Galatians 2:20

[Unveiled Artist]

What do you think we should do?
How do you think you left Jesus?

Christians should die for others as Christ died for them. They should incorporate action within their devotion because that action (not just faith) is what keeps the relationship going. It's like any relationship here, it's not a one man road.

I believe the Catholic Church holds strong scripture and Christian beliefs. By leaving the Church (not by paperwork, still deciding), I left Christianity. I do not worship Jesus and never have. I never liked the word worship--putting someone over you and everyone else. The inertia of belief robbed me of what my heart said. I cannot turn off what I believe and don't believe; I can just walk away from that which my heart isn't calling me to follow: that's how I left.

 

[Yes]

Please wait a bit before replying. I tend to look over what I write and find errors in thought. Thanks.

That's the thing... are you talking about the Catholic Church or Catholics in general. I can't speak on behalf of the Church. I can just say what the Pope wrote when He did the Catechism for the Church and the scripture it provides in relation to what is taught in the Catechism.

Catholics (as people) do that. Not everyone to the same degree. When I practiced Catholicism, I did that. My friend does it. That's generalization. Many Catholics do believe in Jesus Christ, follow Him, and obey. Just because they say they are Catholic, they get the run around--they are followers of Christ. We can put the labels aside for now.

You call a mere man 'pope'. That is wrong. You speak of the catechism. The catechism is full of false teachings that the Catholic denomination does.

Which Catholics?

No. We call priests f-athers just as I call my father, father out of respect to him as my parent. The priest will tell you himself that he is just a human and God gave him not Him a calling to help others come to Christ (human wise).

Those priests are supposed to be your brothers in Christ. Jesus tells us not to call our brothers in Christ 'father'.

(This is a really crewd example, sorry Catholics.) It's like going to therapy and you tell your therapist you want to reconcile with your brother but he wronged you to where you couldn't forgive him. She doesn't

become your brother so that you are forgiven by the therapist. She doesn't speak on behalf of your brother. No, you are going their to repent and talk about what you and your brother have done and seek consultation to where you are reconciled with yourself and, by going to your brother, reconciled to your brother as well.

When we call a priest father, it is always with a lower F; because, I was taught and I understand it to be from the Church is that the Father works through all people. Priest take up a role to help people come to Christ. They are not the Holy Spirit. They are Church elders (if you like that phrase better) and within the Catholic domination, many Catholics look up to these elders to better understand their devotion to Christ in addition to not replace of the advice they are given from Christ and from scripture.

We are ALL priests when we are saved.
We are not to call any brother in Christ 'father'.

When we bow down to an image (I wont speak for all), we bow down to who that image represents.

That is exactly what others say when they bow down in front of the statues in their religion. That is exactly what Hindis say, and pagans of all kinds.

It is simple. God says do not bow to the works of your hands.

I have two pictures of both my grandma on my mother and father side. My mother's mother passed in 96 my father's mother two months ago. When I sit in front of their picture, I am not worshiping or reflecting on their pictures, I am reflecting on who they are in relation to me. I'm reflecting on my family, my bloodline, how to get my family back together... I'm grieving the loss of my family, and so on and so forth.

In the Catholic and Orthodox denominations, they bow down to these images, and pray to the people these images represent.

Likewise in Catholicism. Statutes, images, whatever, are not worshiped. The Catholicism explicitly states in the Second (they put it in the 1st commandment) commandment that no images are to be worshiped. There is a whole section devoted to not praying to images.

Catholics bow to these images. It is a sin to do that.

When I see a Catholic pray to Jesus, I see them sit in front of Jesus statue and bow their heads. Like me and my grandmothers' pictures, they are reflecting His death and resurrection; thinking of the sins they ask God (not the statue) to be forgiven of; they reflect on His passion. They don't need a statute to reflect and be saved... that's just a memorial thing (like having a tome stone at your family's grave) that helps the reflection of those who followed Jesus as well as Jesus Himself and His Family. Nothing wrong with that.

God plainly tells us not to do that.

Unfortunately, this one I can't refute from a protestant perspective. I don't know where the intercession history came from because every culture has done it for years... having passed spirits (not dead) talk to God so that they are comfortable not just by God but by His family too. I talk with my grandmas all the time about the best way to know God. My situation and views are different than yours; but I'm sure you at least get my point?

I understand exactly what you are saying; however, it is wrong.
Jesus is the only interceder.

The only couple of things I can think of that the Church does differently than what scripture says is the new things they put in such as Mary being sinless and something else, I gotta think. The Eucharist is a fuzzy one because Roman Catholics concrecate (bless) Jesus blood/body every day three or four times a week. Other Catholic Churches feel that the bread/wine are blessed in themselves and do not need repeated consecration.

No one turns bread and wine into the real body and blood of Jesus.

There is a scripture in the gospel that says why do people argue about whether people honor the sabath on this date and why people say its another date. When worshiping God in itself is what is needed; the dates (and other examples scripture gave) is not important as much as the intent and who they are giving the thanks to. I will find that scripture. It's at the end of one of the books.

Do you know who Aaron's sons are and why they died? Believe me, good intentions are no excuse and cannot be added to God's Truth.

Anyway, I would say that is the same with communion. Many churches celebrate communion in different ways. The only way it can be wrong to you is if you truly believe that the Priest is consecrating the bread/wine... if you do not believe it, how is against scripture when its false?

