French newspaper Petrol-bombed for depiciting the Prophet Mohamed

[Gharib]

Lots of folks get offended and provoked but they don't fall back on violence to fix the problem as they see it.

It is more offensive that people are killed and property is damaged when Muslims feel offended.

so why are muslims offended then? have muslims made fun of Moses alayhi salam to set of Jewish followers? or have they done such a thing to any other such religious figures of other faiths?

 

[Gharib]

So saying something that offends you is reason to resort to violence?

if muslims minding their own business is reason enough to resort to offending muslims then why can't what you said be right also?

 

[Gharib]

You believe they deserved to be firebombed?

the question you should be asking is did muslims deserve to be insulted?

 

[9Westy9]

the question you should be asking is did muslims deserve to be insulted?

Jokes aren't meant to be taken as a serious insult

 

[9Westy9]

so why are muslims offended then? have muslims made fun of Moses alayhi salam to set of Jewish followers? or have they done such a thing to any other such religious figures of other faiths?

Doesn't matter. Comedians make fun of all of them. Yet only (some) Muslims kick up such a fuss. Why is that?

 

[Gharib]

Jokes aren't meant to be taken as a serious insult

who's to say that it was a joke?

 

[9Westy9]

who's to say that it was a joke?

The French Prime Minister, Francois Fillon, has condemned a petrol-bomb attack on the offices of the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, which named the Prophet Muhammed as a "guest editor".

Who would claim that the Prophet Muhammed was seriously a guest editor? Of course it's a joke.

 

[Gharib]

Who would claim that the Prophet Muhammed was seriously a guest editor? Of course it's a joke.

tha author has said this:
He said: "If we can poke fun at everything in France, if we can talk about anything in France apart from Islam or the consequences of Islamism, that is annoying."

It was described as a special edition on the Arab Spring, intended to "celebrate" the victory of an Islamist party in last month's Tunisian elections.

that clears up their intentions, i.e. to being against a muslim party winning the election therefore they deserve to be insulted.

 

[9Westy9]

tha author has said this:
He said: "If we can poke fun at everything in France, if we can talk about anything in France apart from Islam or the consequences of Islamism, that is annoying."

It was described as a special edition on the Arab Spring, intended to "celebrate" the victory of an Islamist party in last month's Tunisian elections.

that clears up their intentions, i.e. to being against a muslim party winning the election therefore they deserve to be insulted.

Note the first line you quoted "If we can poke fun at everything in France, if we can talk about anything in France apart from Islam or the consequences of Islamism, that is annoying."

It's a magazine that pokes fun at everything, not just Islam. It does it because it's a satirical magazine. Also newspapers are usually for or against a certain party anyway. Should all newspapers be insulted? I think not.

*EDIT* Also burning down an office is a big leap from "They deserve to be insulted"

 

[jarofthoughts]

i agree, but if i was to insult you now and ask for an apology then we can both let that go an move on, but if i keep insulting you again and again then how would that make you feel? if words don't get through then you get what you ask for. who's to say that words cannot be just as bad as actions? there have been numerous cases of suicides by people who were bullied on facebook and no actual physical harm was done to them it took only words that lead to them comiting suicide.

The thing some people seem to miss is that when someone insults an idea they are not insulting a person or persons.
Saying that this or that idea is stupid is not the same as saying that this or that person is stupid.
attacking ideas is not the same as personal bullying or harassment.

We need to separate ourselves from the ideas we subscribe to and realize that they are not one and the same.
People should be respected.
Ideas should not, and should in fact be attacked at every turn to expose weaknesses.

And whether people like it or not, a religion is just that; an idea amongst many.

 

[Gharib]

Note the first line you quoted "If we can poke fun at everything in France, if we can talk about anything in France apart from Islam or the consequences of Islamism, that is annoying."

It's a magazine that pokes fun at everything, not just Islam. It does it because it's a satirical magazine. Also newspapers are usually for or against a certain party anyway. Should all newspapers be insulted? I think not.

*EDIT* Also burning down an office is a big leap from "They deserve to be insulted"

why is it that muslims are continually offended when pretty much everyone knows how some from among us will react? and why are muslims blamed for the burning of the newspaper office, when no one has already been charged?

 

[Gharib]

The thing some people seem to miss is that when someone insults an idea they are not insulting a person or persons.
Saying that this or that idea is stupid is not the same as saying that this or that person is stupid.
attacking ideas is not the same as personal bullying or harassment.

We need to separate ourselves from the ideas we subscribe to and realize that they are not one and the same.
People should be respected.
Ideas should not, and should in fact be attacked at every turn to expose weaknesses.

