Free will

[Jeremiah Ames]

You are free to swing your first unless my face is in the way.
Free Will always has some limits in a civilized society.
Most people don't want to see you naked for example, so you should respect that.

actually, I am free to swing my fist, EVEN IF your face is in the way
and then I am free to blame you for putting your face there
civilized society won’t stop that from happening, since it happens all the time in civilized society
I must CHOOSE to NOT do it

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Kind of a paradox isn't it?

no doubt

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

I don't believe in free will. I believe we have determinants that affect our agency and thereby because of that, we have no absolute freedom to act because actions are determined by something else. I would be interested in someone explaining to me how my agency is not determined by something else. For example, I'm in Jack N' the Box eating a cheeseburger. I'm on my laptop as I'm typing this. I'm not on religiousforums.com because of some random autonomous action or action independent of desire or motivation, I'm using my autonomy because for one, I'm autonomous so long as I have agency, but my autonomy is determined by factors such as boredom and curiosity of responses to my posts, two elements that have determined m will to act. I don't think we have actions outside the effects of being determined by something else.

i may understand that a little

but it’s a bit blurry for me

are you saying that “boredom” can affect your free will?

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

When you leave your house you can choose to turn left ot right.
You can choose to get out of bed or have another 10 minutes.
You can choose to work or not to work.

There are however constraints, perhaps the only way to reach the shops is bt turning left.
Maybe the kids have to have breakfast before school so that extra 10 minutes is a no no
Of course you need to earn money to live, work is the most usual way of earned money.

But ultimately it's your own choice. The very few things you have no free will for is taxes and death

wait a minute, I was with you until the last sentence

don’t many people choose not to pay taxes?

and some people try to avoid death, but so far none have succeeded
yet some have chosen euthanasia, to choose their time of death

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

don’t many people choose not to pay taxes?

*scratches head*

 

[JoshuaTree]

When you leave your house you can choose to turn left ot right.
You can choose to get out of bed or have another 10 minutes.
You can choose to work or not to work.

There are however constraints, perhaps the only way to reach the shops is bt turning left.
Maybe the kids have to have breakfast before school so that extra 10 minutes is a no no
Of course you need to earn money to live, work is the most usual way of earned money.

But ultimately it's your own choice. The very few things you have no free will for is taxes and death

Is blind choice free will or random chance?

 

[ChristineM]

wait a minute, I was with you until the last sentence

don’t many people choose not to pay taxes?

and some people try to avoid death, but so far none have succeeded
yet some have chosen euthanasia, to choose their time of death

Some choose not to pay taxes, to do so they must be very rich and able to pay substantial amount in bribe money, and it it goes pear shaped in the future then maybe a prison term awaits.

As for death, no matter how addictive life is, death always wins in the end.

 

[ChristineM]

Is blind choice free will or random chance?

Why blind? One usually makes the choices one makes rationally on sound data.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

When it comes to free will, I think that many of us discount or ignore the influence and role that pre-wired instinctual behaviors play in our decision-making processes.

I will relay a anecdote from my family. My wife and two of our daughters (college age) were visiting my wife's brother and his son and daughter. After an afternoon of visiting, they decided to all go out for dinner. The female cousin (H.S. Senior) went upstairs and changed clothes. When she returned, my daughters immediately began teasing her because she had dressed up. The cousin fled upstairs and changed again.

In analyzing the behaviors exhibited, I would argue the teasing from my daughters was not a conscious, willed act on their part. It was a reflexive emotional response to their cousins change of clothes. My daughters were in shorts and t-shirt (traveling after vacationing at a lake) and their cousin's action clashed with their perceived group expectation. The cousin dressed up because in her local friend group, to dress up is the expectation of the group when one goes shopping or out for the evening. Did the cousin exert free will when changing to dress up? When the cousin fled to change again, was that expressing free will or was it a reflexive, emotional response to comply with group expectation.
The cousins are close and loving with each other. When I asked my daughters why tease her, couldn't their cousin go dressed up if she liked, they responded by saying "of course she could, we were just joking around."

I would make the argument that no one involved was making rational, well thought decisions. They were responding reflexively and emotionally before thought ever came into it.

