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From where are rights derived?

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I personally think it is a sense of reasonableness and morality is where we derive our concept of universal human rights. As the Nazis showed, it can be quite politically expedient and practical to deny rights to a slice of the population... it can justify giving a fascist regime power and/or the ability to oppress/murder its citizenry. So I disagree that political expediency or practicality is where we derive our concept of rights.

Except that it wasn't really practical for the Nazis. By denying rights to certain groups of people, Germany was weakened. Einstein and many others who could have been assets were forced to flee. Likewise, their obsession over their Aryan "master race" theory alienated quite a number of would-be allies who would have been more than willing to fight with them against the Soviets.

The U.S. followed a different course, but even we eventually learned that we couldn't go on with a system of rights which varied with different groups. Especially after WW2 and collapse of colonialism, no one was going to be fooled by governments advocating unequal rights.

BTW, when I use the term "rights" in this context, I always mean "universal human rights" and NOT the particular "rights" of powerful people to exercise their power. I might call the latter "privilege." (Although this is a distinction that not everyone makes when they use the term; I'm just saying what I mean when *I* say "rights.")

I agree.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That's one of the (few) things that distances him from the fascists, he hates the military and he can't hide it. He has insulted the troops and some soldiers openly. And without the military or against the military you can't have a successful coup.

No, the Bible doesn’t refer to torture or hot coals in reference to one’s eternal destiny.

I don’t have my own version of heaven. The biblical version is that heaven is a place of holiness, love, purity, joy, peace , beauty, and creativity; no tears, suffering, or death. No one can have eternal life in heaven unless perfectly holy and righteous, which is impossible for anyone, since everyone sins and falls short of God’s perfect holiness. The Bible says eternal life in heaven is available through the forgiveness and righteousness of the Savior, Jesus Christ.
Both Old and New Testament disagree with you. Yes, you can go to heaven, not a very good one but it is a possibility in the Bible. But there are also verses that supported eternal torment:

 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
Except that it wasn't really practical for the Nazis. By denying rights to certain groups of people, Germany was weakened. Einstein and many others who could have been assets were forced to flee. Likewise, their obsession over their Aryan "master race" theory alienated quite a number of would-be allies who would have been more than willing to fight with them against the Soviets.

It WAS practical though. You are forgetting how messy sociology is. By making a "boogeyman" out of Jews and others, the Nazis legitimized their regime. And not only that, they scared the populous into granting them power because "otherwise the Jews will get you."

It might not seem very practical or efficient because you lose assets like Einstein. But having assets among your intelligentsia is only one practical matter among many that a fledgling regime must consider. A blindly obedient populous might also be counted as an asset.

Therefore, human rights are not a practical matter but a moral matter. Under certain conditions, tyranny works. And sometimes it works pretty damn well.
 

EconGuy

Active Member
Rights are an attempt to put ideals into practice
<---See my avatar.
but humans beings are too conflicted for ideals
Humans, as a whole aren't rational, but worse many think they are who are not.
We desire the attainment of conflicting goals.
See above.
This does not mean that ideals don't exist.
Agreed.
What this implies is that rights are something which we partially implement and which only truly exist in idea space, but we keep trying to get closer to them.
Conceptually, I think part of the problem is that few people really give much thought to rights and how they emerge.

I see rights as a concept that is rooted in the recognition of shared values. When individuals or groups discover that they value the same things, they may seek to codify and protect those values through the creation of laws and other legal mechanisms. This process of codification and protection is what gives rise to rights.

The enforcement of laws that protect rights is not seen as violence or self-interest, but rather as a way to maintain the agreements that people have made about what values they will collectively uphold. In this way, rights are not simply given to individuals by a higher power or by the government. Rather, they are the product of a complex social process that involves the negotiation and agreement of individuals and groups.

Its like romance, because it is the pursuit that matters, not the attainment.
I understand what your saying. Humans aren't perfect and as a whole historically strive to be better. That said attaining the ideal, as you put it, would be fantastic, but given the irrational nature of humans we're unlikely to achieve the ideals presented in works of fiction, like Star Trek.
We do have rights but can never fully attain them.
But that's just it, do we have rights? I think we want rights and we create systems to actualize them. Kind of like a system of measurement. Distances between objects exist in reality, by recognizing the value of a system of measurement, agreeing to a standard, codifying the system and then sharing that system and ultimately enforcing it.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
What makes something be a right? By what standards do we ought to evaluate the claim that something is a right?

What distinguishes an empty claim about something being a right and something de facto a right?

My answer is that the only distinction between an empty claim and the real deal is someone backing up through force the existence of that right. And therefore, we can effectively say that a government created rights.

Well, I already know you're gonna hate my reply because of prior discussions we've had.

As I said above, we get our notion of rights from a blend of morality and reasonableness. I already know you reject the idea that morality can be objective and reasonable (because you don't think it can be objective).

And since you think of things that way, sure, I guess there are just certain powers in the world that support certain ideas. If they just so happen to be "rights" then rights exist because of support from these regimes.

"What makes something be a right? By what standards do we ought to evaluate the claim that something is a right?"

