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Freewill and Culture: The Prism for Perception.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
You make some very good points. I still would like to know what Hebrew text the Masoretes used when they first started inserting the markings of pronunciation.

. . . Because of the veracity and care in which they approach the seminal text we can assume it was a string of consonants almost, if not, identical, to what's found in the Hebrew text of the Torah today. Just remove the points, and addendum, the sentence breaks, and such, and you have pretty much what was delivered to Moses.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
No one cornered Popper, and describing ancient religious thought as the Father of modern science is not what Popper stated.

. . . Not word-for-word. No. . . . But it's the spirit of what he said. . . It would take dozens of actual quotes to show the legitimacy of the paraphrasing of his words used to present the overall spirit of his attitude toward modern science.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Popper, of course, like all scientists do acknowledge the evolution of science in the history of humanity, but that does not have any relevance to our discussion.

. . . It seems like it would be better to say that you don't see how my statements (or paraphrasing of Popper) has relevance to our discussion, rather than saying dogmatically that it doesn't, as though I have no opinion or perception concerning what is or isn't relevant to a discussion I am at least a small part of?

In a nut shell, Popper was aware that science evolved from theology. The seeds of modern science come from theology. For instance, the ancients worshiped the sun as the central god such that the centrality of the sun, heliocentrism, was already a part of theology and myth. . . Copernicus leaned on the ancient worship of the sun (as the central god) as one impetus for his examination of the centrality of that divine, life-giving, body.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
You still have not responded to the substance of my previous post concerning Free Will.

We appear to be having some difficulty getting in the same spirit regarding "free will." My first statements about it intended to imply that "free will" isn't absolutely free since it requires a medium to function within.

Say someone tells you you're free to chose between two options but doesn't tell you what the options are. That would kinda straight-jacket the alleged free-ness of your choice.

Say someone tells you you're free to chose between two options and then gives you two options neither of which you want to chose? Then your free-ness seems superfluous.

Freedom, or free will, isn't as free as it sounds, ever, since its free-ness is always circumscribed, or fenced in, by antecedent decisions that make up the environment where so-called free choice can only chose between options not freely chosen by the chooser with the freedom.

It's like someone offering you a free car if you will just pay a minimum fee for it being free.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The only thing that could be considered relatively sound as far as what "envelops us so completely that we breath it, live in it, and yet take it utterly for granted," it is the consistent predictable factual nature of the physical existence that we may describe through science. The many diverse conflicting religious beliefs lack the relative consistency of science.

I think you're perceiving consistency and predictability in a retroactive fashion that creates an illusion of consistency where it doesn't actually exist. For instance, say Marx died in a pandemic before publishing Das Kapital. Say Lenin died of a sexually transmitted disease in his teens, and Stalin got his neck broken by a bully on a trip to a northern city in Siberia that was latter to become a part of his gulag archipelago?

What if Luther is assassinated by the Roman Church on his way to Augsburg; or else he dies from a Diet of Worms?

I would say Ideas matter. For me they're the true source of human history. For me, and from my perspective, no ideas are as seminal to human history as are religious ideas. They, religious ideas, are, I would say, the fundamental archetype of everything that was, is, and will be.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Different cultural interpretations of ancient texts has nothing to with science.

Popper, with most of his peers in the history of science department, say that the written word is the first requirement for science. The written word is literally the first instance of the scientific-method (i.e., the permanent or semi-permanent archiving of knowledge). That being the case, it seems important to note that the first ancient texts were "hieroglyphic." The original written word, text, texts, were considered sacred, holy, holy-glyphs, if you will, and of course if your history is true you won't.

Furthermore, the first writers of text, were priests. They were arbiters of the sacred, the holy. And initially the written word was considered a gift from the gods, mediated (the written word) through its priests.

So if Popper and the other historians of science are correct about the written word being the first prerequisite for science, and specifically modern science, then modern science evolved from sacred writing, hieroglyphs, such that the first scientists, i.e., the first men privileged with the written word, i.e., the priests, were the first scientists. . . Which is merely to point out that Popper isn't doing anything shocking or out of sorts by claiming religious thought is the genesis of modern science since by using modern science as the prism, it's quite easy to see the undeniable nature of claiming religious though is the genesis of modern science.

