French Burka Ban

[beenie]

I agree with your position, as well, Gnostic Storyteller.

In my view, is some lady wishes to trot about covered from head to toe, that is her right. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want to do so, but I also cannot understand why all too many overweight women (and girls) try to dress like Jennifer Lopez either or why many boys and young men like to wander about with their pants about to fall off. So, there you go.

That said, I think that Muslim women should not receive special consideration of having only female personal confirm their identity. Logistically, that is not always possible. If a female official is available, by all means, if not, no dice. It should be mandatory for the female Muslim to submit to the people who are present and be done with it.

i could not have said this better myself.
my personal/religious decisions shouldn't affect the flow of life in general, nor should i expect special arrangements or treatment because of MY choice.

...and of course, if it is her choice to wear the burqa, then she should be able to, as stated above.

 

[ninerbuff]

If a man wears a scarf around his mouth and hat over his head with only his eyes exposed, should this be illegal? Or if a person wearing a full face motorcycle helmet walks into a convenience store without taking it off be illegal too?

 

[beenie]

If a man wears a scarf around his mouth and hat over his head with only his eyes exposed, should this be illegal? Or if a person wearing a full face motorcycle helmet walks into a convenience store without taking it off be illegal too?

nope, he should only be asked to remove it for security purposes.

 

[HonestJoe]

If a man wears a scarf around his mouth and hat over his head with only his eyes exposed, should this be illegal? Or if a person wearing a full face motorcycle helmet walks into a convenience store without taking it off be illegal too?

In France both examples now are illegal. Their new law refers to face covering in general (baring specific exceptions like helmets when actually riding a motorbike). I suspect that specifically referring to Muslim clothing would be unconstitutional.

Of course, how they actually implement the law (if at all) is a different matter. There could be some embarrassing test-cases in the near future.

 

[beenie]

In France both examples now are illegal. Their new law refers to face covering in general (baring specific exceptions like helmets when actually riding a motorbike). I suspect that specifically referring to Muslim clothing would be unconstitutional.

Of course, how they actually implement the law (if at all) is a different matter. There could be some embarrassing test-cases in the near future.

do they make exceptions for people with allergies (those who wear face masks)? i suppose when it's cold, people can wear a hat and a scarf around their face to keep warm, right? this could get very confusing indeed.

 

[gnostic]

It is the face-covering the issue. Wearing mask (of any sort), veil or helmet should be made illegal in banks, airports and law courts. There should be no exception in any security-sensitive areas.

Also, when I was back at the university, during our exams, we have to show our Student ID cards. This is to ensure that no one cheats. The people monitoring the exams had to check student didn't sent another person to do their exams for them. I don't think people should be wearing such face-covering during exams. But at that time, there were no Muslim women attending those exams at that time, so it was not issue.

It is only the last 8 years that I have seen women wearing the burqa. Before then, it was rare to come across such women.

 

[Kathryn]

Isn't that racist by targeting their dress code though

How it is racist in a bank to require that we verify photo IDs? How is it racist that we insist people be recognizable, and that they remove hats or sunglasses, or veils or anything covering their face so that if by some chance they ARE trying to rob the bank or commit some sort of fraud, we would be able to give a detailed description of their face, hair, etc to the police?

I don't want some woman coming into the bank wearing a burka and refusing to take it off, and yet insisting that she's me and she's here to make a withdrawal from my checking account!

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

We as humans are born naked and wear clothes as we as humans have formed a society and a code of conduct for our selves and in it we have a dress code. Yes part of the human society may be following another dress code but then it is simply a question of convenience of the society of the place one is in whose code of conduct everyone there has to follow so where is the problem to remove burkha from one's dress code?? It is been made to appear as if women does not wear anything but a burkha and if some may perceive it in that fashion what can be done??
So personally would rather utilise the time and energy to adjust with the code rather than debating its need and waste personal time and energy which can be utilised more productively.
Love & rgds

 

[Vendetta]

I don't see how you guys keep using the words "racist" so far in this thread if such was the case did this law target a specific ethnic group or is it simply labeled racist cause its targeting a religious group. If its the latter, that is entirely different from racism. It may be discriminatory but not racist. I agree with Kathryn a woman who refuses to uncover her face especially in a bank is suspect because, as kathryn states, this person could identify herself as someone else to recover assests. When it comes to airports, banks or any place where private information can be compromised, any burka covering the face should come off.

 

[darkendless]

How it is racist in a bank to require that we verify photo IDs? How is it racist that we insist people be recognizable, and that they remove hats or sunglasses, or veils or anything covering their face so that if by some chance they ARE trying to rob the bank or commit some sort of fraud, we would be able to give a detailed description of their face, hair, etc to the police?