The difference between you and I is that you consider these to be rhetorical questions. Questions that can't be reasonably answered. When you hear these questions, it signals the end of the debate. When *I* hear these questions, I want to start writing an essay whose thesis is: "There is a way to answer these questions, but none of the answers is easy."
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Military rule is out of the picture for Trump. As they have already demonstrated, the military doesn't take orders from Trump.

Trump's dream was to overturn the election by threat and intimidation and rule as "democratically elected" President.

Makes sense.

What doesn't is the idea that having destroyed the democratic (small d) framework that elections rest on that everyone would then turn round and accept his "revised" election and tamely treat him as a legitimate president. But then he's never been known for his logical thinking.
 

EconGuy

Active Member
What makes something be a right? By what standards do we ought to evaluate the claim that something is a right?
As I said in my post above, I believe that rights emerge from a consensus of shared values.

The more interesting thing is that groups of people can value things that don't promote the kinds of things that are shared by larger communities.

Hitler and the Nazis being the go-to example.

But there are plenty of others. I think that lack of knowledge and understanding can be a barrier to achieving the goals a person and community set for themselves.
What distinguishes an empty claim about something being a right and something de facto a right?
Personally, I don't think there is an objective standard. It's like trying to play a game before you've established the rules. The rules are always subjective, but subjective does not mean arbitrary. Subjective means we make choices and those choices are often in the confines or boundaries of some sort of goal or desire.

Why are there 3 strikes in baseball and not 50? Why does a foot measure the distance in space that it measures? Because it's useful and achieves some sort of goal or desire.

And therefore, we can effectively say that a government created rights.
The Constitution says "all men are created equal" in a time when clearly all men weren't equal. Today, we're doing better, so what changed? It wasn't the Constitution. It wasn't the government. It was our shared values, knowledge and understanding. Of course there are conflicts, our beliefs can be barriers to understanding and achieving the goals most people might agree are goals we'd like to achive.

That said there is more. As rights are also a function of environment. How would a person the describe the rights of a person who becomes paralyzed in a hunter gather society, where moving is required to survive?

Government's are created to codify, and enforce our rights and give them legitimacy to those subject to them.
 
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EconGuy

Active Member
I already know you reject the idea that morality can be objective and reasonable (because you don't think it can be objective).
I don't want to hijack the thread (my thread...lol), but please start a thread on moral subjective vs objectivity? I mean I can do it if you perfer. That is a talk I would enjoy.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
No, the Bible doesn’t refer to torture or hot coals in reference to one’s eternal destiny.

I don’t have my own version of heaven. The biblical version is that heaven is a place of holiness, love, purity, joy, peace , beauty, and creativity; no tears, suffering, or death. No one can have eternal life in heaven unless perfectly holy and righteous, which is impossible for anyone, since everyone sins and falls short of God’s perfect holiness. The Bible says eternal life in heaven is available through the forgiveness and righteousness of the Savior, Jesus Christ.

Horribly off topic I know, but something I've thought about.

Loosely, heaven is only for those free from sin. We are unable to attain that level. So we don't go to heaven. Logical so far.

BUT we can somehow get in through Jesus. I see that as a kind of guest membership. Nevertheless, we are still sinful, but are now allowed in heaven, which seems to contradict the rule.

Can you explain?
 

EconGuy

Active Member
Loosely, heaven is only for those free from sin. We are unable to attain that level. So we don't go to heaven. Logical so far.
Not a Christian here, but I think I can answer that one.

It's not that you have to be free of sin, rather that you have acknowledged and asked for forgiveness of your sins. Absolution.

Exactly how that done varies from sect-to-sect, but as you point out, it usually involves recognizing Jesus as the son of the almighty.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
As mentioned by @sayak83 in #36, I'm in agreement as to rights being a social contract that any group of people, and mostly of societies or even whole countries, agree to adopt, with a corresponding taking on of responsibilities as to ensuring such are applicable to all, and people knowing what they gain or lose by respecting such rights or not doing so. I don't believe humans have any 'natural rights', but life seems to be easier overall, and more pleasant, if we do have such rights rather than other situations developing - like various things being imposed upon us and coming from some particular viewpoint. And reciprocal rights seems to be the closest as to what many moral systems have as a basis - something like, the Golden Rule along with Kant's categorical imperative.

I agree. Where though does a simple rule end and a right begin? In other words, can we define a "right" in a way that makes it different from a "rule" or "law" or even "guideline"?

Serious question, as people do seem to see rights as higher forms of rules, etc.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
I don't want to hijack the thread (my thread...lol), but please start a thread on moral subjective vs objectivity? I mean I can do it if you perfer. That is a talk I would enjoy.

I've already started one or two here, so I don't wanna be that guy who posts multiple threads on the same topic constantly. If you post a thread on it, I'll try to respond at some point. Or you could see answers I've already provided in this thread starting here.
 

EconGuy

Active Member
I've already started one or two here, so I don't wanna be that guy who posts multiple threads on the same topic constantly. If you post a thread on it, I'll try to respond at some point. Or you could see answers I've already provided in this thread starting here.
Since I'm interested in discussion with you, given your comments, I'll respond to the link you posted. Thanks!
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It WAS practical though. You are forgetting how messy sociology is. By making a "boogeyman" out of Jews and others, the Nazis legitimized their regime. And not only that, they scared the populous into granting them power because "otherwise the Jews will get you."