Perhaps the truth of the matter might even make you see that your own personal worldview is just as religious as any other? I.e., what appears to be your viewpoint that modern science is virgin born, no father, i.e., it (modern science) just miraculously appeared out nowhere, out of sorts with its own scientific belief in evolution, and out of a sort of sealed-womb (since the serpent, or rather what the pen-is in writing, and science, i.e., the genesis, doesn't open up the hymen of your holy modern science).

It seems fair to say that your worldview is, or at least appears, just as religious, and based just as much on your willingness to believe in a virgin birthed savior (modern science), as is mine. It's just that your savior, modern-science, is preferable to you (or I should say it appears that way) than is my Savior, the virgin born Son of Mary. Which segues nicely into the topic of free will since you're just as free to believe modern science is a virgin born savior of mankind as I'm free to believe that it's a chimera, at best, and a demonic distortion of, in all likelihood, the true Savior of mankind.



John
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
. . . It seems like it would be better to say that you don't see how my statements (or paraphrasing of Popper) has relevance to our discussion, rather than saying dogmatically that it doesn't, as though I have no opinion or perception concerning what is or isn't relevant to a discussion I am at least a small part of?

It is not a matter of being dogmatic or not, nor the relevance of Popper's work to our discussion. Your statements and paraphrasing of Popper are unethical and dishonest and do not remotely reflect Popper's views and his Philosophy of Science that resulted in Methodological Naturalism.

Again and again Popper never said the science evolved from ancient religious beliefs.

In a nut shell, Popper was aware that science evolved from theology. The seeds of modern science come from theology. For instance, the ancients worshiped the sun as the central god such that the centrality of the sun, heliocentrism, was already a part of theology and myth. . . Copernicus leaned on the ancient worship of the sun (as the central god) as one impetus for his examination of the centrality of that divine, life-giving, body.

In a nut shell Popper never said science evolved from theology. I am waiting for an accurate citation from Popper stating anything close to this. I will start citing directly, and not dishonestly and unethically paraphrasing him.
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
. . . Because of the veracity and care in which they approach the seminal text we can assume it was a string of consonants almost, if not, identical, to what's found in the Hebrew text of the Torah today. Just remove the points, and addendum, the sentence breaks, and such, and you have pretty much what was delivered to Moses.



John
In other words, nothing really except figuring maybe. (shrug) ok, if I were on a jury and had to vote yes or no, I'd have to abstain. Thanks anyway and maybe you're right maybe who knows right now. I hope we'll find out someday. It's cloudy here, it's nice when the sun is out. Hope it's good in your neck of the woods.
P.S. I know the copyists were fastidious but...still I wonder.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I think you're perceiving consistency and predictability in a retroactive fashion that creates an illusion of consistency where it doesn't actually exist. For instance, say Marx died in a pandemic before publishing Das Kapital. Say Lenin died of a sexually transmitted disease in his teens, and Stalin got his neck broken by a bully on a trip to a northern city in Siberia that was latter to become a part of his gulag archipelago?

No as far as consistency and predictability are part of the foundation of Methodological Naturalism, and the ability of science to falsifiable theories and hypothesis. With science it not retroactive in fashion.

As far as Popper's own words on his views of religion and theology the following may be revealing.

Karl Popper on Religion, Science and Toleration.

Karl Popper on Religion, Science and Toleration
Posted on 10:33 pm, July 14, 2015 by Rafe Champion

“I have insisted that we must be tolerant. But I also believe that this tolerance has its limits. We must not trust those anti-humanitarian religions which not only preach destruction but act accordingly. For if we tolerate them, then we become ourselves responsible for their deeds.”

That comes from a lecture by Popper on science and religion, delivered in 1940 in New Zealand as a contribution to a series of ten university extension lectures on ‘Religion: Some Modern Problems and Developments’. Popper gave four lectures and the others were delivered by religious ministers. Much of the text turned up in The Open Society and its Enemies and some that did not has been reprinted in After the Open Society edited by Jeremy Shearmur of the ANU and Piers Norris Turner at Chapel Hill, North Carolina. A summary of the main ideas in the book can be found here.

