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Frustrated athiest asks why do you believe in God?

cladking

Well-Known Member
Thanks, but you supported by point that it is unreliable. It might be correct sometimes, but not reliably correct. It is a gut feeling, and could be wrong.

Yes!!! Intuition can be wrong. Being wrong is the state in which humans exist.

But the point you are missing is that there is never an equation that can predict the future or even explain the present. If there were an equation we could not quantify all the variables.

Maybe it would help you to think of "intuition" as a sort of high speed thought experiment. Rather than trying to measure Sharon and Marylyn or define their characteristics we just pick the one with whom we imagine we'll be more (most) happy.

Believe it or not you can even zip through equations for which you don't measure each variable using the same techniques. Sure you can be off my orders of magnitude sometimes but often you never needed an exact number to start with. You can estimate "anything". But you still can't estimate things that are wholly unquantifiable which is far more of reality than believers think.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Obviously Thomas Jefferson was a worse human being than a kkk member since he owned slaves and most kkk members just burn crosses.
White Christians justified slavery through the Bible condoning it. While slavery is resolved legally the racism still lingers today among conservatives.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
People don't believe in science. Science is an objective method that tests hypothesis and reports results. We accept the results as they minimum standard in 99.95%.

That's about the same percentage of climate "scientists" that believe in global warming.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Nobody can find God with logic. There is no sound argument that ends, "Therefore God."

True.

If you've come to such a conclusion, you've used a different path. This is why believers are told repeatedly that their belief is irrational,

Rational does not mean accurate but "based on clear thought and reason". Reason "the cause of an event or situation or something that provides an excuse or explanation:"

Rational does not mean true. To me it means that it is based on an explanation presumably logical.

I'd include you in that group, although I don't know if you are a scientist. Like Newton, they and you have learned to compartmentalize faith-based thought.

Thanks for the complement. I actually have an MS Chemistry along with a psych masters.

My logic goes something like this - not a proof but reasoning from hypothesis. I'm not attempting to prove God exists which is why I agree with the first quote above but to start with hypothesis and see if there's a rational, reasonable conclusion.

So: if there is a God who is all loving, there must be a reasonable, logical explanation for all the misery and suffering we see in the world today. The explanation must be total. If there's one case where the explanation does not satisfy the hypothesis, it's disproven.

A simplistic answer is reincarnation and karma. If a child suffers it's because the child in a prior life inflicted suffering and is learning not to do that in this life.

But that leaves open the question of why a truly loving God would create a world that operated that way. If that's the only explanation, the hypothesis fails the test.

Another part of the answer is that the suffering is only apparent. When I'm asleep and dreaming, all kinds of things happen. When I wake up, all that is seen as just a dream. So logically if the initial hypothesis of a God who is loving is correct, we must all be in a dream.

But the question still remains. Why would a loving God create such a dream where there is apparent but unreal suffering?

Another step is advaita, non-dualism. From this, we are all collectively both individual and God. So God is dreaming of individuals that are God just as a dreamer interacts with apparent individuals that are in the dreamer's own mind.

But why? Why come up with this whole bloody scheme of things. Consulting the novel "Good Omens" ;), we can conclude that God is playing solitaire: Maybe it's all part of a great big ineffable plan. All of it. You, me, him, everything. Some great big test to see if what you've built all works properly, eh? You start thinking: it can't be a great cosmic game of chess, it has to be just very complicated Solitaire.”

And if it's solitaire, it must be possible to realize it's really solitaire which means to experience our God-nature. And that's the spiritual path.

I'm not claiming at all that this is true or even complete, just that it's possible to use reason and logic in theology starting from an unprovable hypothesis.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
They can become, ... not idiots. But they can't. And all the more-so because they don't even realize that they can't. It makes them not only idiots, but fools, too.

I've become more vocal in recent times because it is becoming obvious these "idiots" are becoming extremely dangerous on several fronts.

They think they can micromanage reality itself so they spend money that never existed while throwing monkey wrenches into the wheels of the economy, justice, and common sense. They destroy schools and say we need more education. They work or AI (thank God it's a dead end) without any preparation for the outcomes. They funnel wealth to the greedy in the belief they'll use it to help the poor. They destroy to create. They control government based on "science" that employs no experiment. They withhold scientific results because it flies in the face of their beliefs. Efficiency is measured not in net progress less cost but in net profit to the greediest. We continue to make weapons that can destroy the human race because we can. We perform experiments that might be hugely harmful because there is a need of the moment.

Believers aren't disturbed by the Peers of Science continually changing reality because they believe in linear progress and that we're always getting closer to the truth. So of course coffee can be good or bad for you and this changes as fast as soup du jour. Nobody is disturbed that "science" is bought and paid for by the highest bidder and no experiment is necessary.

