two languages which Bahá’u’lláh spoke and had written in.


#2) My understanding of that is that God, although far, far removed from us directly, has – through His Inspiration – planted the small seeds of His Love and the knowledge of His Names and Attributes in all of our hearts (and indeed, in all creation). Those Messengers of God ( or, as we Bahá’ís know them, ‘Manifestations of the Names and Attributes of God’) (Abraham, Moses, Krishna, The Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, The Báb, Bahá’u’lláh, among countless others) who have been raised up by God since time immemorial – through His Revelation – have brought to humankind those Laws, Teachings, Practices, etc. designed to cultivate His Love and the knowledge of His Names and Attributes in our hearts and lives. Through following the Light as it radiates through those Divine Lamps, thereby submitting to the Will of God, the Plan of God, I believe God’s Presence comes to eternally dwell in every one of us!


#3) There is no specific word for that concept, Swamiji. Though, if I were able to give it a description, I would describe it as that “ocean of peace that truly passes all understanding”.

Thank you so very much for taking the time and trouble to answer, DJ_. I don't know why I can't let this go; I think I had yet to find a single core difference in Baha'i to Hinduism up to this point and I still don't want to believe it. "...comes to eternally dwell in every one..." means God is not currently dwelling, right? I do not speak Persian or Arabic and you ref the "Hidden Words" but not page # this time, like in your signature. Is there any possibility we could point @Smart_Guy maybe or somebody to the original text and they could discover if it's something other than "may" (conditionally) live eternally, and more like "reveal that I already do." In Hinduism, this is the idea that as small self (thyself, above or ego, ahankar) is surrendered, the already indwelling Truth is free to and will manifest more fully, like that. If this simply is not the case for Baha'i, okey dokey, I'll live with it and continue to enjoy your sharing this remarkable tradition of yours, so full of devotion to God. Yummy.

 

[Sundance]

Thank you so very much for taking the time and trouble to answer, DJ_. I don't know why I can't let this go; I think I had yet to find a single core difference in Baha'i to Hinduism up to this point and I still don't want to believe it. "...comes to eternally dwell in every one..." means God is not currently dwelling, right? I do not speak Persian or Arabic and you ref the "Hidden Words" but not page # this time, like in your signature. Is there any possibility we could point @Smart_Guy maybe or somebody to the original text and they could discover if it's something other than "may" (conditionally) live eternally, and more like "reveal that I already do." In Hinduism, this is the idea that as small self (thyself, above or ego, ahankar) is surrendered, the already indwelling Truth is free to and will manifest more fully, like that. If this simply is not the case for Baha'i, okey dokey, I'll live with it and continue to enjoy your sharing this remarkable tradition of yours, so full of devotion to God. Yummy.

Swamiji, God is already present in the hearts of everyone, I believe, through the Presence of His Names and Attributes. When we cultivate those Godly things in our lives, we begin to further allow God’s Presence to grow inside of us, making our hearts and lives radiant with the fires of His Love! So, there exists, I think, a bit of similarity here. Also, that second ‘may’ is not necessarily a conditional may (used as ‘might’), rather it is a ‘may’ of allowance.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Swamiji, God is already present in the hearts of everyone, I believe, through the Presence of His Names and Attributes. When we cultivate those Godly things in our lives, we begin to allow God to live inside of us, making our hearts and lives radiant with the fires of His Love! Also, that ‘may’ is not necessarily a conditional may (used as ‘might’), rather it is a ‘may’ of allowance.

Oh, that clears it up perfectly! Namaste! Thank you, again DJ_.
"Fires of His Love, exclamation point!" You're speakin' my language now, for sure!!!

 

[Sundance]

Oh, that clears it up perfectly! Namaste! Thank you, again DJ_.
"Fires of His Love, exclamation point!" You're speakin' my language now, for sure!!!

Anytime, Swamiji! Yá Bahá’u’l-Abhá!

 

[DawudTalut]

'The will of the Lord is the only will'. Is this true or false? Discuss. Debate.

Peace be on you.
1- We are born to certain parents, at certain place at certain time.......It is not free Will.
2- Do good or bad, it is free Will.
3- But what will come after doing bad in this physical world and in the life to come [accountability] it will not be freeWill.
4- Raise one leg is free Will, raising two legs simultaneously [without technique] is not freeWill.

Lord's Will has 2 parts. His Will. His Willful permission for us to go either way; good or bad.

More aspects @ PREDESTINY

 

[Smart_Guy]

Is there any possibility we could point @Smart_Guy maybe or somebody to the original text...

I'm at your disposal, ma'am

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

I'm at your disposal, ma'am

Oh! VERY cool, thank you Smart_Guy! Let me see if DJ_ will indulge me in this quest for Baha'i jnana. @DJ_sXe, are you permitted to share the "Hidden Words" in the original Persian or Arabic text you referred to so SG can take a look at it for us? I'm NOT trying to rearrange your scripture, I'm trying to suck the very marrow out of it. Inquiring minds want to know! A million thanks in advance. SVJ

 

[Sundance]

I will do my best, but I verily accept this challenge that will be, by necessity, a team effort between myself and another amazing Bahá’í on the forums, @arthra.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

That, my dear, will be, by necessity, a team effort between myself and another amazing Bahá’í on the forums, @arthra.

