Freedom, Democracy, and the Republic

[Augustus]

The definitions are in both the old & current law dictionaries

Plenty of democracies have constitutions and bills of rights to protect citizens from the tyranny of the majority, America being one of them.

The terms democracy and republic overlap, you are railing against a phantom problem because you don't understand what the word democracy usually means in contemporary usage.

 

[columbus]

There seems to be many simpletons - like 0bama and Trump - who falsely use "democracy" instead of the far more accurate "republic" then.

No it's mostly you.
Most people understand that the USA government is complex and that parts of it are democratic and parts aren't.
Tom

 

[buddhist]

Plenty of democracies have constitutions and bills of rights to protect citizens from the tyranny of the majority, America being one of them.

The terms democracy and republic overlap, you are railing against a phantom problem because you don't understand what the word democracy usually means in contemporary usage.

It's a problem when the lawful usage of the word gets diluted by the so-called "contemporary usage". IMO that's one reason why we have today people demanding the legitimacy of their position because they are in the majority. The election comes to mind. "We're a democracy, the majority voted in Hillary!" instead of "We're a republic, the law voted in Trump."

 

[buddhist]

No it's mostly you.
Most people understand that the USA government is complex and that parts of it are democratic and parts aren't.
Tom

I don't deny that it's complex. I'm stating that the united States is ultimately (or, supposedly) a Republic, a federation ruled by laws - not by the will of the majority.

 

[Augustus]

It's a problem when the lawful usage of the word gets diluted by the so-called "contemporary usage". IMO that's one reason why we have today people demanding the legitimacy of their position because they are in the majority. The election comes to mind. "We're a democracy, the majority voted in Hillary!" instead of "We're a republic, the law voted in Trump."

What do you even mean the 'lawful' usage of the term? You are imagining things that don't exist.

It wasn't 'diluted' by 'contemporary usage', it was never limited to your preferred usage in the first place. Many republics were considered democracies before America even existed.

From the OED:

In early use democracy is usually associated with republicanism, esp. classical republics (such as Athens and Rome), republican states of early modern Europe (such as Switzerland, Venice, and the Dutch Republic), and later the post-revolutionary republics in France and the United States. It is typically used in (explicit or implicit) contrast with terms denoting other systems of government derived from classical Greek and Latin political terminology, as aristocracy, monarchy, and oligarchy, and in these contexts often has negative connotations of disorder or anarchy (see, e.g., quots. a1500 and 1792, and compare the early figurative examples at sense 1c). From the 19th cent., the term increasingly develops positive connotations of egalitarianism, freedom, and the rule of law (see, e.g., quots. 1836, 2011), and in the 20th cent. comes to be used more typically in contrast with systems of government seen as lacking in or inimical to those qualities (such as dictatorship or anarchy), describing both republics and constitutional monarchies.

It's not people calling America a democracy who are wrong, it is you insisting that it cannot be referred to as a democracy that is wrong, both in historical and contemporary usage of the term.

 

[buddhist]

What do you even mean the 'lawful' usage of the term? You are imagining things that don't exist.

It wasn't 'diluted' by 'contemporary usage', it was never limited to your preferred usage in the first place. Many republics were considered democracies before America even existed.

From the OED:

In early use democracy is usually associated with republicanism, esp. classical republics (such as Athens and Rome), republican states of early modern Europe (such as Switzerland, Venice, and the Dutch Republic), and later the post-revolutionary republics in France and the United States. It is typically used in (explicit or implicit) contrast with terms denoting other systems of government derived from classical Greek and Latin political terminology, as aristocracy, monarchy, and oligarchy, and in these contexts often has negative connotations of disorder or anarchy (see, e.g., quots. a1500 and 1792, and compare the early figurative examples at sense 1c). From the 19th cent., the term increasingly develops positive connotations of egalitarianism, freedom, and the rule of law (see, e.g., quots. 1836, 2011), and in the 20th cent. comes to be used more typically in contrast with systems of government seen as lacking in or inimical to those qualities (such as dictatorship or anarchy), describing both republics and constitutional monarchies.

It's not people calling America a democracy who are wrong, it is you insisting that it cannot be referred to as a democracy that is wrong, both in historical and contemporary usage of the term.

"Lawful" meaning "Licit; legally warranted or authorized" - in the context of these united States, not elsewhere, like in the UK (OED). I expect politicians here to use words lawfully, especially Presidents and Presidents-Elect, and to communicate such concepts accurately and precisely to their followers.

