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Fundamentalist Atheists
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CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
Well please define it.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
Why do you care how some atheists choose to define the word? It means what people use it to mean--usually a rejection of belief in gods. Some atheists like to maintain that it means just absence of belief, but that is not what people usually mean by it. So why be bothered over how some people choose to define it?
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
Because what Voltaire said...if you don't know the dance steps, don't bother coming to the dance.
If you cannot say what you mean or mean what you say then why bother saying it? If you cannot articulate what you mean then don't say it, and don't whistle it either.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
I'm trying to make sense of this answer as to why you care so much about how some atheists choose to define atheism. There will always be disagreements about what words mean. It's just important to be clear about what you mean. For those atheists who claim that the word refers to "lack of belief", as opposed to "rejection of belief", then they would refer to babies and people who are ignorant of the god concept as "atheists". I certainly wouldn't, and I doubt that most people ordinarily use the word in that meaning, but so what? Just be clear what you mean by it.
Some folks are downright imperialists when it comes to words. The only definition they'll accept is their own.
Do you also hold this position with regard to theists? It would really help everyone else if the so-called monotheists who believe in ten types of similar supernatural things but consider only one of them to be a god to get together with the so-called pantheists who believe their "god" to be entirely natural, without will, and without intelligence, along with all the other types of self-declared theists so that they can decide between themselves what the word "god" ought to mean.
Until this happens, theists are at a serious disadvantage explaning what THEY mean. Are you going to tell them, effectively, to just shut up as well?
At least in the case of Cynthia here, my impression is that her position is rooted more in dislike of atheism than being some sort of language stickler. She's already said that it's okay for theists to simply clarify how they personally use terms. It's only atheists that she tries to demand this stuff from.
Don't give us any of that common sense, it won't fly here.
Uberpod
Active Member
You would not call them theists would you? I hate to say it (because I usually rail against oversimpilifying the world into a two adimensional realm) I think it is a binary thing here. If you are not a theist, you are an atheist and vice versa. I would not object to others referring to a capital 'A' Atheist as someone who has studied, examined, and contemplated the issues and has concluded there are no dieties. So not all atheists are Atheists. Many atheists are agnostics, several are in a coma.
I like the term "believer'. In the right context, it covers non-atheists who aren't theists.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
There are actually several ways to define atheism, and they are not always compatible. That is, this word, like most other words of English, can have more than one sense, and you see that reflected in dictionary definitions. So you could define it as "rejection of belief in gods" or simply "rejection of theism". People like to quibble over definitions, and even lexicographers (the ones whose profession it is to define words) can get into heated arguments over them.
I do think that many of the folks here who are doing the arguing are really just having a rhetorical tugging match for a definition that seems to suit their biases. Nobody here seems really interested in approaching the subject objectively. The thread title itself is designed to wave a red flag in the faces of atheists. What really defines a word is not how people say they use it. It is how they actually use it, and that is not always obvious to them.
Uberpod
Active Member
I think 'believer' is too vague and quickly loses it's meaning in the wrong context. Paul McCartney agrees.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
I think that "absence" works just fine. However, I don't see it as hairsplitting at all since the general connotation and implication of "lack" is that someone is missing something that is desirable or necessary; that they have a deficiency in something. I don't see my atheism resulting in me lacking anything.
But I don't write syrupy sappy music & songs with grating grammar ("the world in which we live in"),
so I claim superior authority. But as I stated, in the right context "believer" does the job.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
Theism is not some sort of monolithic belief system, so there is no reason for a person who is strictly monotheistic to completely agree with a pantheist as to what a god is. These "theisms" are distinct from each other.
Distinction between theisms are drawn.
There are distinctions,
We can find the distinctions,
We can see the distinctions,
We can describe the distinctions,
And we can define the distinctions,
So the distinctions have been drawn.
There is no reason why a strict monotheist should agree with a strict pantheist. They are different types of theisms.
Now if you want to argue, that atheism is not a monolithic belief system either, then go ahead and draw the distinctions, find them, describe them and define them. Give us a definition of the various categories of atheism, tell us how many ways there are to not believe in deity.
I'm totally lacking a million dollars right now.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
Then you are an amillionaire.
Uberpod
Active Member
ooops, I meant Davey Jones.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
You mean Neil Diamond.