One of the themes is Popper’s desire to bring together rather than divide people of good will. This does not mean glossing over differences or holding back from criticism of mistakes but it does mean taking a stand on common ground when it exists. I think that Popper would be surprised and disappointed by the militant atheists. He was a secular humanist, however he argued that the dispute between religion and science in the 19th century was a thing of the past because it was based on each side trespassing on the territory of the other. Science is concerned with the way the world works and it does not presume to answer questions about morality or the purpose of life. Religion is a rival for science when it tries to trespass on the territory of science to describe how the world works. The antagonism is intensified when each side thinks that they have hold of the criteria to decide the issue with certainty.

For Popper, science is not about certainty and it is not about consensus. It is about for ever improving conjectural theories. Still, because science evolved out of the religious mythology that men first invented to explain the world, and because most religions are “true belief” religions, there is a strong and unhelpful tradition of “true belief” science. The result is an awful lot of dogmatism in both science and religion.

Popper’s views on religion

It is necessary to make it quite clear that I am speaking here about religion in a very general way. Although I always have Christianity in mind, I want to speak in sufficiently general terms to include all other religions and especially religions like Buddhism, Islam or Judaism. Everybody agrees that these are religions. I shall…extend the term even further.

He suggested that a person can be considered religious if he or she has some faith that provides a basis for practical living, in the manner of people who appeal to an orthodox religious faith to guide their moral principles, their actions and their proposals for social improvement. He insisted that science has no answers in the search for these principles, though of course science and technology become all-important once we have decided on our aims.

By invoking the idea that we are all motivated by some kind of faith (which he chose to call our religion) he hoped to get over the dispute between the militant atheists (who he regarded as proponents of the religion of atheism) and people of orthodox religious beliefs. He wanted to get past the issue “Have you a religion or not” to address the question “What are the principles of your religion?” – “Is it a good religion or a bad religion?”

He was in favor of “good” religions, including the faiths of secular humanists, which promote the core values of the great religions – honesty, compassion, service, peace and especially the non-coercive unity of mankind. Against these good religions he identified the evil religions of totalitarianism (communism and fascism), and the persecution of heretics. He pointed out that even as science can be misused, so can religions, including Christianity.

This lecture was delivered when the greatest evil in the world was the National Socialism of Germany. Militant Islam was not in the picture, but his thoughts on the limits of tolerance should exercise our minds as we contemplate the world today (see the extract at the start of the post). How do we take a stand and where do we draw a line against the intolerance of the various bad religions such as militant Islam and the degenerate form of left liberalism that has become prominent among the Western elites and political classes?

A good summary of Karl Popper's life and scientific philosophy:

Karl Popper - Bibliography - PhilPapers

Sir Karl Popper (1902-1994) was an Austrian-born philosopher who for the most significant period of his career held a position at the London School of Economics. Popper was a philosopher of science, who also made contributions in epistemology, philosophy of mind and social and political philosophy. He argued that scientific theories are distinguished from non-scientific theories and pseudo-science by being falsifiable claims about the world. Popper proposed a "solution" to the problem of induction by arguing that there is no need for induction in the scientific method. The method of science is to propose conjectural theories which are then submitted to rigorous tests in the attempt to falsify them. Theories which fail these tests are to be rejected. Theories which survive attempts to refute them may be accepted tentatively, but are not proven to be true. At best, they may be highly corroborated. This "falsificationist" philosophy of science has a more general application beyond the method of the sciences. The attempt to falsify a theory is an attempt to criticize the theory. For Popper, criticism lies at the heart of rational thought, which he took to consist in the method of critical discussion and reflection. The resulting general position is known as "critical rationalism". Popper extended these ideas as well into the social and political realm. He introduced the distinction between open and closed societies. Open societies welcome and foster critical discussion and change whereas closed societies, which are usually tribal societies, are based on unchanging social custom and ritual.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
. . . Not word-for-word. No. . . . But it's the spirit of what he said. . . It would take dozens of actual quotes to show the legitimacy of the paraphrasing of his words used to present the overall spirit of his attitude toward modern science.

