free will?

[RemnanteK]

So then i am assuming u see my point on the free will arguement that is a good start.
I am curious then u can't believe god is all powerful then right?

I Do believe he is all powerful.
But he must have restraint until the Judgment or Satan will be right.
If God killed everything that was against him we would only love him and follow him for fear of retribution.
God does not want us to love him out of fear, but out of love.
When Judgment come only then will God be able to eradicate sin and Satan.
Because then all will be able to see that God has rules for a reason, not because he likes to make rules, but because he knows all and has known forever what is best.
The point of this hell we are in isn't to blame God, but to choose if God is who we want to trust.
I hope I make some sense even if you don't believe, I'm just telling you what I have learned from reading the Bible.
I don't pretend to know everything but I do know I have a personal relationship with Jesus just as you would with a friend.
I can't teach someone that, but I can tell you it's an awesome feeling.
Trust me I'm not here to make you believe me, or 'convert' you, I'm just telling you my story.
I look down on no one who see differently than me.

 

[izbo10]

I am sorry but it is never ever best to let a girl get raped and the rapist go free if you have the power to stop it. he obviously doesn't know best or isn't all powerful. I dont mean to be disrespectful but to say that he knows best when young girls get raped the rapist is free while the girl is scared for life in respect for some low life piece of trash can not be morally right no matter how you slice it. I am scared for u if you try to argue that this can be right in any way or for the best.

Plus lets look at what u are saying he all powerful, yet satan has power that god can not stop if he was really all powerful he could destroy satan, and make us understand what evil was without having to see it. Seems to me he has to be limited in power or not an all good god. That is the only logical answer which church would strongly disagree with god not being all good.

on what basis would we need to fear a god that did the right thing. The only people who would need to fear him are the people like the rapist who are evil to begin with and should fear him if he existed.

 

[RemnanteK]

What do I think happens to those with no side? Is it NOTHING?

I'm not sure I know the logical answer.

Sadly they don't make it to Heaven from what I know as of yet.
Of what I read and know myself to be true the ticket to Heaven is to get to know Jesus and want to be as he was when he was on earth.
People make a great misconception I think when they think to get in to Heaven you just have to be good.
I personal believe you have to get to know Jesus as you would a friend.
You don't have to be good or do good, you just have to talk with him and want to be like him.
I talk with him every say, and find it very comforting to know I always have a friend when I need one.
The whole point of being a Christian is to be "Like Christ (Jesus)" and when I read about him in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John he is always helping and kind.

I hope I don't discourage you in any way, I'm just trying to answer your question the best I know how.

 

[izbo10]

here who jesus is talking to u, it is ur mind telling ur what is right to do, you have amazing abilities as a human being to do great things and you don't need jesus to say it is right to help someone in need, that is u doing something for the sake of kindness. i believe you just need to really give urself more credit for the good that u do. Doing things for the sake of doing the right thing is really a great feeling, i don't see why you need to add i am doing this to get to heaven. That makes a selfless act seem selfish. you are doing the right thing but to be honest with u, u are doing it for the wrong reasons.

 

[RemnanteK]

I am sorry but it is never ever best to let a girl get raped and the rapist go free if you have the power to stop it. he obviously doesn't know best or isn't all powerful. I dont mean to be disrespectful but to say that he knows best when young girls get raped the rapist is free while the girl is scared for life in respect for some low life piece of trash can not be morally right no matter how you slice it. I am scared for u if you try to argue that this can be right in any way or for the best.

Plus lets look at what u are saying he all powerful, yet satan has power that god can not stop if he was really all powerful he could destroy satan, and make us understand what evil was without having to see it. Seems to me he has to be limited in power or not an all good god. That is the only logical answer which church would strongly disagree with god not being all good.

on what basis would we need to fear a god that did the right thing. The only people who would need to fear him are the people like the rapist who are evil to begin with and should fear him if he existed.

No disrespect at all taken.