It might not seem very practical or efficient because you lose assets like Einstein. But having assets among your intelligentsia is only one practical matter among many that a fledgling regime must consider. A blindly obedient populous might also be counted as an asset.

Therefore, human rights are not a practical matter but a moral matter. Under certain conditions, tyranny works. And sometimes it works pretty damn well.

You make some good points, although I would still maintain that, in the long run, their policies brought about their own failure - mainly because they went too far, alienated so many people, operated without any semblance of restraint or honor - and ended up angering more and more people who wanted to wipe the entire country off the map.

So, yes, tyranny did work, to a point - and I would concede that nationalism, in and of itself, can be quite compelling, especially for a nation like Germany still reeling from their defeat in WW1. Plus, they felt threatened by the rise of the Soviets and their own Communist Party in Germany, so it seems that many Germans probably didn't care so much about "rights" as much as they wanted a strong leadership to protect them from enemies and to restore their national honor. It might be argued that, since they had been used to living under Kaisers and the iron-fisted rule of men like Bismarck, it was something more familiar to them, so their political culture wasn't really geared towards that concept. But after WW2, Germany and the world ended up learning some harsh lessons.

I agree that human rights are most definitely a moral matter, without question. However, there is still a practical side, since the general focus of public opinion also tends to carry a certain of moral and social consciousness. It's not like in the past where the political culture tended to think it was okay to have segregation or deny certain groups rights - or in some regions or countries where the population was largely kept ignorant so they weren't even aware that they had rights. Now, more and more people are literate and aware of the world. (Dare I say "woke"?) People are aware that they have rights as citizens and as human beings, so tyranny is not as easy to maintain as it used to be. It's still easy to scare people and make them afraid of bullies, but there are more places for people to run these days - and a plethora of media for people to tell their stories of tyranny to the world. And the world can and does react - sometimes, but not always.

So, even tyrants of today have to "play the game," so to speak, to try to make it look like they're supporting human rights and legitimate legal principles.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Not a Christian here, but I think I can answer that one.

It's not that you have to be free of sin, rather that you have acknowledged and asked for forgiveness of your sins. Absolution.

Exactly how that done varies from sect-to-sect, but as you point out, it usually involves recognizing Jesus as the son of the almighty.

Still doesn't make sense.

If forgiveness applies to past sins, then I am still going to continue to sin in heaven. If forgiveness applies to all sins, past and future, I will still sin in heaven, even if the sin is already forgiven. it still means that sin (sinful actions) happens in heaven which goes against the basic rule, as I see it.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
The punishment for breaking it and who enforces it?

I'll attempt an answer to my own question. Taking the US Bill of Rights as an example, rights set out a general rule and laws fill in the particulars. Using free speech as an example, the Amendment says

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Nevertheless, there are legal limitations on speech.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
What makes something be a right? By what standards do we ought to evaluate the claim that something is a right?

What distinguishes an empty claim about something being a right and something de facto a right?

My answer is that the only distinction between an empty claim and the real deal is someone backing up through force the existence of that right. And therefore, we can effectively say that a government created rights.
How about looking at it from the other direction altogether? So:
  1. Parliaments and governments must adequately justify making anything illegal (driving a car under the age of 5, blindfolded or after 16 scotches, for example),
  2. If they have done that, then anything not explicitly made illegal may considered a right, should you choose to pursue it.
I wonder if our resident Libertarian, @Revoltingest, would buy into that little foray into sophistry.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Well, I already know you're gonna hate my reply because of prior discussions we've had.

As I said above, we get our notion of rights from a blend of morality and reasonableness.

Let me just say I agree with this part. The final result however is going to be fairly distinct depending on whose morality and reasonableness we are talking about, thus why we end up with different sets of rights (that have many points in common).

I already know you reject the idea that morality can be objective and reasonable (because you don't think it can be objective).

And since you think of things that way, sure, I guess there are just certain powers in the world that support certain ideas. If they just so happen to be "rights" then rights exist because of support from these regimes.

"What makes something be a right? By what standards do we ought to evaluate the claim that something is a right?"

The difference between you and I is that you consider these to be rhetorical questions. Questions that can't be reasonably answered. When you hear these questions, it signals the end of the debate. When *I* hear these questions, I want to start writing an essay whose thesis is: "There is a way to answer these questions, but none of the answers is easy."

Not quite rhetorical questions but I think I know what you mean by that.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
How about looking at it from the other direction altogether? So:
  1. Parliaments and governments must adequately justify making anything illegal (driving a car under the age of 5, blindfolded or after 16 scotches, for example),
  2. If they have done that, then anything not explicitly made illegal may considered a right, should you choose to pursue it.
I wonder if our resident Libertarian, @Revoltingest, would buy into that little foray into sophistry.

1) Why consider those to be rights?
2) I take it you are mostly thinking of negative rights, but what about positive rights?
 
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