 

[Nietzsche]

It's a problem when the lawful usage of the word gets diluted by the so-called "contemporary usage". IMO that's one reason why we have today people demanding the legitimacy of their position because they are in the majority. The election comes to mind. "We're a democracy, the majority voted in Hillary!" instead of "We're a republic, the law voted in Trump."

You've never actually studied language, have you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The several united States are Republics, governments which are (supposedly) ruled by Law. Not Democracies, which is rule by mob (majority).

Why do so many people conflate the two terms (Republic & Democracy)? Or, do they perhaps falsely identify the word "Democracy" with "Freedom"?

Maybe you could start by asking yourself why you got them wrong.

A republic is a democracy with a president rather than a monarch, and there are other forms of democracy besides mob rule direct democracy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The simple definition is "rule by mob."

No, it isn't.

Democracy

1. government by the people; aform of government in which thesupreme power is vested in thepeople and exercised directly bythem or by their elected agentsunder a free electoral system.

the definition of democracy

 

[Augustus]

"Lawful" meaning "Licit; legally warranted or authorized" - in the context of these united States, not elsewhere, like in the UK (OED). I expect politicians here to use words lawfully, especially Presidents and Presidents-Elect, and to communicate such concepts accurately and precisely to their followers.

Have you got a link to the Official US Government Register for the Legally Warranted Use of Language?

They seem to use the word differently in their communications, even having a Bureau of Human Rights, Democracy and Labor: Democracy

Also your founding fathers were speaking English and were mostly British so the history of English language usage is very relevant.

What they were referring to as democracy, in the context of this distinction, was pure, direct democracy. Neither then, nor now, was this the singular interpretation of the word democracy.

You are pedantically arguing that others should abide by your personal preference, and if they do not then it is because they are ignorant.

If people argue that Clinton should win as she won the popular vote, then it is fair to point out that American republican democracy is limited by laws and has never been about simple majorities.

Expecting people to only use the word democracy to mean 'Athenian style direct democracy' and getting annoyed if they don't is pretty silly though.

 

[idav]

I don't deny that it's complex. I'm stating that the united States is ultimately (or, supposedly) a Republic, a federation ruled by laws - not by the will of the majority.

Republic
A republic is a form of government or country in which power resides in elected individuals representing the citizen body and government leaders exercise power according to the rule of law. In modern times, the definition of a republic is commonly limited to a government which excludes a monarch.

 

[buddhist]

Maybe you could start by asking yourself why you got them wrong.

A republic is a democracy with a president rather than a monarch, and there are other forms of democracy besides mob rule direct democracy.

I'll have to disagree.

 

[buddhist]

No, it isn't.


the definition of democracy

I would say that the USA is not a "government by the people". It is government by law.

 

[buddhist]

You are pedantically arguing that others should abide by your personal preference, and if they do not then it is because they are ignorant.

If people argue that Clinton should win as she won the popular vote, then it is fair to point out that American republican democracy is limited by laws and has never been about simple majorities.

Expecting people to only use the word democracy to mean 'Athenian style direct democracy' and getting annoyed if they don't is pretty silly though.

It becomes a serious issue when I hear people around me talking about "direct democracy" because "America's a democracy".

 

[fantome profane]

I would say that the USA is not a "government by the people". It is government by law.

If so, it is only so because that is what the people want.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would say that the USA is not a "government by the people". It is government by law.

It's government by the people by means of laws.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'll have to disagree.

And until such time as you say why you disagree, I'm going to disregard your position.

 

[Augustus]

It becomes a serious issue when I hear people around me talking about "direct democracy" because "America's a democracy".

So?

Just explain that America is a democratic republic, not a direct democracy.

I would say that the USA is not a "government by the people". It is government by law.

Now you are confusing yourself with you desire to prove America is not a democracy.

Laws don't appear out of thin air in a final and unalterable form.

 

[buddhist]

It's government by the people by means of laws.

And until such time as you say why you disagree, I'm going to disregard your position.

I disagree because the people are under cosmic laws that transcend even the will of the people. Even if 100% of the population agrees that "murder is right" and codify it into law, it would still go against cosmic law. That's why the Declaration of Independence states "hold these truths to be self-evident ..."

 

[columbus]

hat's why the Declaration of Independence states "hold these truths to be self-evident ..."

Ha ha....
One of those self evident truths was "all men are created equal". It was written by and for rich white male slavers.
The country has changed a great deal since the 18th century.
Tom