As for the rapist, I believe he wont get away free in the end. I believe in the end they will suffer for every sin they cling to at judgment.
I know to you that doesn't sound good enough, but to me it does.
Can you imagine standing before God having to account for every single sin and why you did it.
And standing next to you is someone who died to save you from them if you only got to know him.
At the moment God sentences the rapist to suffer for what they have done the rapist will know the pain they have caused and beg for a quick death rather than feel the pain of every soul they have hurt.

God can't make us do what is right, just as Parents can't make their kids do right.
Yes we have all been told don't play in the street, don't talk to strangers.
There are reasons for rules, and God has some to, the rules don't keep you out of Heaven, but not knowing Jesus will.
But also, a person that knows Jesus as a friend is most likely not going to be the kind of person raping others.
So I strongly believe they will get what they deserve in the end.

 

[izbo10]

in ur view maybe they will, but it still doesn't discount the fact that the rapist could be caught before and be just as punished by god while the girl doesn't get punished for nothing. God doesn't even have to be obvious, a cop could just happen to be in the area and stop it from happening the rapist then gets punished in this life and in hell according to u which is a better situation for all involved except the rapist but still they get what they deserve. Really sit back and think about what i am sayng it really all makes sense and i am don't believe i am saying anything that is immoral or something that would make god do something bad. i just can not see any harm coming from god saying this girl doesn't deserve this, lets punish this scum before he does any real harm.

 

[izbo10]

Here is something i would like u to read i posted it in my other post but seems apt to here too with the way the convo is saying. Seriously with an open mind think about what i am saying.

Also lets take this as an example, a child has there mother die of cancer, the father lies and says god took ur mom away the child excepts it. The better option is tell the child ur mom got sick and died of an uncurable cancer. The child may more apt to look for a solution to the problem and try to find a cure so it won't happen again. Really think about it everytime somebody pushes something off as god and people believe it that is less people trying to find a solution to the problem and this troubles me. if anything i am saying is wrong to feel and is not moral let me know but this is truely why i believe any person should be asked to defend there beliefs before spreading them because it not only effects them it effects everyone. If even there is the slightest chance you are wrong do u really want to put peoples lives in danger. Simply search for the truth,don't just take a leap of faith.

 

[RemnanteK]

here who jesus is talking to u, it is ur mind telling ur what is right to do, you have amazing abilities as a human being to do great things and you don't need jesus to say it is right to help someone in need, that is u doing something for the sake of kindness. i believe you just need to really give urself more credit for the good that u do. Doing things for the sake of doing the right thing is really a great feeling, i don't see why you need to add i am doing this to get to heaven. That makes a selfless act seem selfish. you are doing the right thing but to be honest with u, u are doing it for the wrong reasons.

Thnaks

But I don't believe Jesus is just a friend in my mind, I see the things he does for me every day and I don't think it's just luck.
You see I have started to write down the things I pray about, the things I need, want, and I'm thankful for.
I find more and more the things I need and want find a way into my life one way or another.
Now I don't go praying for a million dollars, but I should , I ask for help with this or that, or wisdom, and to be more like Jesus.
God says if we only ask we will get what we ask for.
I've asked for many things over the years, some came quick, some took longer, others have yet to make their way into my life.
I believe I'm better for trusting God knows what is best for me, and I know he wants the best for those that trust him.
My greatest joy would be to know everyone knew my joy that I find in God.
But I also know it's not my job or responsibility to convert people, that isn't free will.
I can only tell people what I know and feel, and hope it helps in some way.

 

[izbo10]

Again i think we have a problem u tell me on one hand god doesnt want to interfere with our free will but he helps you. Lets look at this again as a girl gets raped, most likely she is christian and is praying to god as she gets no response, but you pray to him for minor things and he has time for that, god needs help with priorities and you need to give urself more credit.

 

[RemnanteK]

Here is something i would like u to read i posted it in my other post but seems apt to here too with the way the convo is saying. Seriously with an open mind think about what i am saying.