The problem is the paraphrasing does not reflect Popper's view of religion, theology nor the historical foundation of science. He did not say science originated in Theology.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Popper, with most of his peers in the history of science department, say that the written word is the first requirement for science. The written word is literally the first instance of the scientific-method (i.e., the permanent or semi-permanent archiving of knowledge). That being the case, it seems important to note that the first ancient texts were "hieroglyphic." The original written word, text, texts, were considered sacred, holy, holy-glyphs, if you will, and of course if your history is true you won't.

Actually the first written words in Sumerian, Egyptian, and Babylonian texts were records of trade in the form of trade tokens, inventory of goods, records of government and laws, not religious texts. Stories and myths like Gilgamesh followed.

Still waiting for actual quotes by Popper concerning your assertions.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Popper, with most of his peers in the history of science department, say that the written word is the first requirement for science. The written word is literally the first instance of the scientific-method (i.e., the permanent or semi-permanent archiving of knowledge). That being the case, it seems important to note that the first ancient texts were "hieroglyphic." The original written word, text, texts, were considered sacred, holy, holy-glyphs, if you will, and of course if your history is true you won't.

Furthermore, the first writers of text, were priests. They were arbiters of the sacred, the holy. And initially the written word was considered a gift from the gods, mediated (the written word) through its priests.

So if Popper and the other historians of science are correct about the written word being the first prerequisite for science, and specifically modern science, then modern science evolved from sacred writing, hieroglyphs, such that the first scientists, i.e., the first men privileged with the written word, i.e., the priests, were the first scientists. . . Which is merely to point out that Popper isn't doing anything shocking or out of sorts by claiming religious thought is the genesis of modern science since by using modern science as the prism, it's quite easy to see the undeniable nature of claiming religious though is the genesis of modern science.

Perhaps the truth of the matter might even make you see that your own personal worldview is just as religious as any other? I.e., what appears to be your viewpoint that modern science is virgin born, no father, i.e., it (modern science) just miraculously appeared out nowhere, out of sorts with its own scientific belief in evolution, and out of a sort of sealed-womb (since the serpent, or rather what the pen-is in writing, and science, i.e., the genesis, doesn't open up the hymen of your holy modern science).

It seems fair to say that your worldview is, or at least appears, just as religious, and based just as much on your willingness to believe in a virgin birthed savior (modern science), as is mine. It's just that your savior, modern-science, is preferable to you (or I should say it appears that way) than is my Savior, the virgin born Son of Mary. Which segues nicely into the topic of free will since you're just as free to believe modern science is a virgin born savior of mankind as I'm free to believe that it's a chimera, at best, and a demonic distortion of, in all likelihood, the true Savior of mankind.



John
Now I am going to look up about hieroglyphics, you got me curious about that.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I think you're perceiving consistency and predictability in a retroactive fashion that creates an illusion of consistency where it doesn't actually exist. For instance, say Marx died in a pandemic before publishing Das Kapital. Say Lenin died of a sexually transmitted disease in his teens, and Stalin got his neck broken by a bully on a trip to a northern city in Siberia that was latter to become a part of his gulag archipelago?

What if Luther is assassinated by the Roman Church on his way to Augsburg; or else he dies from a Diet of Worms?

I would say Ideas matter. For me they're the true source of human history. For me, and from my perspective, no ideas are as seminal to human history as are religious ideas. They, religious ideas, are, I would say, the fundamental archetype of everything that was, is, and will be.



John
I'm thinking that religion has often impeded true science.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I'm thinking that religion has often impeded true science.

Popper simply separated most philosophy and theology as outside the consideration of Methodological Naturalism, because of their subjective nature and lack of objective verifiable evidence to falsify theories and hypothesis in particular Theological claims.
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Now I am going to look up about hieroglyphics, you got me curious about that.