God's Truth matters.

Every Christian is on his or her own level of walk with God. It is between God and that Christian and no one else. To tell any Catholic they are believing in and practicing the wrong thing is assuming you know their heart. You do not. It's insulting to talk about the Church; but, I have my issues to with that. However, talking about people is a different story.

You cannot shame me for telling you the Truth.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You call a mere man 'pope'. That is wrong. You speak of the catechism. The catechism is full of false teachings that the Catholic denomination does.

I call him pope because that's his title. There's nothing mysterious about the title pope.

Unfortunately, I cannot argue whether the Catholic teachings are false or not. I just know what I read in scripture and my experiences in relation to scripture and the Church.


Those priests are supposed to be your brothers in Christ. Jesus tells us not to call our brothers in Christ 'father'.

We are not to call any brother in Christ 'father'.

That would mean I cannot call my dad father. It's a word. God does not want us to put anyone over himself. Father means a male parent. If we put someone over ourselves and call him our parent (our Father) AND we place that person over God, that is what God is talking about.

In the Church, father means elder. In my house, father means parent. In Christianity, Father means the Creator. English is silly with its words because one word can mean many things depending on how it is used. We do not call priests God--so they are not our Father.

We are ALL priests when we are saved.

Unlike other priests, the priests at a Church takes a vocation to be an elder in the Church. Which means he has more responsibilities in helping people come to Christ. The role is different than layman.

Also, a priest did tell me that Christians are all priests. We just have different ways of fulfilling our callings.


That is exactly what others say when they bow down in front of the statues in their religion. That is exactly what Hindis say, and pagans of all kinds.

I don't know about Hindu. Unlike Catholic, many Pagans do worship in symbolism. They can't compare because in Catholicism, everything is literal. (Unlike baptist, where communion is symbol) Many Pagans believe in correspondences, color codes, things like.

If you bow your head in prayer (in general), you are going to face something... a wall, a chair... a table, whatever. You are not worshiping it.. that's what you're facing. Likewise, if I'm going to my grandmother's grave yard and see her tomb stone, I say my respects, leave her flowers, but I'm not doing it to the tomb stone with her name on it.

It is simple. God says do not bow to the works of your hands.

That's basically saying half the world can't give respect to their parents and elders because they are not allowed to bow. Everyone is different.. if you take our culture away from us, our relationship with God is void.

In the Catholic and Orthodox denominations, they bow down to these images, and pray to the people these images represent.

Catholics bow to these images. It is a sin to do that.

God plainly tells us not to do that.


This seems to bother you a lot. Bow down in front of a wheel chair and pray the Lord's Prayer... ask a friend to bow in front of the statute of Mary and say the same prayer. Same intent, same prayer, to the same God.... the only thing that is different is what you're facing.


I understand exactly what you are saying; however, it is wrong.
Jesus is the only interceder.

I can't speak for all Catholics. I know I never asked anyone to be my Savior. Many of us talk to Jesus' friends and family as we do in this life in the flesh. God said don't talk to the dead. No one dies. So, I don't see how that is wrong; just different.

No one turns bread and wine into the real body and blood of Jesus.

Depends on what you mean as real? Are you meaning his flesh and bones? If yes, of course not. If you have taken communion seriously at any Church you will understand the importance of Communion. We can dance around concepts, words, etc... it still is bread and wine (Catholic's do see bread and wine). Like I explained above, the mana is the bread from heaven and the wine is the blood that washes one clean from sin (Jesus). It is translated through the Lord's Supper "this is my body and this is my blood." I don't know another way to explain it. It took me a long while because many of my family are protestant and dislike Catholics as well. Don't understand.

Do you know who Aaron's sons are and why they died? Believe me, good intentions are no excuse and cannot be added to God's Truth.

What are you reffering to?

God's Truth matters.

It is always in the opinion of those who believe in Him. What you believe is not truth for all people.

You cannot shame me for telling you the Truth.

You're telling me what you believe. The ball doesn't just go into a Christian's court just because he or she has the majority vote. Life doesn't work that way. We can share our beliefs with each other in hopes that we will at least understand each other. However, I personally would never say what I believe is true for you. That's imposing my belief on yours and that;s just, well wrong.

 

[AllanV]

It is difficult to put a finger on what it is.But the scripture says with boldness to present your body as a living sacrifice.

Would it be safe to say that because we are living sacrifice is one who gives his or her life to God; and, when we do not do that for God and His Son--the Body of Christ--we are not following scripture? We die to others as Christ did for all, type of thing?

When I hear Christians speak about believing in Christ, I really don't hear them doing anything for Him and for His Son.

There is a supernatural aspect to this and we are being built as a habitat for the Spirit of God. God is only able to energize the nature of Jesus with the same mind he thinks from.
The idea is to find the perfect nature.
This nature is more gentle than can be imagined therefore it requires a step by step approach. As a person gets closer the way forward is revealed.
This may not be for you to do but there is a need to be in a group that is in the same spirit.
The body of Christ with correct teaching fits together in all the gifts. It is not about Bible intellect but the method that needs to be acted on.
All imperfect impure nature traits are washed off.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

So dying in Christ is crucifying yourself In Him.