Also lets take this as an example, a child has there mother die of cancer, the father lies and says god took ur mom away the child excepts it. The better option is tell the child ur mom got sick and died of an uncurable cancer. The child may more apt to look for a solution to the problem and try to find a cure so it won't happen again. Really think about it everytime somebody pushes something off as god and people believe it that is less people trying to find a solution to the problem and this troubles me. if anything i am saying is wrong to feel and is not moral let me know but this is truely why i believe any person should be asked to defend there beliefs before spreading them because it not only effects them it effects everyone. If even there is the slightest chance you are wrong do u really want to put peoples lives in danger. Simply search for the truth,don't just take a leap of faith.

I think telling the truth the the child is the right thing to do, and it's up to the person believe if they say they went to Heaven or not.
I know it's hard to explain death to a child, and I pray I never have to have that talk with my son about his mother.
But to me death isn't the end, so I would explain that to him for sure.
I also don't think telling my son something like that would stop him from trying to find a way to stop it.
It would be his choice if he wants to become a Doctor or not.
As of this day I have no "religion" other than the truth I know, and I will help my son find the same truth if he so wishes.
I wasn't forced into what I now believe, so I will not force my son.
I personally don't find religion as helpful as I found getting to know Jesus.
Faith is something I got after I found Jesus, not before.
I have a few years us testing God before I found faith.

 

[izbo10]

The kid will believe god took the mom away and really will look no further into it when in fact the cure could come to him someday, if it stops one person from taking a further step in finding these answers i believe u better have evidence to back up the claim that is unwavering and religion does not have any evidence other then words in an old book.

 

[RemnanteK]

Again i think we have a problem u tell me on one hand god doesnt want to interfere with our free will but he helps you. Lets look at this again as a girl gets raped, most likely she is christian and is praying to god as she gets no response, but you pray to him for minor things and he has time for that, god needs help with priorities and you need to give urself more credit.

I sadly can't take credit for the things I have received, God has blessed me, but I still wont blame him for evil.
To me being a 'Christian' is more than a 'religion', I a ready to defend my relationship with God with my life.
And like Jesus I would die for someone who didn't believe in the hope they might find him later.
I myself can't save people, but I would hope my actions would have people asking why is he the way he is, and how can I have what he has.

I can't stop sin, it's in my life forever, but I have a friend that helps me up when I fall even when I fail him.
I struggle every day, but I ask for help every day also, and I know that each day it brings me closer to my end happiness.

izbo, life is hard, things happen every day that I just can't bring to think about or I would cry.
There is no Justis in this world, for the most part people just suck and don't want better for themselves or others.
People are more likely to take what they want than ask for it or work for it.
But I do know that "I" have found what works for me, I have found my hero, the one I can always look up to and know he will NEVER fail me.
I pray you too can find such a hero in your life.

 

[izbo10]

So at the end of the day the all powerful creator failed at his creation. The injustice proves that what he created was not perfect and he failed at it.

have a good day and really try to absorb what i have written i think you would really be a lot happier thinking about urself as the one who causes ur happyness, not needing a fictional character to make u do the right thing, but have a good night it has been good discussing with someone who actually tries to make sense.

 

[RemnanteK]

The kid will believe god took the mom away and really will look no further into it when in fact the cure could come to him someday, if it stops one person from taking a further step in finding these answers i believe u better have evidence to back up the claim that is unwavering and religion does not have any evidence other then words in an old book.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know the future.
What I do know is I want great things for everyone, and truth.

I will say this, everything is chance, or nothing is.
But you made a thread looking for something and I hope you find at least a word up truth.
Also, don't be fooled my what people say, find the TRUTH for yourself.
People can tell you there is Gold in a hill, but unless you go dig for it your just a person who knows where some Gold is.
Find some truth my friend, find peace and be happy.
You might not believe in God, but I tell you he Knows you and whats you to know him.
I could quote you this and that from the Bible but I don't believe that would help.
I'm just a guy, talking to someone from what I know to be true, that I found myself.

:thud:Well I must be off to bed, it's 4am and my wife wanted me in bed 3 hrs ago. LoL.
Just think, I wouldn't have staid up if there wasn't a reason. I hope you do find what you are looking for.
Goodnight, and I hope to talk with you more tomorrow. Errr..today.

 

[bobhikes]

Lets start with the very first horrible crime mentioned in the bible. One brother kills another brother out of simple jealousy. Why did god allow his favorite be murdered brutally.