Not even scientists will speak out most of the time.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Prove it. This is just an assumption you are making, not logic.
Ok, so show me where someone has proven life can kickstart itself.
It's anything but logical to assume life can come from anything but another life because that's what we always observe happening.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Ok, so show me where someone has proven life can kickstart itself.
That is not the science. The science is that inorganic molecules can become organic by certain atmospheric conditions. The Urey-Miller test did this to some degree. there is ongoing work in experimenting abiogenesis. This is a natural and plausible cause for organic molecules. there are no known Gods, or creators, or a supernatural that we can say is the cause for anything, let alone life.

Organic molecules are the building blocks of life. This is all well documented in science resources.

It's anything but logical to assume life can come from anything but another life because that's what we always observe happening.
This is the thinking of people who are not well informed, and it is promoted by creationists.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Yes!!! Intuition can be wrong. Being wrong is the state in which humans exist.

But the point you are missing is that there is never an equation that can predict the future or even explain the present. If there were an equation we could not quantify all the variables.

Maybe it would help you to think of "intuition" as a sort of high speed thought experiment. Rather than trying to measure Sharon and Marylyn or define their characteristics we just pick the one with whom we imagine we'll be more (most) happy.

Believe it or not you can even zip through equations for which you don't measure each variable using the same techniques. Sure you can be off my orders of magnitude sometimes but often you never needed an exact number to start with. You can estimate "anything". But you still can't estimate things that are wholly unquantifiable which is far more of reality than believers think.
None of this explains how intuition is reliable as a means to discern truth. If reasoning is available because you have facts then that is the only reliable option.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Really!?!????

Is that what you believe?
No, we observe racism among many conserve people and politicians. The whole challenge to CRT is a prime example of racism. That this rhetoric is working with many conservative citizens is disturbing.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
That is not the science. The science is that inorganic molecules can become organic by certain atmospheric conditions. The Urey-Miller test did this to some degree.
Life in a laboratory from non life? Hasn't happened. And if it did, it would still be created deliberately by humans, which still wouldn't prove life could start itself because it would not have had the perfect conditions and people guiding the process.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I believe our ancestors put human faces on each aspect of nature they could understand. They built a reality that existed as human and then lived in this created reality.

They created "God" in man's image.

We are merely confused because our words are ephemeral and mean something different to each listener. Even our thinking is a little ephemeral. So we believe God created man in his own image.

The reality is we wouldn't recognize God if he flicked our noses. I'm confident that He does at will. I'm far less certain about the nature of His will. Just as we see reality 0nly in glimpses we see God only in the gaps between glimpses.

Ancient Reality
I find it hard to reconcile your last paragraph with the ones before.

I'm not sure why someone who acknowledges that "God" is just a relatable face put onto nature would be a theist. It seems like you're falling into the same trap you recognize others falling into.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Prejudice and bias, which are preferences for one thing over another, are good things if they're rational, that is, derived empirically. That's what learning is - arriving at a set of preferences. People that have learned to evaluate evidence properly and come to sound conclusions - critical thinkers - have a justified prejudice against other methods of deciding what is true. They try to avoid thinking in those ways themselves, and they reject it in others. Yes, that's a prejudice, and one of the better ones, just as the prejudice against creative adding is a good one, because it is rational, and is part of learning how to add.

And this is exactly where believers in science went wrong. People believe what they want to believe and every single person wants to believe they can act rationally. This is a characteristic of consciousness to which modern people are blind. Consciousness is life, consciousness is rationality imposed on the "mind" which is difficult for us to see because we think in a language that is no longer rational. We each look around for the beliefs we choose to adopt and those who choose science do so for excellent reasons; it is highly rational. But many of us do not choose to believe in science because we know "science" can not answer any of the big questions and might never. It can't even shed any light on whether there's a God or not but it certainly can't tell us to marry Sharon or Marylyn. It can't tell us why we're here or how we got here and even if we choose to accept the shallow and facile explanations we are no closer to the truth.

You can have all the rational explanations you want but believing in science can't even tell you how gravity works. Indeed, believing in science can even close your eyes to things like the wonder of creation if we lose our ability to see anomalies completely. If you have no ability to see what you don't understand then everything you see is limited by your beliefs.

Did you want to rebut the claim made? You haven't. Nothing you wrote makes my comment untrue or less true.

I've spent some time recently investigating the various forms that disagreement takes, and recognized that only rebuttal has any value in resolving differences. Rebuttal is a specific form of disagreement, one requiring the presentation of a counterargument that, if correct, makes the argument refuted incorrect. I think I gave a few examples in this thread recently using a courtroom debate as an example, but maybe it was elsewhere. The prosecution makes a case for guilt. If everything presented is correct, the defendant is guilty. The defense cannot merely say nuh-uh, a primitive form of dissent, because the jury will convict if he cannot rebut. So, the defense attorney offers an alibi. The defendant was seen 100 miles from the scene of the crime when it was committed. This constitutes rebuttal, because if this is correct, the prosecution cannot be correct. The rebuttal and the position rebutted must be mutually exclusive for the rebuttal to be considered that. Other forms of dissent are irrelevant to debate.