The word συνεσταυρωμαι ("I have been crucified together with") from sustauro (but found only in the passive) generally meant to be crucified along with others. Figuratively, as in your quote, it doesn't mean dying. The tense/aspect of the verb implies that Paul is saying "I have been crucified in a way that is relevant now" (compare the English "I climbed the tree and was at the top" and "I have climbed the tree and am at the top"; the latter describes a completed action/state with relevance to the current moment). More importantly, just as Christ (thought Paul) had through his sacrifice and crucifixion changed the cosmos, so too are all those who would join him able to live in this new kingdom of God. The importance of "crucified with" is clearer in Greek because it is attached to the word "crucified" rather than being a preposition like "with" (or, in Greek, pros, meta, etc., depending upon context). Put differently, in the Greek text there is no word "with" such that one can understand the line to mean that Paul even metaphorically conceives of his crucifixion as an event/state change that has any meaning by itself. Only when understood as being part of the crucifixion of Christ can we make sense of Paul's words.

It does not mean you let Him save you and you follow Him and try not to sin. That's not dying in Christ; that's letting Him do the dirty work. In this scripture it says you must die in Him so you can live.

Actually, in order to "live with God" and to "have been crucified with Christ", it is of central importance (according to Paul) is faith in Christ. The contrast, in context, concerns the importance of the torah (understood in the broadest sense of the YHWH's law, not the books of Moses or any literature). Paul is arguing that one must "die to the law" (we might say "be dead to the law") in order to live "with God". In order to do this, to be a part of the Kingdom of God, one must have faith and life through Christ not the law.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I actually kinda understood only half of what you said. The first half went over my head.

Actually, in order to "live with God" and to "have been crucified with Christ", it is of central importance (according to Paul) is faith in Christ. Paul is arguing that one must "die to the law" (we might say "be dead to the law") in order to live "with God".

I think this answered it. I was thinking when you have faith in Christ, you have to die to yourself (wasn't think about the Law) so that you can reunite in Christ thereby with God. I guess if you see it as dying to the law or dying to self, regardless you're reuniting with Christ. Guess it wouldn't matter how you see it then?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Guess it wouldn't matter how you see it then?

It wouldn't matter how I see it, as I'm not a Christian (I'm agnostic). I was merely attempting (and failing) to try to explain what Paul meant. As to how you or anybody interprets Paul's words from a personal, religious perspective, there I can't even attempt to help. I would say, though, that especially with the letters (and especially with Paul's letters) it is vital to understand the context (not so much the historical context, i.e., who he was writing to and at what time and for precisely what reasons). Paul's letters are arranged (if somewhat haphazardly) by topic. If you've ever read a commentary on the bible or on one or more books of the bible, you may know that often enough the commentator(s) will address several lines at once, and also frequently introduce entire sections with comments. This is because it is so easy to focus on a particular line or two in isolation and wonder what it means but very hard to do so and understand it.

From a historical perspective, Paul's letter here is addressing an issue of contention among the earliest Christians: whether gentiles who converted had to live according to Jewish law. Paul argues that it is through Jesus' crucifixion, and through faith in the risen Christ, not Jewish custom/practice/law, that one can enter Heaven/live eternally.

 

[AllanV]

It is very simple. When we talk a certain energy is in the way the words are delivered the way they sound. We could be angry or we don't like the person or we do. And the way we are talked to affect us into a response.
It is a matter of cleaning that up but not in own power because there will be failure. It is a good start though.
If the correct path is taken it is by the Spirit on the inside and then that is revealed on the outside.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand what you mean. I'm not Christian myself; but, that if I were still studying the Bible like I used to etc I'd look more into that. Was thinking of going into theology. I'm kind of lagging behind, though.

It wouldn't matter how I see it, as I'm not a Christian (I'm agnostic). I was merely attempting (and failing) to try to explain what Paul meant. As to how you or anybody interprets Paul's words from a personal, religious perspective, there I can't even attempt to help. I would say, though, that especially with the letters (and especially with Paul's letters) it is vital to understand the context (not so much the historical context, i.e., who he was writing to and at what time and for precisely what reasons). Paul's letters are arranged (if somewhat haphazardly) by topic. If you've ever read a commentary on the bible or on one or more books of the bible, you may know that often enough the commentator(s) will address several lines at once, and also frequently introduce entire sections with comments. This is because it is so easy to focus on a particular line or two in isolation and wonder what it means but very hard to do so and understand it.

From a historical perspective, Paul's letter here is addressing an issue of contention among the earliest Christians: whether gentiles who converted had to live according to Jewish law. Paul argues that it is through Jesus' crucifixion, and through faith in the risen Christ, not Jewish custom/practice/law, that one can enter Heaven/live eternally.

 

[Yes]

Please wait a couple minutes before replying. I'm replying to this so you don't have to do another reply to the post I edited.

I don't worship those things. I know many Catholics my friend included who do not worship those things.

The Catechism (Catholicism's resource book) does not advocate praying to statues. It's against the second testament (which you will read in that book, its under the first)

God says NOT TO BOW TO THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS.
The Catholics bow to the works of their hands.

Leviticus 26:1 "'You must not make for yourselves idols, so you must not set up for yourselves a carved image or a pillar, and you must not place a sculpted stone in your land to bow down before it, for I am the LORD your God.

Did you read that? Do not set up a CARVED IMAGE...you must NOT place a SCULPTED STONE...and BOW DOWN BEFORE IT.

