From the Atheists view; can life have meaning ?

[Altfish]

" If God does not exist, life can be considered absurd. If there is no God, man is inevitably doomed to death. like all biological organisms, he must die, and with no hope of immortality, his life leads no further than the grave."

" It might be said that his life held importance because it influenced others or affected the course of history. But this gives only a relative significance to his life, not an ultimate significance. His life may be important relative to other people or certain events, but those people and events are insignificant, since they too are headed foe non existence. All of history and it's events and persons are meaningless, so what ultimate significance is there in influencing any of them ? :"

The universe will die, as will all humanity and no matter how long they exist, they can inhabit only a tiny flash of time in eternity.

The problem of man; because he and everything end in nothing, he and everything are nothing, and can have no value, no importance, no ultimate significance. Man and everything are absurdities Quotations from, The Existence of God and the Beginning of the Universe. By William L. Craig, PhD., D. Theo.

THOUGHTS ?

Good grief yes.
Life is brilliant, I don't want it to end... but it will and I'm well over half way through mine.
I have kids and grand kids, friends and relatives how lucky have I been.

No, god is not required for a fulfilling time on this earth

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

" If God does not exist, life can be considered absurd. If there is no God, man is inevitably doomed to death. like all biological organisms, he must die, and with no hope of immortality, his life leads no further than the grave."

" It might be said that his life held importance because it influenced others or affected the course of history. But this gives only a relative significance to his life, not an ultimate significance. His life may be important relative to other people or certain events, but those people and events are insignificant, since they too are headed foe non existence. All of history and it's events and persons are meaningless, so what ultimate significance is there in influencing any of them ? :"

The universe will die, as will all humanity and no matter how long they exist, they can inhabit only a tiny flash of time in eternity.

The problem of man; because he and everything end in nothing, he and everything are nothing, and can have no value, no importance, no ultimate significance. Man and everything are absurdities Quotations from, The Existence of God and the Beginning of the Universe. By William L. Craig, PhD., D. Theo.

THOUGHTS ?

Why would a god belief make a life more meaningful? How does believing that one is going to heaven to praise a deity for eternity give that life any extra purpose at all?

[Life] works ? You call oblivion working, nicely ?

No, he's talking about life, not death.

 

[Apologes]

This is one of the cases where I'm not necessarily on the same page as Craig. I agree that if there is no God man is ultimatively irrelevant, but I think Craig (much like the existentialists before him) glosses over the value that we have relative to others. He takes the fact that we have no objective meaning on atheism to be a pressuring cause for concern and something that will make one search for a worldview which may grant us that (theism), but great many people will be content with their humble relative worth.

Of course, there will also be many who will not be content with such a view and will want to matter in the grand scale of things. For those, the argument will be appealing. I guess this is just one of those arguments whose persuasiveness will depend on the tastes of the person you're talking to.

 

[Mock Turtle]

" If God does not exist, life can be considered absurd. If there is no God, man is inevitably doomed to death. like all biological organisms, he must die, and with no hope of immortality, his life leads no further than the grave."

" It might be said that his life held importance because it influenced others or affected the course of history. But this gives only a relative significance to his life, not an ultimate significance. His life may be important relative to other people or certain events, but those people and events are insignificant, since they too are headed foe non existence. All of history and it's events and persons are meaningless, so what ultimate significance is there in influencing any of them ? :"

The universe will die, as will all humanity and no matter how long they exist, they can inhabit only a tiny flash of time in eternity.

The problem of man; because he and everything end in nothing, he and everything are nothing, and can have no value, no importance, no ultimate significance. Man and everything are absurdities Quotations from, The Existence of God and the Beginning of the Universe. By William L. Craig, PhD., D. Theo.

THOUGHTS ?

This is just so ridiculous and pathetic. We are born and know we will die but what happens in between can mean as much to us as we are prepared to accept - and to others if we have lived a good enough life. To compare the scale of a human life to virtually anything else is just inane and bordering on insanity, and especially so if we compared ourselves with other life. We conceptualise some gods and then embark on this self-destructive navel-gazing when we should be putting meaning into our lives - we have the freedom to do so - unlike most other life.