I don't want some woman coming into the bank wearing a burka and refusing to take it off, and yet insisting that she's me and she's here to make a withdrawal from my checking account!

I agree with you, sorry it was meant to be sarcasm mocking people who roll out the race card at first opportunity.

What you have described the implications of the particular choice of clothing and in Western countries these women must adapt to the security measures banks such as yours employ. However, what about security for shops in general, like evn normal retail stores?
What if a man/woman was to put on a burqa and take clothes to a changing room and put on 3 paira of jeans and then walk out without paying, using a burka to conceal them?
Would it be considered discriminatory if a shop owner requested a patron wearing a burka to remove their facial covering for security purposes?

Where is the line drawn here between an acceptable security request and discrimination?

 

[Kathryn]

yeah - a woman in a burka could waddle out of a convenience store with a 12 pack of beer between her knees!

 

[blackout]

In France both examples now are illegal. Their new law refers to face covering in general (baring specific exceptions like helmets when actually riding a motorbike). I suspect that specifically referring to Muslim clothing would be unconstitutional.

Of course, how they actually implement the law (if at all) is a different matter. There could be some embarrassing test-cases in the near future.

Ahhh.... Is that so?


This detail nullifies a great deal of what I have said in these threads.

ALL face coverings have been banned.

Does anyone have a link to the ACTUAL content of the new law,
including the specifics of what constitutes a face covering,
and what the exceptions are?

Can you wear a ski mask on the street when it's 0 degrees and windy?
Or must you actually be skiing, to wear a ski mask?

Or, what of a woman in large sunglasses and a neck scarf
and a fashionable brimmed hat complete with veil?

Certainly sounds very French to me.

 

[beenie]

UV I wondered the same thing. I have yet to receive an answer.

do they make exceptions for people with allergies (those who wear face masks)? i suppose when it's cold, people can wear a hat and a scarf around their face to keep warm, right? this could get very confusing indeed.

Ahhh.... Is that so?


This detail nullifies a great deal of what I have said in these threads.

ALL face coverings have been banned.

Does anyone have a link to the ACTUAL content of the new law,
including the specifics of what constitutes a face covering,
and what the exceptions are?

Can you wear a ski mask on the street when it's 0 degrees and windy?
Or must you actually be skiing, to wear a ski mask?

Or, what of a woman in large sunglasses and a neck scarf
and a fashionable brimmed hat complete with veil?

Certainly sounds very French to me.

 

[darkendless]

I don't see how you guys keep using the words "racist" so far in this thread if such was the case did this law target a specific ethnic group or is it simply labeled racist cause its targeting a religious group. If its the latter, that is entirely different from racism. It may be discriminatory but not racist. I agree with Kathryn a woman who refuses to uncover her face especially in a bank is suspect because, as kathryn states, this person could identify herself as someone else to recover assests. When it comes to airports, banks or any place where private information can be compromised, any burka covering the face should come off.

Racism is a term usually used by other to label those who aren't sickened by the west and its ways

I'll direct my question at you also: what about retail stores who cannot identify theives who put on a burka? Should shop owners have the right to ask women wearing burkas to identify themselves to security cameras?

 

[HonestJoe]

This detail nullifies a great deal of what I have said in these threads.

I'm not convinced it changes the principal. They couldn't legally introduce a ban specifying Muslim clothing but that is the stated aim of the law anyway (which, IMO, could still make the legality questionable). That's why how they actually implement it is significant, especially since I wouldn't be surprised if some objectors to the law deliberately present the French police with the difficult situations (e.g. a Muslim woman in shades and a scarf with a Christian man in a burka).

Does anyone have a link to the ACTUAL content of the new law

I don't. I would normally look something like this up but I doubt I'd be able to find the details in anything other than French (which might as well be Klingon for me ). I've just got (relatively) reliable UK news reports describing the law and the fact that it makes sense as the only way they could frame it.

 

[waitasec]

the burqa is obviously disruptive because it goes against the natural order of things...
plain and simple.
oh some call it modest humility, really...? try oppression, what certain religions get away with makes me want to vomit.

 

[Kathryn]

I wouldn't choose to dress like this:

But I also wouldn't want to dress like this:

Or this:

or this:

No, wait - that last one is pretty cool.

Anyway, my point is this - I am only opposed to women having the right to wear a burka if they want, except for in cases where it is a security threat.

Freedom, people, freedom. Within the context of freedom, some people voluntarily choose to be personally restricted. It's their right to choose.

 

[kai]

This may be of interest;

France’s burka ban is a victory for tolerance;

France’s burka ban is a victory for tolerance - Telegraph