A statue is a carved image and a sculpted stone. The Orthodox use pictures, which is just as bad.

Yes, many Catholics, when they do that, they bow down (prostrate their bodies) to the Cross (representation of Jesus--not Jesus Himself) and the alter (which is the Lord's Table). It's not

just religious it's cultural. Each religious custom/culture has their ways of respect. I went to Mass one time and a lady came to the Eucharist.. she didn't genuflect, she bowed by prostrating her body at half degree. Many people from Asian countries show sign of respect or veneration by bowing... I read the further one bows the deeper the respect. The Catholic Church doesn't teach to bow in that manner. However, given its a custom to give respect to the person you give your life to, we do things that are culturally appropriate to our family and how we were raised.

In other words, when we bow, it's to show respect to the person we are worshiping not a statue or alter. That's like my shaking hands with my boss and dipping my head and she looks to me as if I'm worshiping her when she instead knows that that's America's what of proper respect between client and employer in some cases. Military practices are another good example.

The following paragraph highlighted in red is part of an article that explains further the acts Catholics perform:

In both East and West the reverence we pay to images has crystallized into formal ritual. In the Latin Rite the priest is commanded to bow to the cross in the sacristy before he leaves it to say Mass (“Ritus servandus” in the Missal, II, 1); he bows again profoundly “to the altar or the image of the crucifix placed upon it” when he begins Mass (ibid., II, 2); he begins incensing the altar by incensing the crucifix on it (IV, 4), and bows to it every time he passes it (ibid.); he also incenses any relics or images of saints that may be on the altar (ibid.). In the same way many such commands throughout our rubrics show that always a reverence is to be paid to the cross or images of saints whenever we approach them. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm


Read this passage:


2 Kings 18:1 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother’s name was Abijah daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)

Now, read iwhat I highlighted in red, it is from a site about the Catholics and their incensing.

Catholics symbolism and manner of incensing:
Incense, with its sweet-smelling perfume and high-ascending smoke, is typical of the good Christian’s prayer, which, enkindled in the heart by the fire of God’s love and exhaling the odour of Christ, rises up a pleasing offering in His sight (cf. Amalarius, “De eccles. officiis” in P.L., CV). Incensing is the act of imparting the odour of incense. The censer is held in the right hand at the height of the breast, and grasped by the chain near the cover; the left hand, holding the top of the chain, is placed on the breast. The censer is then raised upwards to the height of the eyes, given an outward motion and slightly ascending towards the object to be incensed, and at once brought back to the starting point. This constitutes a single swing. For a double swing the outward motion should be repeated, the second movement being more pronounced than the first. The dignity of the person or thing will determine whether the swing is to be single or double, and also whether one swing or more are to be given. The incense-boat is the vessel containing the incense for immediate use. It is so called from its shape. It is generally carried by the thurifer in the disengaged hand. new advent.org/cathen/07716a.htm



The Israelites burned incense to the bronze snake/the Catholic priest burns incense to the crucifix, and any relics or images of saints. If the bronze snake that Moses had made was broke into pieces because the Israelites had been burning incense to it (see 2 Kings 18:1-4), then why is it okay for the Catholic priests to bow to and incense the crucifix?

Please answer my question.

This is how I see it and how I read it from the Church. I spoke with a priest about it as well.

When we take the Eucharist, we are not seeing Christ (His fingers, toes, hair on His head)

Don't get me wrong, maybe people do? I don't know why any Catholic has a problem with this but its a symbolization and representation of Christ who is literally (by spirit) in the bread/wine.

Good example: Remember in the movie Ten Commandments (cant remember the Book now) where Mana came from the sky to heal the ills of the Israelite stomachs? Remember also the blood that was slain in temples in Leviticus meaning the blood was a sacrifice for the sins of the tribes?

The mana is the bread and the blood is the wine. So when a Catholic eats of the bread, He is eating nourishment given from God. (Which is Christ). When he drinks the wine, he is washed clean by the blood which Jesus says is His body. It is profound because when Jesus says "do this in memory of me" he is telling people that His body (His Spirit) is nourishment to your souls; and to whomever takes of this bread/wine (what I give you in my hands-myself) will have me in Spirit.

Look beyond the literal bread and wine. That will literally trip you up. It's spiritual. To me, literal is if you see Jesus' fingers and toes. I confirmed that Catholics don't see the Eucharist that way, neither do I. Please don't say all Catholics believe what you feel the Church believes.

No one is changing the bread and wine into the real flesh and blood of Jesus.
We eat Jesus' flesh by obeying his words.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Woah! Hold a second. Let me read this clearly and reply in smaller caps. Just a second

God says NOT TO BOW TO THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS.
The Catholics bow to the works of their hands.

Leviticus 26:1 "'You must not make for yourselves idols, so you must not set up for yourselves a carved image or a pillar, and you must not place a sculpted stone in your land to bow down before it, for I am the LORD your God.

Did you read that? Do not set up a CARVED IMAGE...you must NOT place a SCULPTED STONE...and BOW DOWN BEFORE IT.

A statue is a carved image and a sculpted stone. The Orthodox use pictures, which is just as bad.