If we had any common sense we wouldn't listen to those who create such ludicrous propositions. Of course we will all die, and of course our sun will die too, and of course the whole of reality might disappear next year for all we know, but we humans generally have an allotted span of about 100 years so just make the most of it. How does that compare with other timescales? Religions and all the philosophical suppositions often do more damage than anything else. We have enough problems without so many nay-sayers to make us all feel bad. Have some imagination and hope for the future.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I agree that if there is no God man is ultimatively irrelevant, ...

What on earth does that mean? How does one follow the other? If there is no God and we just happen to be the only intelligent life in the universe - unlikely that this is - what would that mean? That we might be the seeding of immense civilisations etc. - why would that make us irrelevant? It's mind-boggling how some can come to such conclusions.

 

[Apologes]

What on earth does that mean? How does one follow the other? If there is no God and we just happen to be the only intelligent life in the universe - unlikely that this is - what would that mean? That we might be the seeding of immense civilisations etc. - why would that make us irrelevant? It's mind-boggling how some can come to such conclusions.

If you find it mind-boggling make sure you've double checked what is actually being said. We're talking about relevance in the context of making a difference in the grand scheme of things, what is called 'ultimate significance'.

If you think humanity has that sort of thing on atheism then the burden of proof is on you to explain how.

 

[Mock Turtle]

If you find it mind-boggling make sure you've double checked what is actually being said. We're talking about relevance in the context of making a difference in the grand scheme of things, what is called 'ultimate significance'.

If you think humanity has that sort of thing on atheism then the burden of proof is on you to explain how.

How would we know any of this, given we have only been scientifically literate for a few centuries? And what has God got to do with any of this?

 

[Apologes]

How would we know any of this, given we have only been scientifically literate for a few centuries?

We're talking about philosophy here first and foremost. Either way, science does tell us that the universe will eventually die either in a heat death or freezing which will spell doom for all life in the universe.

If you don't think that's bad news for humanity then I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

[Mock Turtle]

We're talking about philosophy here first and foremost. Either way, science does tell us that the universe will eventually die either in a heat death or freezing which will spell doom for all life in the universe.

If you don't think that's bad news for humanity then I'm not sure what to tell you.

So what? You do understand the timescales involved? It's like saying an insect that lives for a day has no value compared with a cat that lives for several years compared with a human who lives for a hundred years compared with a glacier that is continually moving and losing bits. It's all relative. We have our lives regardless of how we compare them with anything else. I rail against religions for often being negative but philosophy is often equally so.

We need a lot more positivity in the world - since we have enough problems anyway.

 

[Pudding]

"If God does not exist, life can be considered absurd. If there is no God, man is inevitably doomed to death. like all biological organisms, he must die, and with no hope of immortality, his life leads no further than the grave."

Not necessarily. What if it's the Holy Unicorn, Pixie King, or The Cosmic Turtle who responsible for the creation of universe and humanity? They can also give us objective meaning and immortality like how God is presume to give us those things. The conclusion is that if God does not exist, it doesn't necessarily also means that objective meaning and immortality doesn't exist nor that life is absurb.

"It might be said that his life held importance because it influenced others or affected the course of history. But this gives only a relative significance to his life, not an ultimate significance. His life may be important relative to other people or certain events, but those people and events are insignificant, since they too are headed foe non existence. All of history and it's events and persons are meaningless, so what ultimate significance is there in influencing any of them ?"

Holy Unicorn, Pixie King, The Cosmic Turtle or any other candidates for the role of universe creator, if anyone of them exists.

The universe will die, as will all humanity and no matter how long they exist, they can inhabit only a tiny flash of time in eternity.

The problem of man; because he and everything end in nothing, he and everything are nothing, and can have no value, no importance, no ultimate significance. Man and everything are absurdities Quotations from, The Existence of God and the Beginning of the Universe. By William L. Craig, PhD., D. Theo.

THOUGHTS ?

Holy Unicorn, Pixie King, The Cosmic Turtle and any other candidates for the role of universe creator, if anyone of them exists, disagree with William L. Craig, PhD., D. Theo.