Demotic writing developed around 600 BC. It was derived from Hieratic writing, but developed into a highly cursive form so that the pictographic element of some symbols was lost. Although many single symbols were still used to write whole words or concepts, the symbol did not necessarily visually resemble the concept it represented. As Demotic writing gained popularity, it began to replace Hieratic writing in the administrative context, though Hieratic continued to be used in religious texts. Demotic writing was used until roughly 400 AD, when all three scripts began to fall from use in favour of the Coptic alphabet.

The Relationship between Hieroglphic, Hieratic, and Demotic (Emphasis mine).

Its well-known that the first form of writing used hiero-glyphs, sacred glyphs. And it's equally well-known, or should be, that the first writers were priests. Only priest were initially allowed to write. It was only later, with the evolution of demotic writing, that the sacredness of the written word gave way to using it for archiving within administrative contexts (non-sacred uses).

Most historians of modern science concede that the written word was a seminal part of the rise of science (as we know it) since it allowed ideas to be archived, studied, and tested. In this sense, there would seem to be no serious denial that the source of modern science began with priests, sacred-writing, and religion. Without the latter, modern science would have been still born from the get-go.



John
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Demotic writing developed around 600 BC. It was derived from Hieratic writing, but developed into a highly cursive form so that the pictographic element of some symbols was lost. Although many single symbols were still used to write whole words or concepts, the symbol did not necessarily visually resemble the concept it represented. As Demotic writing gained popularity, it began to replace Hieratic writing in the administrative context, though Hieratic continued to be used in religious texts. Demotic writing was used until roughly 400 AD, when all three scripts began to fall from use in favour of the Coptic alphabet.

The Relationship between Hieroglphic, Hieratic, and Demotic (Emphasis mine).

Its well-known that the first form of writing used hiero-glyphs, sacred glyphs. And it's equally well-known, or should be, that the first writers were priests. Only priest were initially allowed to write. It was only later, with the evolution of demotic writing, that the sacredness of the written word gave way to using it for archiving within administrative contexts (non-sacred uses).

Most historians of modern science concede that the written word was a seminal part of the rise of science (as we know it) since it allowed ideas to be archived, studied, and tested. In this sense, there would seem to be no serious denial that the source of modern science began with priests, sacred-writing, and religion. Without the latter, modern science would have been still born from the get-go.



John

Actually the first written words in Sumerian, Egyptian, and Babylonian texts were records of trade in the form of trade tokens, inventory of goods, records of government and laws, not religious texts. Stories and myths like Gilgamesh followed. The first scribes of cuneiform texts were trading tokens on pottery and labels on pottery indicating the contents and simply Sumerian government scribes keeping records

Still waiting for actual quotes by Popper concerning your assertions.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Actually the first written words in Sumerian, Egyptian, and Babylonian texts were records of trade in the form of trade tokens, inventory of goods, records of government and laws, not religious texts. Stories and myths like Gilgamesh followed. The first scribes of cuneiform texts were trading tokens on pottery and labels on pottery indicating the contents and simply Sumerian government scribes keeping records

Your statement rests, no pun intended, on semantics, since if you define "the first written words" to speak of a late-cuneiform or demotic script, then yes, "the first written words" were used for trade and mundane forms of communication. Nevertheless, even the cuneiform considered one of the earliest scripts was pictographic. It was written using images, or pictures.

The history books sometimes claim that the earliest form of cuneiform was used for trade and record keeping. But this biased history, like your own, is based on defining the earliest form of cuneiform as the form of cuneiform used for trade and record keeping, therein choosing not to consider the even earlier mythological pictograms employed by the priests as qualifying, yet, as a "script," or defining it, yet, as a written language, even though it can be argued persuasively that what the historians choose to consider the first script, and written language (used for trade and record-keeping), are in fact preceded by, evolve from, priestly hieroglyphics.

To set the record straight, we can know, from Egypt, and the proto-Canaanite or paleo-Hebrew scripts, that prior to the evolution of the demotic form of the script, used for trade and record-keeping, there was always a pictographic form of communication used to record sacred, mythological, ideas, seminal to the cosmology, and tribal origin myths, of the peoples and nations doing the trading, and keeping the records straight.