The following paragraph highlighted in red is part of an article that explains further the acts Catholics perform:

In both East and West the reverence we pay to images has crystallized into formal ritual. In the Latin Rite the priest is commanded to bow to the cross in the sacristy before he leaves it to say Mass (“Ritus servandus” in the Missal, II, 1); he bows again profoundly “to the altar or the image of the crucifix placed upon it” when he begins Mass (ibid., II, 2); he begins incensing the altar by incensing the crucifix on it (IV, 4), and bows to it every time he passes it (ibid.); he also incenses any relics or images of saints that may be on the altar (ibid.). In the same way many such commands throughout our rubrics show that always a reverence is to be paid to the cross or images of saints whenever we approach them. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm


Read this passage:


2 Kings 18:1 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother’s name was Abijah daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)

Now, read iwhat I highlighted in red, it is from a site about the Catholics and their incensing.

Catholics symbolism and manner of incensing:
Incense, with its sweet-smelling perfume and high-ascending smoke, is typical of the good Christian’s prayer, which, enkindled in the heart by the fire of God’s love and exhaling the odour of Christ, rises up a pleasing offering in His sight (cf. Amalarius, “De eccles. officiis” in P.L., CV). Incensing is the act of imparting the odour of incense. The censer is held in the right hand at the height of the breast, and grasped by the chain near the cover; the left hand, holding the top of the chain, is placed on the breast. The censer is then raised upwards to the height of the eyes, given an outward motion and slightly ascending towards the object to be incensed, and at once brought back to the starting point. This constitutes a single swing. For a double swing the outward motion should be repeated, the second movement being more pronounced than the first. The dignity of the person or thing will determine whether the swing is to be single or double, and also whether one swing or more are to be given. The incense-boat is the vessel containing the incense for immediate use. It is so called from its shape. It is generally carried by the thurifer in the disengaged hand. new advent.org/cathen/07716a.htm



The Israelites burned incense to the bronze snake/the Catholic priest burns incense to the crucifix, and any relics or images of saints. If the bronze snake that Moses had made was broke into pieces because the Israelites had been burning incense to it (see 2 Kings 18:1-4), then why is it okay for the Catholic priests to bow to and incense the crucifix?

Please answer my question.




No one is changing the bread and wine into the real flesh and blood of Jesus.
We eat Jesus' flesh by obeying his words.

 

[Yes]

Christians should die for others as Christ died for them. They should incorporate action within their devotion because that action (not just faith) is what keeps the relationship going. It's like any relationship here, it's not a one man road.

What do you mean Christians should die for others?

I believe the Catholic Church holds strong scripture and Christian beliefs.

The Catholic denomination goes against God's word.

By leaving the Church (not by paperwork, still deciding), I left Christianity. I do not worship Jesus and never have. I never liked the word worship--putting someone over you and everyone else. The inertia of belief robbed me of what my heart said. I cannot turn off what I believe and don't believe; I can just walk away from that which my heart isn't calling me to follow: that's how I left.

If you never put Jesus over you and everyone else, then I how is it you think you were a Christian?

Matthew 10:37
"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

 

[Yes]

I call him pope because that's his title. There's nothing mysterious about the title pope.

Jesus said not to call any one on earth 'father' and that they are all brothers.
Catholics have a Pope. Pope means 'father'. Not only do the Catholic parishioners call the Pope and priests ‘father,’ the Pope and priests call each other 'father'. Jesus said not to call any one on earth 'father' and that they are all brothers. There are many other false doctrines in the Catholic religion, but starting from the top of their religion--- the Pope, that should be enough to stop there with that religion.
The Catholics even call their Pope "Holy Father". That is the name Jesus called God (John 17:11), this is a name reserved for God. It should make you cringe when you hear the Catholic Pope referred to as Holy Father.

That would mean I cannot call my dad father. It's a word.

Jesus was speaking to his disciples about not calling any of their BROTHERS in Christ 'father'. Jesus was speaking of spiritual things. Jesus was not speaking about not calling your parent 'father'.

This seems to bother you a lot. Bow down in front of a wheel chair and pray the Lord's Prayer... ask a friend to bow in front of the statute of Mary and say the same prayer. Same intent, same prayer, to the same God.... the only thing that is different is what you're facing.

Obeying God matters!

What are you reffering to?

Do you know who Aaron's sons are and why they died? Believe me, good intentions are no excuse and cannot be added to God's Truth.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Since there is different font patterns I figure I change the color instead.

God says NOT TO BOW TO THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS.
The Catholics bow to the works of their hands.

If you and I bow before a refigerator and prayed the Lord's Prayer would it make it less effective if we prayed in front of a statue so happen to be shaped like Jesus? Or going to the Smithsonian and praying towards the fishes? Who am I praying to--the refrig, the statue, the fishes? None... I'm praying to God.

When God said the second commandment (just like in the movie the ten commandments) He said it so that His people would not put statues, people, and so forth above Him--worshiping It or others above Himself. Many Catholics do not worship anyone or anything THING above God; only God/Christ Himself. No matter where they face, they are praying to God.

Also, the catechism of the Catholic Church states profoundly not to pray to statues and images made to represent God.

It's against the Church; it's against scripture. I can't speak for the people though. Everyone differs.

Leviticus 26:1 "'You must not make for yourselves idols, so you must not set up for yourselves a carved image or a pillar, and you must not place a sculpted stone in your land to bow down before it, for I am the LORD your God.