 

[Apologes]

So what? You do understand the timescales involved? It's like saying an insect that lives for a day has no value compared with a cat that lives for several years compared with a human who lives for a hundred years compared with a glacier that is continually moving and losing bits. It's all relative. We have our lives regardless of how we compare them with anything else. I rail against religions for often being negative but philosophy is often equally so.

We need a lot more positivity in the world - since we have enough problems anyway.

As I said, you ought to double check what is actually being said. Craig isn't saying we don't have significance relative to others, but that we don't have ultimate significance.

To you your lifespan may seem long and perfectly sufficient, but in the timescale of the universe it's completely irrelevant. It's not just eternity that makes for 'ultimate significance, it's also fullness of said eternal life and the difference it makes in the grand scheme of things.

If there is a God, a person will attain immortality and will be fulfilled given how God is the greatest good one can enjoy. Further more, if there is a God, how we live our lives and whether we exist or not does matter in the grand scheme of things since the outcome will be different depending on our actions (things won't end in eternal darkness and emptiness regardless of whether we existed or not) as we will be playing our parts in God's plan for the world. On theism then, all the conditions for 'ultimate significance' seem to be fulfilled.

 

[Mock Turtle]

As I said, you ought to double check what is actually being said. Craig isn't saying we don't have significance relative to others, but that we don't have ultimate significance.

To you your lifespan may seem long and perfectly sufficient, but in the timescale of the universe it's completely irrelevant. It's not just eternity that makes for 'ultimate significance, it's also fullness of said eternal life and the difference it makes in the grand scheme of things.

Just navel-gazing, and totally irrelevant for humans.

If there is a God, a person will attain immortality and will be fulfilled given how God is the greatest good one can enjoy. Further more, if there is a God, how we live our lives and whether we exist or not does matter in the grand scheme of things since the outcome will be different depending on our actions (things won't end in eternal darkness and emptiness regardless of whether we existed or not) as we will be playing our parts in God's plan for the world. On theism then, all the conditions for 'ultimate significance' seem to be fulfilled.

God or no God, we can have as much meaning as we want. The supposition of God or gods often leads to such negative thinking - which is why I leave the question alone. And philosophers are just as bad in this respect.

 

[Mock Turtle]

This is a typical case where logic (and any companions) should be locked in the attic and the key thrown to the dogs. I'm finished!

 

[Apologes]

Just navel-gazing, and totally irrelevant for humans.

Kindly speak for yourself.

God or no God, we can have as much meaning as we want.

That's just an assertion which you've yet to support.

The supposition of God or gods often leads to such negative thinking - which is why I leave the question alone. And philosophers are just as bad in this respect.

You left the question alone yet you're talking about in this thread and have been quoting me and others in an effort to prove us wrong for the past few posts. You're not very convincing you know.

 

[blü 2]

" If God does not exist, life can be considered absurd.

Why?

If there is no God, man is inevitably doomed to death. like all biological organisms, he must die, and with no hope of immortality, his life leads no further than the grave."

That's right. What's so hot about immortality? If a soul existed, it wouldn't have glands so it wouldn't have emotions, motives, purposes, couldn't enjoy food, wine, sex, sport, couldn't even take a deep breath.

And the Tanakh only gets the idea of a soul late. In Job, and Ecclesiastes, are verses pointing out that death is the end. Even Paul thinks death is the end, and his whole ad campaign is claiming a way of avoiding this. (Some Jews, and the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Persians and Norse already had versions.)

" It might be said that his life held importance because it influenced others or affected the course of history. But this gives only a relative significance to his life, not an ultimate significance.

There's no such thing as 'ultimate significance'. Significance is a judgment made by individual brains, not an objective quality.

The universe will die, as will all humanity and no matter how long they exist, they can inhabit only a tiny flash of time in eternity.

Not my problem.

Besides, 99.9% (or something like that) of species that have ever existed are already extinct.

Man and everything are absurdities

That someone or something is an absurdity is a judgment. I have no idea why your author thinks that. I don't.

I think it's just the same old sales con trick ─ frighten your audience with a pretend problem and then sell 'em snake oil to fix it.

 

[tempogain]

Craig forges ahead from the shelter of his presuppositions in typical style here. I ask some quick questions and then give thoughts at the bottom.