And whether people like it or not, a religion is just that; an idea amongst many.

i agree with all that you have said, appart from your last statement. and it wasn't an idea that was criticized or mocked, it was a person, a being, the prophet of the muslims. he is not an idea, he is a person and it is/was a personal attack on the person.

 

[9Westy9]

why is it that muslims are continually offended when pretty much everyone knows how some from among us will react? and why are muslims blamed for the burning of the newspaper office, when no one has already been charged?

Because people know they're going to get an irrational response. I personally think it's a good thing as, eventually, we might get it into their thick skulls that burning down a building for a joke is stupid.

As for why Muslims are being blamed that should be obvious based on how some Muslims have reacted in the past to similar events.

 

[Majikthise]

The intentions of Islamic religion in middle eastern culture are black and white.
You can sugar coat it all you want, turn arguements upside down and backwards and lay blame everywhere but at it's true source.
This will all remain as it always has been until the chain of these outdated modes of thought ,still taught from generation to generation, is broken.

 

[jarofthoughts]

i agree with all that you have said, appart from your last statement. and it wasn't an idea that was criticized or mocked, it was a person, a being, the prophet of the muslims. he is not an idea, he is a person and it is/was a personal attack on the person.

A few things to make note of:
1. This is not a living person we're talking about, and it cannot reasonably be said that he has any feelings that might be hurt.
2. Even if he was considered to be alive, he would be what we call a 'public persona', meaning that he would have to expect a certain amount of attention, not all of it positive. This is no different than when newspapers publish cartoons and caricatures of politicians and celebrities.
3. Him being a prophet, while factual, is an idea on the level that it is an idea that you can even have prophets in the first place.

Thus, according to 1. while it might be in bad taste, no-one's feelings is directly being hurt.
According to 2. public persona just has to suck it up at times. This might seem unfair, especially if the person in question did not seek the status of celebrity, but I don't see this changing any time soon.
And finally, 3. the reason he is famous in the first place, and the reason anyone at all is getting upset, is because of an idea, a religion, thus bringing us full circle back to my original argument.

At this point I would also like to make a personal note regarding these caricatures.
When they were first published my initial though was "that was a bit unnecessary". While I would never question anyone's right to free speech, I didn't, at the time, see any reason for what seemed like blatant insults.
This, however, changed when I saw the reactions of certain groups of Muslims around the world, their response being one of violence and destruction of property. At that point I thought "we need this, because we need these people to grow a thicker skin, and to learn to respect the freedom of speech".
So, in fact, the responses given from certain groups of Muslims actually changed my stance from one of moderate distaste for the caricatures to a rather extreme disgust for the Muslims in question.

 

[Caladan]

i agree with all that you have said, appart from your last statement. and it wasn't an idea that was criticized or mocked, it was a person, a being, the prophet of the muslims. he is not an idea, he is a person and it is/was a personal attack on the person.

The Magazine has made satirical caricatures of personage on regular basis. Marine Le Pen, Jacque Chirac, Nicolas Sarkozy, Dominique Strauss-Kahn have all been included, with caricatures much much more offensive than that of Muhammad, who many consider to be an almost mythical figure. these people are actually alive and active on the political arena, where is all the aggression when they are being depicted?
from your post we can almost conclude two things. issues which relate to Islam should be off limits to criticism, and people should consider what they criticise less they will be physically hurt.

 

[Caladan]

so why are muslims offended then? have muslims made fun of Moses alayhi salam to set of Jewish followers? or have they done such a thing to any other such religious figures of other faiths?

Muslims have been producing highly offensive caricatures and material about Jews as a whole on regular basis. no Arab embassies have been burned, no caricaturists have been hurt.

 

[Panda]

if muslims minding their own business is reason enough to resort to offending muslims then why can't what you said be right also?

Sorry but do you even know what satire is? I get the impression that you are clueless on it.

 

[Tamar]

i agree, but if i was to insult you now and ask for an apology then we can both let that go an move on, but if i keep insulting you again and again then how would that make you feel? if words don't get through then you get what you ask for. who's to say that words cannot be just as bad as actions? there have been numerous cases of suicides by people who were bullied on facebook and no actual physical harm was done to them it took only words that lead to them comiting suicide.

Muslims are not being bullied... And these Muslims did not commit suicide they firebombed a building.

There is no justification for what they did...

And those Muslims who have committed suicide because they feel insulted have done so and killed many innocents right along side of them.

I am sorry there is no excuse for this type of behavior. I don't care how Islam or the prophet is depicted you don't damage property or kill innocent people.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The more serious problem is that too few of the rest of us take offense.

No. That's not more serious than the problem that someone firebombed a building because of satire.