Did you read that? Do not set up a CARVED IMAGE...you must NOT place a SCULPTED STONE...and BOW DOWN BEFORE IT.

Please tone down your language.

A statue is a carved image and a sculpted stone. The Orthodox use pictures, which is just as bad.

It's not about the statues. If the person that is praying is praying to the statue, it's against scripture. If they are praying to God in front of a statue, it is not.


The following paragraph highlighted in red is part of an article that explains further the acts Catholics perform:

Yes, they do this everyday at every Mass. It's not protestant.. so that's just something every other protestant has to suck up. It's different that does not mean it's against scripture.

On that note, yes, they come in and bow first. They do believe that Jesus Christ is in the tabernacle as in the OT and bowing is showing respect to the sacrament within it. The act of bowing is a sign of respect. It's not worship.

We do the sign of the Cross to remind ourselves that when we do the sign together (say like Baptist Churches many hold their hands up together) we are saying we believe "In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen." You are looking at actions and things. A Catholic is not looking at the actions/things but what these actions and things represent to them... represent not are. Two different things.

Yes, after the scripture is read from the Old and One from the New there is singing involved. The Priest holds the Gospel up and walks to the pulpit. During the Mass, he says "let God be with you" and we say equally "as with you or as with your spirit". To me this is saying, I am no greater than the Priest and he is no greater than me. (He told me this personally). Why do others see otherwise?

After speaking the literary, yes, he goes to the altar and genuflects and kisses it. That's another tradition. When you come around the table to eat with your family, you ask God to bless your food and your family before you eat. Since in the Church, that is where communion is held, just like kissing is personal between person to person, the tradition is to kiss the altar with which will as I continue be where the bread/wine would be.

The whole time, mind you, He is getting blessings from God; He is not doing things on his own accord.

Then they consecrate (or bless) the bread/wine to be Jesus Christ. I can debate this both ways for and against. So I won't say anything other than I understand how it is true.

Read this passage:

2 Kings 18:1 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother’s name was Abijah daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)

Now, read iwhat I highlighted in red, it is from a site about the Catholics and their incensing.

Is it the incense that causes the problem, the action of lighting the incense, or is it because they are doing it in a religious setting that bothers you?

The Israelites burned incense to the bronze snake/the Catholic priest burns incense to the crucifix, and any relics or images of saints. If the bronze snake that Moses had made was broke into pieces because the Israelites had been burning incense to it (see 2 Kings 18:1-4), then why is it okay for the Catholic priests to bow to and incense the crucifix?

That's a weird comparison. I'm thinking it's part of Roman culture. It's part of tradition with which protestant Churches do not have. I see nothing wrong with lighting incense to a crucifix. The incense isn't a "magical thing" where Catholics get the "wiff" of the Christ in them. That's silly. Stop looking at outside appearances. Actually talk to these people, get to know them, the priest to, and see that they do believe and love Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Stop looking at how they devote themselves to Christ (like I said the NT said why look at one person who worships on this date and one worships on another) but who they are devoted to--Christ.

Please answer my question.

Which one?

No one is changing the bread and wine into the real flesh and blood of Jesus.

Depends. Do you think they are changing the bread/wine to be Jesus' hair, hands, and toes? Most Catholics will agree with you if that be the case. Are you saying that communion has no real significance beyond symbolism? Which is highly cherished in many protestant Churches? Catholic Churches are no exception.

The ONLY thing I can think of that would be a problem was the consecration itself. The act of changing bread/wine to blood/body of Christ. I agree with other Catholic Churches that the bread/wine has been consecrated the moment Jesus said "this is my blood/body." I see the Roman Catholic view as the priest blessing the bread and wine. He doesn't get the blessings from Himself, but from God.

We eat Jesus' flesh by obeying his words. Catholics believe the exact same thing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What do you mean Christians should die for others?

If the position arises that we must die for another person we do not know to save their life regardless of age, we should be able to do so... since Jesus died for us in all ages and whatever sins we have, we should be able to do so for others.

The highest form of sacrifice is dying for another.

The Catholic denomination goes against God's word.

That's kinda hard to argue. It depends on what Catholic denomination you're talking about. I have some things I'm uncomfortable with the Roman Catholic Church--but the same old "we worship statues; we worship Mary; we worship dead people" stuff like that gets on my nerves. I read a lot of history that helps with puting the ROman Catholic Church into a non biblical perspective.. these arguements really do nothing but state false things about Churches like the one I was in who do not worship statues, revere Mary over Christ, replace God for the Pope, and a whole bunch of other, /coughs/ mess I can think of that insults me and people who believe in God and those devoted to the Church.

If you never put Jesus over you and everyone else, then I how is it you think you were a Christian?

The Catholic Church believes that when you are baptized, you are baptized in Christ. Therefore, they do not believe you can loose your salvation. Instead, they feel you may fall away but Christ will always been there if you decide to return. They don't throw you out the door and give you your bag and tell you to live on your own. So, technically, I am a Christian because I do believe in what the Church says in that regards. In protestant terms, I am not because I do not follow scripture anymore and I am not a "only scripture" person.

Matthew 10:37
"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

I read that before. I never liked that verse. I practiced Nichiren Buddhism for awhile and Nichiren quotes the historical Buddha who says in summary, "why are you giving offerings to the Buddha. Surely you know your mother deserves more offering than I (the Buddha) because she is the one who bore you".