In the garden we were all happy and had free will but no knowledge. By sinning we knew if our actions were good (for god) or bad (against god). We were then banished from the perfect garden to live with our own choice and left with are free will to choose between either knowledge.

The only choice that god would take away is the choice of bad. There is no need to take away the choice of good but in doing so he takes away our free will. We created our own ability to do evil by eating of the tree. God now has to judge us against him because of our choice not his. He is giving us the gift of free will at his own cost as well as ours.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I am an atheist and i have heard the excuse of free will used so many times in debates as to why god allows bad things to happen. But lets look at an example that proves free will is not an exceptable excuse.

lets take the case of a girl getting raped. God should be able to stop it but the religious person will argue free will would be stopped. That is just funny to me. Whose free will would be stopped only the rapists. By god doing nothing the girls free will has been taken away because she definitely does not want to be raped. This has really bothered me for a while and i want to get thoughts on it.

I think this is a really good argument. It is almost as if some Christians argue that God is following the Star Trek "Prime Directive". He must not interfere with the events unfolding on earth. But anyone who's watched more than two episodes of Star Trek knows that the Prime Directive sucks. It is impossible for a good person to stand by and do nothing while preventable pain and suffering are occuring right in front of them.

 

[zenzero]

Friend izbo10,

free will?

You have selected ONE example and so statistically it cannot be prooved.
Besides you speak about the one getting Raped.
There are many ways of looking at it. Could be the victim is enjoying the act but terms it as RAPE? and so alloys the act to take place without much protest as it is difficult to overpower a women, strip her under garments and then get that thing hard enough to penetrate inside; without enough protests to while away the time for that hardness to go away?
It must be rare when the victims hand and legs are tied for the rapist to carry his act.
Besides In most cases of rape the victim should also use that Free -will to cause disturbances for the act to be nullified.
The case is not strong enough, could you bring out some more examples to make out a water-tight case?
Love & rgds

 

[idea]

So at the end of the day the all powerful creator failed at his creation. The injustice proves that what he created was not perfect and he failed at it.

I used to think that, now I am LDS. God did not create it, He is forming it - cleaning up a mess He did not make.

Hebrew Word Studies
"The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. "

all the "creates" should be form.

When all is said and done, it will not have been a failure. It already is not a failure. Countless spirits are currently rejoicing in heaven over the great work that God has done.

 

[idea]

Why not stop this stuff? With my free will I would stop bad things if I had power to. They have free will, so do I.

In the BoM there is a section where two prophets are tied up and forced to watch a bunch of women and children burned to death in a fire by those who hold different beliefs. God is asked to stop the suffering, and they are told that if the event did not happen, the people who did it would not be punished for it. It is not just to punish someone for something they have not done. (The prophets were told that those who suffered were taken up to heaven into glory, that their suffering was only for a moment. ) we see that for some there will be the potential to become Gods. that is power that you do not just give to anyone. For those that are evil, capable of horrible stuff, they need to be shown themself, so that it is just that they do not become Gods. If the evil was not allowed to happen, they would be able to say it was just a passing thought, they would claim they would never do it. To prove that yes, they would do it, they actually had to be allowed to do it. A test.

8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.
9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.
10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the apower of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.
11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.
(Book of Mormon | Alma 14:8 - 11)

 

[whereismynotecard]

Sadly they don't make it to Heaven from what I know as of yet.
Of what I read and know myself to be true the ticket to Heaven is to get to know Jesus and want to be as he was when he was on earth.
People make a great misconception I think when they think to get in to Heaven you just have to be good.
I personal believe you have to get to know Jesus as you would a friend.
You don't have to be good or do good, you just have to talk with him and want to be like him.
I talk with him every say, and find it very comforting to know I always have a friend when I need one.
The whole point of being a Christian is to be "Like Christ (Jesus)" and when I read about him in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John he is always helping and kind.

I hope I don't discourage you in any way, I'm just trying to answer your question the best I know how.

I'm not discouraged. I just wanted to know what you think about that sort of stuff. I don't believe the same thing as you, so I'm not worried about it. I was just curious.