" If God does not exist, life can be considered absurd. If there is no God, man is inevitably doomed to death. like all biological organisms, he must die, and with no hope of immortality, his life leads no further than the grave."

No argument, but why "absurd"?

" It might be said that his life held importance because it influenced others or affected the course of history. But this gives only a relative significance to his life, not an ultimate significance. His life may be important relative to other people or certain events, but those people and events are insignificant, since they too are headed foe non existence. All of history and it's events and persons are meaningless, so what ultimate significance is there in influencing any of them ? :"

None. So?

The universe will die, as will all humanity and no matter how long they exist, they can inhabit only a tiny flash of time in eternity.

Yep. So?

The problem of man; because he and everything end in nothing, he and everything are nothing, and can have no value, no importance,

I don't believe that follows logically.

no ultimate significance.

Yep. So?

Man and everything are absurdities

There's that again. I'd like to see it explained.

Craig starts with what he perceives as a problem--we don't have ultimate significance--but it isn't explained why this is a problem. He further seems clearly to feel this situation represents an "absurdity", but that isn't explained either.

Luckily, in any event, the solution is at hand! If there were a significance-imbuing creator, then we would have significance. Unfortunately, it isn't made clear how it would give us significance, how IT is significant (turtles all the way down), or... if it even exists. Ultimately its existence would seem to be a matter of belief, which would seem to be a bit of a problem. I may as well just believe that our existence is significant as far as I can see (not that I care to--I'm perfectly capable of finding my own meaning in life in concert with those around me).

Probably Craig has some explanation for some of these points. Interested in hearing of any of them!

 

[Mock Turtle]

Kindly speak for yourself.

"God or no God, we can have as much meaning as we want."

That's just an assertion which you've yet to support.

Not true - life has a habit of providing this often.

You left the question alone yet you're talking about in this thread and have been quoting me and others in an effort to prove us wrong for the past few posts. You're not very convincing you know.

Neither are the propositions. All irrelevant if there is no God.

 

[Apologes]

There's that again. I'd like to see it explained.

Craig starts with what he perceives as a problem--we don't have ultimate significance--but it isn't explained why this is a problem. He further seems clearly to feel this situation represents an "absurdity", but that isn't explained either.

The whole argument is from the perspective of ultimate significance. To Craig, if something doesn't have it, it'll be absurd in the objective sense that it ultimately didn't make any difference. He doesn't really think significance relative to other people/events amounts to much if none of that will have ever-lasting consequence. (Humanity will end the same way regardless of whether you live like a saint or like Hitler.) To him, absurd existence just is one that lacks ultimate significance.

I understand other people will have different criteria of absurdity which is why I said in my first post here, the argument at hand ultimately depends on one's personal tastes. Some people will be fine with lack of ultimate significance, others will find the argument persuasive.

Luckily, in any event, the solution is at hand! If there were a significance-imbuing creator, then we would have significance. Unfortunately, it isn't made clear how it would give us significance,

As I said in a previous post, if there is a God, a person will attain immortality and will be fulfilled given how God is the greatest good one can enjoy. Further more, if there is a God, how we live our lives and whether we exist or not does matter in the grand scheme of things since the outcome will be different depending on our actions (things won't end in eternal darkness and emptiness regardless of whether we existed or not) as we will be playing our parts in God's plan for the world. On theism then, all the conditions for 'ultimate significance' seem to be fulfilled.

how IT is significant (turtles all the way down)

Craig is a proponent of anselmian perfect being theology. To him, to be God just is to be a perfect being (that would include significance) and if any being were to lack significance, then that being simply wouldn't be God. He's not really concerned with explaining this here though since the argument we're talking about here is focused on the human predicament and doesn't really concern itself with God's own state.

, or... if it even exists.

Much like the one above, this simply isn't an issue relevant to the argument at hand. Craig is the first to say that the argument in question has nothing to do with whether God exists or not. It's just analyzing the implications of atheism and theism if they were true.

Ultimately its existence would seem to be a matter of belief, which would seem to be a bit of a problem.

