Gabbard nominated as Director of National Intelligence

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes, I do find it interesting that armchair warriors in the West think that Ukraine should hold at all costs and fight to the last man

Who are these armchair warriors?
Ukraine engaging in fierce resistance against the Russian aggression is the choice made by Ukraine.
The west is merely supporting them in their decision.

, yet within Ukraine itself, there are videos showing press gangs going around and pulling young men off the streets, sometimes kicking and screaming, as they ship them off to war. Some over there don't seem to want to fight to the last man.

And such isn't the case in Russia?

Having said that, when a country is attacked and its continued existence is literally threatened, then martial law comes into effect and mobilization occurs. This means that certain people will be required to take up arms. That also means that not all of those people are going to be happy about it.

Do you think my grandfather was happy to take up arms when the Nazi's invaded Belgium? He sure wasn't. He cried when he was drafter. Tough guy though. A wrestling champion actually. But he didn't want to go fight a war in the trenches. Yet he was forced to. That's how it goes in times of war.

There are also many Ukrainians who willingly enlisted voluntarily as well.

I'm not seeing massive discontent or protests or whatever from Ukrainian citizens demanding their governments to surrender to the Russian invaders.
So not sure what point you think you are making.

As a general principle, I agree that a country is better off to stay somewhat detached and not play favorites among other nations. That's something that George Washington warned about in his Farewell Address. Some people like to toss around terms like "Russophilia" and "Russian propaganda" so casually, but subscribing to the ideals laid down by George Washington can not possibly be considered "Russian propaganda" or anything to do with Russia at all.

Be that as it may, propaganda and misinformation is a serious business when it is being used for the purpose of justifying violations of the sovereignty of other nations, to try and justify or cover up warcrimes and crimes against humanity, to undermine democracy in other countries, etc.

It would be utterly stupid and self-destructive to turn a blind eye towards such.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

As a consequence of the Donbas War.
But he just wants those 4 regions. Let's give them to him, and let's terminate this pointless war. And move on.

Says it all, doesn't it?

First of all, the Donbas war is a war of Putin's creation.
Secondly, so your idea of "compromise" is to just give the bully what he's after. This is not "compromise". This is "surrender".
Third, that is not your or our decision to make, but for the Ukrainians to decide.

They want to defend their country.

 

[Estro Felino]

Says it all, doesn't it?

First of all, the Donbas war is a war of Putin's creation.
Secondly, so your idea of "compromise" is to just give the bully what he's after. This is not "compromise". This is "surrender".
Third, that is not your or our decision to make, but for the Ukrainians to decide.

They want to defend their country.

I understand.

You don't want Ukrainians to appear as "the losers".

I mean...when we surrendered to the Allies in 1943, we did because WW2 was the stupidest war ever, planned by unhinged devils and genocidal warmongers. So surrendering made us winners in our eyes.

 

[Stevicus]

I already knew that.
There are German videos of Ukrainians who say they are fleeing from a dictatorship that forces them to fight a war against their will.
Even Italy has been welcoming lots of Ukrainians as refugees. Political refugees.

And Kiev and its infinite mercilessness has demanded that we send these refugees back...so they can employ them in the army.

I'm against conscription of any kind. No one should be forced to fight a war against their will. Besides, an army of unwilling conscripts would not exactly be the most reliable fighting force to have. Of course, Russia seems to be facing the same problem, as their conscripts don't seem all that hep on fighting either.

The funny thing is that I cannot find any difference between Ukrainians and Russians.
They are very similar nations and I love them both.
So I just want them to stop fighting.

There are differences between Ukrainians and Russians, and they also have a long history with each other that goes back centuries. Perhaps there's some mutual resentment or bad blood they need to work out and try to reconcile. Whatever it is, I don't think it's our place to judge them, but to let them work it out for themselves.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Are you in good faith?

I am. But you aren't. Your posts make that very clear.

You are from the EU so you perfectly know how many Ukrainians are fleeing from the dictatorial regime of Kiev

They are feeling from a war caused by an invading army.
My housekeeper from eastern Ukraine is one of them.

, because the latter forces them to fight this war against their will.

omg.......................
Do you live on this planet?

And are welcomed as refugees in Germany, Italy etc...

In 1940s the Americans saved us from the Nazis, and the king signed an armistice with them because Italians were sick and tired of keeping fighting a lost war.

The Ukrainians are fighting a lost war against their will.

Comparing the Ukrainian cause of defending their country against an invading army with the Nazi / facist axis of evil from WW2. Absolutely priceless.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That's it? Just "nope"?

Yes. Your generalization of why people oppose Putin, which includes me, is not accurate.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I understand.

You most definitely don't.

You don't want Ukrainians to appear as "the losers".

Has nothing to do with it.

I mean...when we surrendered to the Allies in 1943, we did because WW2 was the stupidest war ever, planned by unhinged devils and genocidal warmongers. So surrendering made us winners in our eyes.

You were part of the axis of evil.
To compare the axis of evil to a country defending itself against outside aggression by a dictator, warcrimes, crimes against humanity, etc is despicable at best

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There are differences between Ukrainians and Russians, and they also have a long history with each other that goes back centuries. Perhaps there's some mutual resentment or bad blood they need to work out and try to reconcile.