To take it a little further, perhaps the prosecution now offers cellphone evidence that the defendant was in fact in the area, and the testimony of witnesses is false. That's a rebuttal, because if correct, it make the alibi claim wrong. The can't both be right - the defendant was 100 miles away and that he was pinging off a neighborhood cell tower. This might be rebutted with a claim that that the defendant never used that phone, that it must have been somebody else, restoring plausibility to the alibi. Next, the prosecution offers forensic evidence that that is incorrect - perhaps fingerprint or DNA evidence. The point is that the back and forth must be in the form of rebuttal to the claims made, not mere dissent, or the debate is over and the jury should now vote, as nothing that doesn't rebut the last plausible claim is relevant to the jury or the process of determining guilt.

Your answer is an example of what I would call the third level of dissent. Rebuttal of the main thesis is the highest and only meaningful form of dissent. Second is rebutting a piece of the argument- perhaps one of the examples used in its support - but not its central thesis, which thesis may still be correct even if one of the examples presented doesn't support it.

What you have done is to go off on a new tangent, making new claims that don't address what was posted. Even if everything you wrote were correct, the thesis remains unchallenged, just dismissed. Other forms of this are answers like, "You don't know what you're talking about" or "You do not have the gift of discernment" They are barely more than pure dissent: "That's not how I see it," which could be called a fourth level. Please note once again that nothing but rebuttal can advance the discussion and propel it toward resolution, as with the courtroom example. No comment that is not a rebuttal to the charges or the defense of them is relevant in coming to a verdict. The last unrebutted plausible theory prevails if the jury understands its responsibilities and how guilt is decided in a court of law.

Now perhaps you'd like another shot at explaining why you didn't agree with my comment, what it contains that you think you show to be incorrect. Maybe you'd like to explain why you consider, "Prejudice and bias, which are preferences for one thing over another, are good things if they're rational, that is, derived empirically" incorrect if you do, or why that isn't the very definition of learning as I suggested. Because at this point, those claims stand unrebutted, and your position that calling something biased without qualifying if the bias is rational (derived empirically, experientially) is defeated. Many biases are rational and desirable. My bias in favor of reason over faith is one such example. I acquired it empirically, and it is demonstrably the better method for deciding what's true about the world (learning).
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Life in a laboratory from non life? Hasn't happened.
You clearly aren't informed on the science. It is taught in the 7th grade. It's not like you portray here, life from non-life. That's not how it works. Life can emerge from organic molecules. The question is if and how organic molecules can form from inorganic molecules. There is a way this can happen and they are working to replicate this in a lab.

Let's note this is plausible in nature. There is no supernatural known to exist. So abiogenesis is superior as an explanation.

And if it did, it would still be created deliberately by humans, which still wouldn't prove life could start itself because it would not have had the perfect conditions and people guiding the process.
Irrelevant to the work being done. You need to inform yourself about abiogenesis.
 

Yazata

Active Member
If we go with natural theology and simply define God is as whatever the answer is to a set of metaphysical questions and if we accept the Principle of Sufficient Reason as a premise, then it's trivial to construct a logical proof of the existence of God.

1. The universe exists.

The universe and the order that it displays (laws of physics etc.) exist. That's seemingly self-evident to both common sense and to science.

2. For every x, if x exists, then a sufficient reason for x exists.

This is the Principle of Sufficient Reason, the idea that for any x, a reason exists at the very least for why that x is what it is and not something else. Science seemingly embraces it when it seeks explanations for things as varied as the existence and diversity of life on Earth, the origin of geological landforms or of the Solar System itself. Science isn't satisfied with being told 'That's just how things are'.

3. God is the universe's sufficient reason.

By definition, simply by describing how the word 'God' has often been used in natural theology.

4. A sufficient reason for the universe exists (from 1 and 2)

5. God exists (from 3 and 4)

So there's a logically valid proof of the existence of God. It might even be sound, since all three of its premises seem quite plausible.

There are obviously many objections that can be made to that. One might want to argue that 'exists' is being used equivocally. One might want to question the Principle of Sufficient Reason. And from the religious perspective, these kind of arguments don't deliver up a religious deity, something that is Holy and a suitable object of religious worship. We certainly don't have any convincing reason to equate this "God" with Yahweh, Allah or any of the Hindu deities. All we have is a rather tendentious religious name applied to whatever unknown something supposedly performs some metaphysical function.
 
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Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
That's not how it works. Life can emerge from organic molecules. The question is if and how organic molecules can form from inorganic molecules. There is a way this can happen and they are working to replicate this in a lab.
Again it hasn't happened. And if it did it still would be designed life.
 
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