@DJ_sXe, @arthra, @Smart_Guy: GO TEAM!! (Does anybody sleep around here? )

 

[Smart_Guy]

But remember guys, my contribution will be just Arabic language support because I'm an Arab. No ill intentions will be intended by anything I might say by my translation.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

But remember guys, my contribution will be just Arabic language support because I'm an Arab. No ill intentions will be intended by anything I might say by my translation.

That's a given, SG. No worries.

 

[Sabour]

'The will of the Lord is the only will'. Is this true or false? Discuss. Debate.

We have free will in the sense that we have the freedom to choose what do we do in our lives on a daily basis. However, there are things we have no word over and our free will is limited.

God's will is unlimited meaning that He can do whatever He wants. However, being able to do so doesn't mean He would do anything. God has some attributes which are constant and don't change and it is God who chose to be like this. And As you know, if God wants to maintain the same attributes, this means that God doesn't do certain actions that are contradictory to one of His attributes. It isn't because of inability, it is because of the choice He made.

 

[morphesium]

'The will of the Lord is the only will'. Is this true or false? Discuss. Debate.

Things are a lot perplexing to me regarding these matters.

Our will arises from our consciousness. What we hear, see , think are all just the end result of electrical activities in the brain. It takes a few milliseconds of electrical processing in the brain before we realize something consciously, even if it is our thinking. Scientists, with the help of modern technology, can know in advance ( by a few milliseconds though) what our decisions would be and can even alter them to some extent. Our conscious thoughts and actions can retune our subconscious brain which in turn effects our conscious thoughts. So to what extent do we have a freewill or do we really have a freewill?

Life on earth began as a result of evolution. Simple molecules over time aggregate to form protocells, prokaryotes, eukaryotes and then eventually multicellular organisms. consciousness and intelligence evolved along the process. Similarly, this is happening in the digital world. Machines are becoming more and more intelligent (though it is artificial intelligence as we call it, it is becoming truly intelligent, exactly like us). For this reason, I do believe that as computers gets more complex and more intelligent, consciousness would just evolve along the process, and it would be conscious of its surroundings in a far better way than we are with their far advanced artificial sensors.

When we talk about the will of God, aren't we attributing human qualities to God. How do we know God is conscious (in order to have freewill)? To judge our actions? to punish us or sent to heaven? (Much of these concepts arises from the need to pacify ourselves at times or distress or injustice and so on). What is the point we being punished when we are not totally responsible for our actions?

Its only through science that we can know the nature of the universe, the nature of our intelligence and our thoughts, our psychology etc. Our religion (what ever it be) has changed a lot from the days of its conception. Old concepts will eventually be replaced by more advanced and scientific ones. I hope we would have a better understanding of soul, freewill, God, death etc then.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

One thing that did make me curious; I was watching a show with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and he said one of his colleagues is a Male-to-Female transsexual, and that she was saying that the effects of hormones was so profound that she came to doubt freewill.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

'The will of the Lord is the only will'. Is this true or false? Discuss. Debate.

According to Scripture, God created creation with their own free-will choices to either accept God's will (His purpose) or Not accept it.
The will ( purpose ) of the Lord is the only will ( purpose ) that can succeed.
History has proven that man has unjustly used his free will to dominate man to man's injury or hurt - Ecclesiastes 8:9
Man has Not been able to direct his step - Jeremiah 10:23 - so we need someone to step in.
According to Scripture, God will have Jesus step in and undo all the damage that Satan and Adam brought upon the human race - Revelation 22:2

 

[columbus]

One thing that did make me curious; I was watching a show with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and he said one of his colleagues is a Male-to-Female transsexual, and that she was saying that the effects of hormones was so profound that she came to doubt freewill.

This sort of thing is why I don't believe humans really have free will. Our agency, freedom to choose, is largely determined by things like brain chemistry and what we did or didn't learn when we were young.

If a person doesn't learn to avoid chemical alterations to their brain and becomes a heroin addict, they might do horrible things. Similarly, a mental patient who gets treatment like lithium suddenly stops making stupid and destructive choices. Are they more free or less so?
Neither was ever really free, because humans aren't free to do anything except what our limited mental functions and knowledge cause us to believe is in our own best interests. That is often excruciatingly dysfunctional and ignorant. Then there is the chemistry.

Tom

 

[arthra]

I will do my best, but I verily accept this challenge that will be, by necessity, a team effort between myself and another amazing Bahá’í on the forums, @arthra.

يَا ابْنَ البَشَرِ

إِنْ تُحِبَّ نَفْسي فَأَعْرِضْ عَنْ نَفْسِكَ، وَإِنْ تُرِدْ رِضائِي فَأَغْمِضْ عَنْ رِضائِكَ، لِتَكُونَ فِيَّ فانِياً وَأَكُونَ فِيْكَ باقِياً.

Source:


http://bahaiprayers.net/HiddenWords/العربية/6

 

[Sundance]

يَا ابْنَ البَشَرِ

إِنْ تُحِبَّ نَفْسي فَأَعْرِضْ عَنْ نَفْسِكَ، وَإِنْ تُرِدْ رِضائِي فَأَغْمِضْ عَنْ رِضائِكَ، لِتَكُونَ فِيَّ فانِياً وَأَكُونَ فِيْكَ باقِياً.

Source:


http://bahaiprayers.net/HiddenWords/العربية/6

WOW! Yá Bahá’u’l-Abhá! Thank you immensely, art! You are so amazing! I'm incredibly grateful!