Might one say there was a suspension of free will under these circumstances? Are we a slave to reflexive emotional responses, however? No. We can recognize them when they occur and take a beat to decide how best to respond. The trick is learning when we are responding reflexively. Will is asserted when we recognize a triggered instinctive behavior and either counter the reflexive response or make the conscious decision to roll with the reflexive response.

thanks for that very thoughtful response

sadly, in my experience, I have often been a slave to my reflexive emotional response

that is something I’m dealing with at this particular time of my life, and I’m consciously making an effort to see it for what it is, and attempt to choose a better path

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

*scratches head*


View attachment 52580

of course, if society works properly, they end up in jail

Al Capone comes to mind

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

of course, if society works properly, they end up in jail

Al Capone comes to mind

I see.

I knew a highly educated conservative once who explained free will by saying that we have all the freedom in the world to make our own decisions, and the freedom to accept the consequences of those decisions.

I disagreed with them then, and disagree even more now. But he still presented a really good explanation and case, for what he believed.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

of course, if society works properly, they end up in jail

Al Capone comes to mind

i made a conscious choice NOT to pay taxes for many years now

i have had the opportunity to pay some money in taxes, $3 I think it is, which will go to politicians

but have made the choice to pass

maybe that isn’t the same concept

 

[shunyadragon]

actually, I am free to swing my fist, EVEN IF your face is in the way
and then I am free to blame you for putting your face there
civilized society won’t stop that from happening, since it happens all the time in civilized society
I must CHOOSE to NOT do it

Actually no. You may or may not, but your choices are limited by at least the chain of events leading to your choice.

If what you say is true that it is simply a choice the world would be a barroom brawl.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Actually no. You may or may not, but your choices are limited by at least the chain of events leading to your choice.

If what you say is true that it is simply a choice the world would be a barroom brawl.

i think I’m starting to understand your point

I appreciate you continuing to share your thoughts with me

 

[Wildswanderer]

actually, I am free to swing my fist, EVEN IF your face is in the way
and then I am free to blame you for putting your face there
civilized society won’t stop that from happening, since it happens all the time in civilized society
I must CHOOSE to NOT do it

They will just put you in jail for assault, but no, they won't stop you.

 

[Bird123]

I read that most people believe in free will.
Although I think it’s not a huge majority.


Why would a person who believes in free will want to prevent others from exercising their own free will?


For a person who doesn’t believe in free will, is it even possible to consider telling other people how to live their lives?

Very Good!! I see this as mankind's greatest problem. Everybody wants to rule the world. How much time and energy is spent on trying to control the actions of others?

I can hear it now. He said this. She said that. He did this, She did that. What are we going to do about that? Let's make up some more rules to control it all.

It's all been wrapped around smoke and mirrors. Control has been taught since childhood.

God places knowledge all around then allows total free choice from there. God will never tell you what to choose. Religion will but God will not.

From an early age we are ruled. We are told what to do. Why? Cause I said so!! Is this teaching us all to control the actions of others??

How many parents give their children the knowledge then say Choose?? I must say I have not heard it. What are we teaching our children? It's certainly not how to choose.

Now some parents might say we could never do that. The kid might make a bad choice. More is learned through bad choices than almost anything else.

There was this religious parent that fought hard to shield their child from the so called evils of the world. I say do not shield your child from the evils of the world. Teach them how to deal with those evil. Do not rule and control. Teach!!

Life is about Learning and Growing. If we work more on Learning and Growing than ruling and controlling, we will discover things will advance toward the better. When one understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choices. How can that ever happen if people are not allowed to choose??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

They will just put you in jail for assault, but no, they won't stop you.

You are free to swing your first unless my face is in the way.
Free Will always has some limits in a civilized society.
Most people don't want to see you naked for example, so you should respect that.

so, it seems that I am free while being not free?

I understand your thinking

 

[Willamena]

Really? What if the other person was freely beating a child? Aren't you inhibiting their freedom by stopping them?
The problem with this thread is no one has defined what they mean by free will.
If it is just autonomy, you could argue that if we live in an unguided universe, no one really has it, as they would do whatever they were caused to do by each and every circumstance that came before them.

I don't see free will as the ability to act, but as independent action. It is that independence, founded in individualism, that denotes freedom, and connotes a self, an individual, at the heart of the action. It stands in stark contrast to arguments that invoke a mechanical, objective, or clockwork flow of events, which present the world from a perspective that automatically excludes the self. To me, free will is all about that self and less about any particular action or choice made by that self, especially as, from the perspective of that self, every action or choice made by that self is freely and independently made. Sure, you could describe the world objectively, and there's no self, and no free will there (in that picture so painted). But the world can also be described (painted) in other ways.