Freedom....What is real freedom ?

[Walkntune]

People shouldn't want to survive?

When people are holding on to the want to survive it means they are living in the fear of death.Let go of the want and the fear of death leaves.Life should be lived and enjoyed in the moment.

 

[Orias]

When people are holding on to the want to survive it means they are living in the fear of death.Let go of the want and the fear of death leaves.Life should be lived and enjoyed in the moment.

No fear of death, but the last line sounded more Satanic than you think.

 

[Octavia156]

It also sounds alot like our philosophy.

Orias,

Have you heard of Aleister Crowley? The self-proclaimed Great Beast 666?
Crowley crystalised the Philosophy of Thelema ('Will' in Greek) in 1904.

He was a great inspiration for Le Vey and Aquino (arguably both these schools are derivatives of Crowley's original system - as is Wicca)

Look him up!

93,93/93

 

[Octavia156]

"Love is the law, love under will." —AL. I. 57​

The mind is capable of more than love, so why not exercise all emotions? Why not will over love, so you can obtain what you will and you are still capable of a passionate love. Where there is only gratification in ones own well being and the close people around them.

The use of the word LOVE here is not to be confused with our emotional conceptions of love.

I quote AC: While Will is the Law, the nature of that Will is Love. But this Love is as it were a by-product of that Will; it does not contradict or supersede that Will; and if apparent contradiction should arise in any crisis, it is the Will that will guide us aright. Lo, while in The Book of the Law is much of Love, there is no word of Sentimentality. Hate itself is almost like Love! “As brothers fight ye!” All the manly races of the world understand this. The Love of Liber Legis is always bold, virile, even orgiastic. There is delicacy, but it is the delicacy of strength. Mighty and terrible and glorious as it is, however, it is but the pennon upon the sacred lance of Will, the damascened inscription upon the swords of the Knight-monks of Thelema.

 

[Kathryn]

1. Man has the right to live by his own law— to live in the way that he wills to do:
to work as he will:
to play as he will:
to rest as he will:
to die when and how he will. 2. Man has the right to eat what he will: to drink what he will:
to dwell where he will:
to move as he will on the face of the earth. 3. Man has the right to think what he will: to speak what he will:
to write what he will:
to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
to dress as he will. 4. Man has the right to love as he will:— "take your fill and will of love as ye will,
when, where, and with whom ye will." —AL. I. 51 5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.

That's all well and good - and I agree with it, with THIS caveat:

Man has those rights. But only so far as his exercize of those rights doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. Man has these inherent rights, but he doesn't have the right to demand that others subsidize his choices at their expense.

 

[Octavia156]

That's all well and good - and I agree with it, with THIS caveat:

Man has those rights. But man does NOT have the right to make others subsidize those rights.

Hi Kathryn

What do you mean by 'subsidize' these rights?

 

[Kathryn]

I mean this - that we should be free to live as we please, as long as our choices to not infringe on the rights of others. When we expect others to pay for our choices, either in tax dollars, or in blood, then we are forcing our choices upon them, and that's infringing on THEIR freedoms.

 

[Octavia156]

I can't speak for Octavia, but when the NGE talks about the concept of man as God, we don't literally mean that man is a supernatural being. When we refer to ourselves as Gods, we mean that there is no higher authority in the universe commanding us to do things. Man is truly free to live however he pleases. I don't know if Thelemics think of this the same way, this is the first I'm hearing of this group.

Hi ISLAM617,

Yes, thats exactly how Thelema sees it

When Thelemites proclaim there is no god but man we are highlighting that man has complete responsibility for the creation of his own Universe.

What is NGE? likewise this is the first time I am hearing of this group..

 

[Orias]

Orias,

Have you heard of Aleister Crowley? The self-proclaimed Great Beast 666?
Crowley crystalised the Philosophy of Thelema ('Will' in Greek) in 1904.

He was a great inspiration for Le Vey and Aquino (arguably both these schools are derivatives of Crowley's original system - as is Wicca)

Look him up!

93,93/93

I have heard of him. There is a song by him...I think Iron Maiden sings it, but I'm not sure. Maybe like Sabbath or somthing. But I kinda figured that since, I looked in the some stuff like that, but I haven't done alot of research. Thanks.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Hi ISLAM617,

Yes, thats exactly how Thelema sees it

When Thelemites proclaim there is no god but man we are highlighting that man has complete responsibility for the creation of his own Universe.

What is NGE? likewise this is the first time I am hearing of this group..

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/atheism-dir/96082-5-percenters.html . This link is for the thread I made explaining what the NGE is and what our philosophy is. I'd be happy to answer any other questions the thread doesn't explain

 

[byenvidnasi]

To answer the original question, freedom is simple and mundane. It means having a choice and options, no matter good or bad those options. If you have the choice to kill yourself with a gun, or by jumping off a bridge you still have freedom.

 

[Sirktas]

That's all well and good - and I agree with it, with THIS caveat:

Man has those rights. But only so far as his exercize of those rights doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. Man has these inherent rights, but he doesn't have the right to demand that others subsidize his choices at their expense.

This sounds more like idealism than reality. Are we not predatory by instinct? If we weren't would we even exist today? Humans feel the need to sometimes exercise their will upon others, that explains human society from the beginning.

 

[Revoltingest]

Does freedom to you means, doing anything you want to do; Does it mean bombing Iraq and install a new government for the people or a master giving his slave freedom and reward for good work ?

The Libertarian definition of freedom:

It is your right to swing your arms.
It ends where your neighbor's nose begins.

 

[Kathryn]

This sounds more like idealism than reality. Are we not predatory by instinct? If we weren't would we even exist today? Humans feel the need to sometimes exercise their will upon others, that explains human society from the beginning.

I don't believe we are simply animals. I believe that as humans, we have a responsibility toward other humans, and the world we live in, to balance our animal instincts with respect for the rights of others.

I don't know about you, but I have ideals that I strive toward in my life.

 

[Kerr]

This sounds more like idealism than reality. Are we not predatory by instinct? If we weren't would we even exist today? Humans feel the need to sometimes exercise their will upon others, that explains human society from the beginning.

Reality is about what is, idealism is about what should be. There is no inherit conflict between the two.

 

[sandandfoam]

Freedom is a state of mind.

On a more mundane level, for me, it's being able to jump on my bike and ride for an hour or head for the hills and walk for an afternnon.

 

[zenzero]

Friend joea,

Freedom....What is real freedom ?

Freedom in real terms mean to be free of all bondages or attachments and that happens when the mind is totally free from all thoughts.

Love & rgds

 

[Peacewise]

Kant said
"Man is free if he needs to obey no person but solely the laws."

seems reasonable to me.

 

[sandandfoam]

Kant said
"Man is free if he needs to obey no person but solely the laws."

seems reasonable to me.

What if the laws are unjust?
Apartheid for example?

 

[Peacewise]

That is a notable exception. When the laws are designed to keep freedom from another, certainly refutes that statement of Kant.