Christ should be a foundation to your family and social roots not in replace of it.

I mean, gosh, I hear people disown their own family and friends in the name of their faith. Yet they will die for their child. Those two do not make sense. If you are willing to die for your child, why aren't you willing to die (turn away) from God to take care of your family and friends--that is the true act of serving God when you can put your Ego aside and WITH God be one with your family as well.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Jesus said not to call any one on earth 'father' and that they are all brothers. Catholics have a Pope. Pope means 'father'. Not only do the Catholic parishioners call the Pope and priests ‘father,’ the Pope and priests call each other 'father'. Jesus said not to call any one on earth 'father' and that they are all brothers. There are many other false doctrines in the Catholic religion, but starting from the top of their religion--- the Pope, that should be enough to stop there with that religion.

The Catholics even call their Pope "Holy Father". That is the name Jesus called God (John 17:11), this is a name reserved for God. It should make you cringe when you hear the Catholic Pope referred to as Holy Father.

Since I refer to my parent as father, I don't see that's bad at all. I don't have too much opinions about the Pope, really. I don't care for the term Holy Father--so I see your point. When I personally call a priest father, I'm not talking to him as if he is God. It's like using Sargent instead of Sargent Smith or Mr. Smith. Sometimes I use the priest's full name; they are human, and have no problems with that. I don't spit at their feet since I respect them as an Elder of the Church. That's what many protestants do, spit at their feet with their words by saying they don't love Christ because people choose to call them father.. when neither of them identify father as the priest being God. So it's like the protestant is arguing with himself.

What bothers me is the kissing of the ring. That's completely a culture difference. Roman vs. American. A lot of people bow to me when walking in the halls of my apt because their culture tells them how to respect others who respect them. I bow back not because I am worshiping them, its because they are three times my age and I am showing them respect as an Elder. Priests are Elders in the Church; and we respect those elders because they have taken the vocation to serve the Lord. If a Christian can do this for an elder of His why not for his Savior?

Jesus was speaking to his disciples about not calling any of their BROTHERS in Christ 'father'. Jesus was speaking of spiritual things. Jesus was not speaking about not calling your parent 'father'.

(Thank gosh for the "save draft") I don't see the priest any different than my Father in respects that neither of them are The Father. I don't see why non-Christians don't see that; Catholics do.

Obeying God matters! Catholics belief that too.

Do you know who Aaron's sons are and why they died? Believe me, good intentions are no excuse and cannot be added to God's Truth

I actually don't remember. If the people in Moses' day were building a calf and had no intentions of it being a replacement for God.. maybe they just like gold, would God strike them dead? God strikes them dead because they had the intention and went with it to make the golden calf into a god in itself; God was made, and that's what happened. If intent didn't matter, why are we so concerned with what other people believe. Their intent/belief/faith tells to protestants whether one is saved--it is seriously important in how one worships God and interacts with others.

 

[Kolibri]

Galatians 2:20
"I am nailed to the stake along with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who is living in union with me. Indeed, the life that I no live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and handed himself over for me."

One of the principle things we can learn from this verse is that even though Christ died before Paul converted, he took the ransom personally.
Re-read, please, the same passage with emphasis on the word me.

Or we can break it down further.
"I am nailed to the stake along with Christ"
"For we know that our old personality was nailed to the stake along with him in order for our sinful body to be made powerless, so that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin." - Romans 6:6

"It is no longer I who live"
"Since Christ suffered in the flesh, you too arm yourselves with the same disposition; because the person who has suffered in the flesh has desisted from sins, so that he may live the remainder of his time in the flesh, no more for the desires of men, but for God's will." - 1 Peter 4:1,2

"I live by faith in the Son of God"
"And he died for all so that those who live should live no longer for themselves; but for him who died for them and was raised up." - 2 Corinthians 5:15

"the Son of God...handed himself over for me"
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all - this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time." - 1 Timothy 2:5,6

We could say that not only did Paul take the ransom personally, but that he also learned the principle of how to serve without amassing more regrets.

 

[Kolibri]

Galatians 2:21
"I do not reject (or "shove aside.") the undeserved kindness of God, for if righteousness is through law, Christ actually died for nothing."

"the undeserved kindness of God"
"Because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ." - John 1:17

"if righteousness is through law, Christ actually died for nothing."
"Is the Law, therefore, against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, righteousness would actually have been by means of law." - Galatians 3:21

"If, then, perfection was attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for it was a feature of the Law that was given to the people), what further need would there be for another priest to arise who is said to be in the manner of Mel-chiz'e-dek and not in the manner of Aaron?" - Hebrews 7:11

I find this follow-up verse to add emphatic force to Ga 2:20.
It makes it clear that we can never earn salvation, even though we still provide all the effort implied in verse 20.
Our life hinges exclusively on a kindness that we did not deserve - the Christ's human life provided as a payment to cover our sins.

 

[Yes]

If the position arises that we must die for another person we do not know to save their life regardless of age, we should be able to do so... since Jesus died for us in all ages and whatever sins we have, we should be able to do so for others.

The Bible does not tell us to die for others.

The highest form of sacrifice is dying for another.

We are to die to the sins of the world and live our lives through Christ, which means we are to live obeying Jesus.