Even more seminal to the discussion here, is the fact that many historians, serving biases seemingly similar to your own, are wont to want to ignore the seminality of myth and religion, though they're original to everything important to human history, human evolution, and to modern scientific development, even though doing so requires a cunning form of examination that denies the actual facts concerning something as transparent as a true understanding of the evolution of cuneiform.

Agnostics amaze themselves at how easily they can deny the seminality of myth and religious thought, i.e., eliminate it from their thinking and their historical accounts of the evolution of the modern world, merely by the cunning form of selective history that speaks of the first cuneiform writing as being agnostic (so far as myth and religion are concerned) merely by cunningly defining the first writing as that form of script already developed to the standards the agnostic would like to consider the origin or original form of writing (used for trade and record-keeping).

Though everything important to modern Western Civilization derives from myth and religious thought, the modern agnostic, living in Western Civilization, chooses to believe his agnostic worldview and ideology contains a seminality that derives from something more than his innate desire to destroy the true origins of the cosmos and the world in order to make a false, agnostic, cosmology, come, so to say, from a falsehood, the victorious origin story of the world-to-come.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
. . . Not word-for-word. No. . . . But it's the spirit of what he said. . . It would take dozens of actual quotes to show the legitimacy of the paraphrasing of his words used to present the overall spirit of his attitude toward modern science.
The problem is the paraphrasing does not reflect Popper's view of religion, theology nor the historical foundation of science. He did not say science originated in Theology.

There are two issues at stake in speaking of "Popper's view of religion." The first is his personal religion, or lack thereof, or his personal attitude toward a religious tradition, or religious traditions in general. The second is his philosophical, or historical, opinion about whether, and where, myth and religion exist in the development of human thought in general, or the evolution of scientific thought specifically.

I've only commented on the latter. Popper was himself, personally, agnostic or atheistic. Which has nothing to do with his saying that myth and religion are the fertile soil from whence modern scientific thinking gestated and sprouted forth.



John
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Your statement rests, no pun intended, on semantics, since if you define "the first written words" to speak of a late-cuneiform or demotic script, then yes, "the first written words" were used for trade and mundane forms of communication. Nevertheless, even the cuneiform considered one of the earliest scripts was pictographic. It was written using images, or pictures.

So?

The history books sometimes claim that the earliest form of cuneiform was used for trade and record keeping. But this biased history, like your own, is based on defining the earliest form of cuneiform as the form of cuneiform used for trade and record keeping, therein choosing not to consider the even earlier mythological pictograms employed by the priests as qualifying, yet, as a "script," or defining it, yet, as a written language, even though it can be argued persuasively that what the historians choose to consider the first script, and written language (used for trade and record-keeping), are in fact preceded by, evolve from, priestly hieroglyphics.

To set the record straight, we can know, from Egypt, and the proto-Canaanite or paleo-Hebrew scripts, that prior to the evolution of the demotic form of the script, used for trade and record-keeping, there was always a pictographic form of communication used to record sacred, mythological, ideas, seminal to the cosmology, and tribal origin myths, of the peoples and nations doing the trading, and keeping the records straight.

To set the record straight; Actual texts of the earliest cuneiform are indeed simply trade, tax and record keeping. There is no evidence nor 'as a fact' of an earlier To set the record straight priestly hieroglyphics. The closest possible earlier text being priestly in a culture is the earliest Chinese symbols were on pieces of turtle shell used in fortune telling, but parallel to this there were symbols on pottery jars labeling their contents, ie wine.

Let's get back to the subject. Popper never, and I mean never wrote anything indicating that science evolved from theology. In fact he was likely an agnostic, and his proposals of Methodological Naturalism separated theology and most philosophy as out of the realm of science, because their propositions and beliefs are not falsifiable in theories and hypothesis, because of the lack of objective verifiable evidence.

Karl Popper as a Point of Departure for a Philosophy of Theology David E. Schrader December 1983.
International Journal for Philosophy
 
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