I'm pretty sure that, if you're at all familiar with Craig, you know he provides a whole set of arguments which aim to prove the existence of God.

I may as well just believe that our existence is significant as far as I can see (not that I care to--I'm perfectly capable of finding my own meaning in life in concert with those around me).

I don't think Craig has ever denied you the right to make your own meaning to life. He concedes this relative significance, but simply doesn't think it amounts to much.

Probably Craig has some explanation for some of these points. Interested in hearing of any of them!

Hope my post was helpful!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

This is one of the cases where I'm not necessarily on the same page as Craig. I agree that if there is no God man is ultimately irrelevant, but I think Craig (much like the existentialists before him) glosses over the value that we have relative to others. He takes the fact that we have no objective meaning on atheism to be a pressuring cause for concern and something that will make one search for a worldview which may grant us that (theism), but great many people will be content with their humble relative worth.

Ultimate significance is a ruse. It is a phrase used by people like Craig to make one dissatisfied with his life absent a god belief, which Craig implies gives it not merely more significance, but ultimate significance.

And though Craig gives lip service to the significance people claim to feel their lives to be, he then dismissively calls it irrelevant and absurd.

Craig wants us to be dissatisfied with our lives. He is actively trying to drain significance from it by convincing others of its meaninglessness if one doesn't believe in his god.

Actually, what I see in Craig is a man struggling to find and hold on to significance in his life as a result of looking in the wrong direction to find it. If you're searching for meaning in life anywhere but in the people and events of your life, you're not going to find it, and will spend the rest of your years searching in vain.

Of course, there will also be many who will not be content with such a view and will want to matter in the grand scale of things. For those, the argument will be appealing.

But obviously, nobody actually matters any more because they choose to believe people like Craig.

The supposition of God or gods often leads to such negative thinking

Yes, which is kind of the point. These beliefs cause discontent, a discontent that draws people in looking for answers to meaningless questions about ultimate purpose and the meaning of life. This relates back to the endless searching thing I just mentioned, which the searchers seem to see as a virtue.

To me, endless implies that something's missing, like a person low in vitamin C craving citrus.

Then there are the people who will tell you that they are content and are not searching for more in life except perhaps new friends and adventures. Strangely, these are the people that the searchers see as missing something. They are described as spiritually blind, or living on a lower plane. Craig considers such lives absurd and irrelevant.

It's not difficult to see him in exactly that light. Aren't perpetual seekers analogous to people that spend their entire lives searching for a house? Is that a virtue to be emulated or admired? Are they on a higher plane than those who long ago found a house that they liked and are still happy in it?

 

[Apologes]

Ultimate significance is a ruse. It is a phrase used by people like Craig to make one dissatisfied with his life absent a god belief, which Craig implies gives it not merely more significance, but ultimate significance.

And though Craig gives lip service to the significance people claim to feel their lives to be, he then dismissively calls it irrelevant and absurd.

Craig wants us to be dissatisfied with our lives. He is actively trying to drain significance from it by convincing others of its meaninglessness if one doesn't believe in his god.

This is just your own projection. Craig is aligning himself with the reasoning of existential philosophers that came long before him (plenty of whom were atheists) and is presenting a philosophical argument for that which he claims to believe.

The fact that you think this is some kind of trick that Craig uses to degrade others is just another example of what I previously pointed out, you have no idea what Craig is actually arguing for and are uncharitably trying to paint him in charlatan colors.

Actually, what I see in Craig is a man struggling to find and hold on to significance in his life as a result of looking in the wrong direction to find it.

Where is your evidence that Craig is going through such a struggle? Why couldn't it be that people who think differently than you are actually sincere and satisfied with their worldview?

If you're searching for meaning in life anywhere but in the people and events of your life, you're not going to find it, and will spend the rest of your years searching in vain.

But obviously, nobody actually matters any more because they choose to believe people like Craig.

"People like Craig" - people who don't follow your train of thought? It's telling that you devote more time making assumptions about Craig's personal life and motivations then actually addressing the argument at hand. Indeed, all you did was try to present the quest for 'ultimate significance' as a deceptive strategy which is again just an assumption about your opponent's motivations rather than a sound rebuttal.