That's kinda hard to argue. It depends on what Catholic denomination you're talking about. I have some things I'm uncomfortable with the Roman Catholic Church--but the same old "we worship statues; we worship Mary; we worship dead people" stuff like that gets on my nerves. I read a lot of history that helps with puting the ROman Catholic Church into a non biblical perspective.. these arguements really do nothing but state false things about Churches like the one I was in who do not worship statues, revere Mary over Christ, replace God for the Pope, and a whole bunch of other, /coughs/ mess I can think of that insults me and people who believe in God and those devoted to the Church.

Please stick to what I am saying. I gave you information from the Catholic denomination that says they bow to statues. You even admitted you bow to the crucifix and other statues at the altar of the Catholic church before being seated. Catholics do wrong by calling their brothers 'father'. Catholics do us Mary and other "Saints" as interceders.

The Catholic Church believes that when you are baptized, you are baptized in Christ. Therefore, they do not believe you can loose your salvation. Instead, they feel you may fall away but Christ will always been there if you decide to return. They don't throw you out the door and give you your bag and tell you to live on your own. So, technically, I am a Christian because I do believe in what the Church says in that regards. In protestant terms, I am not because I do not follow scripture anymore and I am not a "only scripture" person.

When did you follow scripture? You stated that you never put Jesus over you.

I read that before. I never liked that verse. I practiced Nichiren Buddhism for awhile and Nichiren quotes the historical Buddha who says in summary, "why are you giving offerings to the Buddha. Surely you know your mother deserves more offering than I (the Buddha) because she is the one who bore you".

How can you say you are a Christian, or was a Christian when you put the words of Buddha before Jesus?

Christ should be a foundation to your family and social roots not in replace of it.

I mean, gosh, I hear people disown their own family and friends in the name of their faith. Yet they will die for their child. Those two do not make sense. If you are willing to die for your child, why aren't you willing to die (turn away) from God to take care of your family and friends--that is the true act of serving God when you can put your Ego aside and WITH God be one with your family as well.

You do not understand because you do not obey Jesus.

Jesus says he reveals himself to those who obey.

We get understanding after we obey. I have many scriptures that tells us that.

 

[Yes]

Since there is different font patterns I figure I change the color instead.

If you and I bow before a refigerator and prayed the Lord's Prayer would it make it less effective if we prayed in front of a statue so happen to be shaped like Jesus? Or going to the Smithsonian and praying towards the fishes? Who am I praying to--the refrig, the statue, the fishes? None... I'm praying to God.

Of course, it makes a difference. You are doing what God hates.

When God said the second commandment (just like in the movie the ten commandments) He said it so that His people would not put statues, people, and so forth above Him--worshiping It or others above H[imself. Many Catholics do not worship anyone or anything THING above God; only God/Christ Himself. No matter where they face, they are praying to God.

God says do not bow before them. You and all Catholics bow before statues.

Also, the catechism of the Catholic Church states profoundly not to pray to statues and images made to represent God.

It's against the Church; it's against scripture. I can't speak for the people though. Everyone differs.

Why are you running away from the truth? Don't bow down before statues.

Please tone down your language.

Please don't force your false perceptions on me.

Yes, they do this everyday at every Mass. It's not protestant.. so that's just something every other protestant has to suck up. It's different that does not mean it's against scripture.

I am not a Protestant, and I do not accept false doctrines, I expose them. I do not have to suck up your false teachings, ever.

On that note, yes, they come in and bow first. They do believe that Jesus Christ is in the tabernacle as in the OT and bowing is showing respect to the sacrament within it. The act of bowing is a sign of respect. It's not worship.

You contradict yourself, and , what don't you get about don't bow to statues?

We do the sign of the Cross to remind ourselves that when we do the sign together (say like Baptist Churches many hold their hands up together) we are saying we believe "In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen." You are looking at actions and things. A Catholic is not looking at the actions/things but what these actions and things represent to them... represent not are. Two different things.

I am not Baptist, and making the sign of the cross is strange fire.

Yes, after the scripture is read from the Old and One from the New there is singing involved. The Priest holds the Gospel up and walks to the pulpit. During the Mass, he says "let God be with you" and we say equally "as with you or as with your spirit". To me this is saying, I am no greater than the Priest and he is no greater than me. (He told me this personally). Why do others see otherwise?

It is plain and simple, do not call your brothers in Christ 'father'.

Is it the incense that causes the problem, the action of lighting the incense, or is it because they are doing it in a religious setting that bothers you?

What don't you get about don't do it?

Depends. Do you think they are changing the bread/wine to be Jesus' hair, hands, and toes? Most Catholics will agree with you if that be the case. Are you saying that communion has no real significance beyond symbolism? Which is highly cherished in many protestant Churches? Catholic Churches are no exception.

The ONLY thing I can think of that would be a problem was the consecration itself. The act of changing bread/wine to blood/body of Christ. I agree with other Catholic Churches that the bread/wine has been consecrated the moment Jesus said "this is my blood/body." I see the Roman Catholic view as the priest blessing the bread and wine. He doesn't get the blessings from Himself, but from God.

No one is changing the bread and wine into the real flesh and blood of Jesus.

We eat Jesus' flesh by obeying his words. Catholics believe the exact same thing.

No, they do not.
By the way, it is very hard to reply to your posts. It slows down my computer. Can you quote the way we are supposed to ?