And perhaps you should take some time learning about it before sharing uninformed platitudes.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'm against conscription of any kind. No one should be forced to fight a war against their will. Besides, an army of unwilling conscripts would not exactly be the most reliable fighting force to have. Of course, Russia seems to be facing the same problem, as their conscripts don't seem all that hep on fighting either.

And yet, I'm not seeing you speak out against Russia like you speak out against Ukraine. What's that about?

There are differences between Ukrainians and Russians, and they also have a long history with each other that goes back centuries. Perhaps there's some mutual resentment or bad blood they need to work out and try to reconcile. Whatever it is, I don't think it's our place to judge them, but to let them work it out for themselves.

So we should just sit back and watch a country get slaughtered by an invading anti-western force while ignoring the victims' plea for help?

 

[Estro Felino]

You were part of the axis of evil.
To compare the axis of evil to a country defending itself against outside aggression by a dictator, warcrimes, crimes against humanity, etc is despicable at best

Considering that Ukrainian Nationalist invoke the Nazi Stepan Bandera...this is beyond comical.

Stepan Bandera - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Are you making comedy?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If Hussein Obama had tried to keep the alliance with Russia, Russia would have never chosen NK as partner.

Note Hussein Obama rather than President Obama or simply Obama. You're so well trained.

 

[Estro Felino]

Note Hussein Obama rather than President Obama or simply Obama. You're so well trained.

Well...I would like my point about President Obama to be addressed.

 

[Estro Felino]

Note Hussein Obama rather than President Obama or simply Obama. You're so well trained.

And by the way.
The enemies of Assad destroyed Palmyra, a treasure belonging to UNESCO.
This made me understand that Assad has always been on the right side of history.

 

[Revoltingest]

One question:

No questions from you.

 

[F1fan]

As a consequence of the Donbas War.
But he just wants those 4 regions. Let's give them to him, and let's terminate this pointless war. And move on.

Then why did Putin attack from the north to take Kiev? Your claim is inconsistent with what his actions were. Plus Putin’s lies about the democratic government being Pro-Nazi was insane.

But thanks for conceding that Putin is a war monger. Can you admit he’s a war criminal too? He’s bombed schools and hospitals. And apartment buildings.

 

[Foxfyre]

I want peace. And that is achievable if the two parties find a compromise.

The winning/ losing thing is something that I outgrew in the kindergarten.

Bravo. Somehow the idea of compromise or looking for a win-win solution for both sides is somehow evil. But they don't see as evil all those bodies piling up day by day.

There has to be a better way of settling things.

 

[Stevicus]

And perhaps you should take some time learning about it before sharing uninformed platitudes.

You first.

 

[Stevicus]

Who are these armchair warriors?

Anyone in the West who insists that Ukrainians go on fighting and dying, while choosing to remain safe and sound far away from the war zone. A very easy and convenient position to take, don't you think?

Ukraine engaging in fierce resistance against the Russian aggression is the choice made by Ukraine.
The west is merely supporting them in their decision.

Then what's your role in this? Why does this issue seem so important to you that you show up in every thread where it comes up?

And such isn't the case in Russia?

I didn't say that, but aren't you the one always chiding others about "whataboutism"? Now you're doing what you criticize others for.

Having said that, when a country is attacked and its continued existence is literally threatened, then martial law comes into effect and mobilization occurs. This means that certain people will be required to take up arms. That also means that not all of those people are going to be happy about it.

Point of order: Their continued existence is not threatened, "literally" or otherwise.

Do you think my grandfather was happy to take up arms when the Nazi's invaded Belgium? He sure wasn't. He cried when he was drafter. Tough guy though. A wrestling champion actually. But he didn't want to go fight a war in the trenches. Yet he was forced to. That's how it goes in times of war.

I'm sure that no country likes being invaded, and due to their unfortunate position geographically, Belgium was caught up in the fighting.

There are also many Ukrainians who willingly enlisted voluntarily as well.

I'm not seeing massive discontent or protests or whatever from Ukrainian citizens demanding their governments to surrender to the Russian invaders.
So not sure what point you think you are making.

Yes, there were some who enlisted voluntarily at the start.

Are people even allowed to protest in Ukraine? Would their government allow any open or public opposition to the war? Considering the over-the-top pro-Ukrainian fanaticism I've seen from many in the West, my guess is that if there is opposition or discontent over the war, they can't be too loud or public about it.

Be that as it may, propaganda and misinformation is a serious business when it is being used for the purpose of justifying violations of the sovereignty of other nations, to try and justify or cover up warcrimes and crimes against humanity, to undermine democracy in other countries, etc.

It would be utterly stupid and self-destructive to turn a blind eye towards such.

Up above, you said that the West is "merely supporting them," as if it's just some kind of routine thing, but now, you're painting as practically a matter of life and death for the West, saying it would be "self-destructive" to turn a blind eye towards such. So, you clearly believe that the stakes are much higher than Ukraine repelling an invasion by the Russians, but yet, your cavalier "nope" earlier would suggest that you keep going back and forth on this point.

 

[Stevicus]

Yes. Your generalization of why people oppose Putin, which includes me, is not accurate.

Which part is "not accurate," according to you?

 

[Watchmen]

I thought this thread was about Gabbard???