Galatians 3:13

[Buddha Dharma]

@Grandliseur you don't find Paul's claim to have been a Pharisee odd, since his rhetoric is thoroughly Greek in style, and he never recounts anything Gamaliel taught him? His begging the question kind of argumentation we find all over Romans is thoroughly Greek. It's the argumentation style we find all over Plato, and such.

It is rather odd to me anyway that Paul would never mention one thing from Gamaliel the Great, when we have it from the Mishna that: a good student is like a stone cistern that loses not a drop of the master's teaching...

 

[Faithofchristian]

Presumably the Mosaic Law, as Christians in this thread keep telling me I am correct to infer. Look, don't try to gaslight me, just respond to my questions.

I've read the Bible and possess comprehension skills- believe that or not...

Yes the bible takes comprehension skills, you are right about..

No the Mosaic law, is not the curse of the law.
The curse of the law, is the law of Circumcision.
When people circumcised themselves, this became an outward showing of their faith in God.
This is not what circumcision was to be about.
But of our hearts in faith in God.

You see Abraham first had faith in God in his heart.
Then God had Abraham to circumcised himself for his faith.
But as it was, people started to put more faith in the works of circumcision than they did in their hearts to God.
That now the works of circumcision became a curse.
That now if people put more faith in the works of Circumcision then they are to keep the whole law of circumcision.

But as for me, my faith is in God, As was Abraham's faith in God.

 

[Grandliseur]

Had you read Acts 23:6--"But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren,
I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question"

Therefore Paul states himself as a Pharisee and his father as a Pharisee.

It seems that Paul was previously a tent-maker by trade. The chance that he learned this trade from his father is great:

Acts 18:2 . . .
he came unto them, 3 and, because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought, for they were tent-makers by their trade.​

Of course, as it also says, the father was a pharisee.

Here are scriptures related to his origin:

Acts 22:28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this citizenship. And Paul said, But I am a Roman born.
Philippians 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Acts 22:
2 And when they heard that he spake unto them in the Hebrew language, they were the more quiet: and he saith,
3 I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, at the feet of Gamaliel, instructed according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God, even as ye all are this day:
​

Unfortunately, I could find nothing definitive about Gamaliel's tribe. If that could be established, since Paul was of Benjamin, that might give some insight. As it is, it is inconclusive.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Thank you for this. I like that. However, you as well as I know that though he says his father is a Pharisee, he doesn't say who he is.

My wife and I used to teach. I must say, personally, I would prefer not to teach my own sons.
I recognize the possibility. It is a bit strange that the references mention nothing about this being the case, and some of these references have scholars behind them.

I might put in a little more digging into this. If you find something let me know.

Your Welcome
Ok, I will.
Paul was taught the Scriptures by Gamaliel in Acts 22:3

 

[Buddha Dharma]

of the tribe of Benjamin

This could add to any suspicion of Paul's authenticity as a Jew because the tribe of Benjamin is traditionally the convert's tribe. Thought I'd mention that a Jew told me that once.

I already doubt that Paul was in any sense qualified to speak on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, and as others have said in this thread- he tried to accuse Peter, which is arrogant at best. Peter knew Jesus allegedly in human person, and Paul never did.

 

[Grandliseur]

Now the Torah wasn't all abolished as a curse, but divided- and the 'still applicable' parts were folded in? You're losing me here...

The law became a curse because there was no avoiding sin, thus we were cursed and had to die:

Eze 18: 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.​

However, once the issue of faith was incorporated into the New Covenant, many of the laws therein were foundation laws of mankind that God would never change. These were incorporated into the Law of Faith, the New Covenant. So, while some the laws in the New Covenant were incorporated from the Mosaic Law, we now had faith to ransom us through Christ's ransom.

As a person marries and earns money and property, children being born, he makes a testament to mirror his circumstances. Once he is old and before his death, his circumstances may change drastically, yet some of the previous conditions may remain. When he updates his last will and testament, his new testament reflects births and deaths, property acquisitions, etc. Not all the previous conditions are abolished, many may be included in his new last testament. So it was here. The animal sacrifices, the priesthood, and the animals we could eat, clean unclean, much of this was erased. Other things remained and transferred into the New Covenant. As Paul said, we don't abolish law, we establish it, namely, the Law of Faith.

Before it was do or die, now it became do what you can at best value, and if you fail and sin, you're forgiven by faith unless you commit the unforgivable sins. Before it was works save, now it was, good works prove you have faith, and sinning takes a second seat, you can still be saved.

 

[Grandliseur]

@Grandliseur you don't find Paul's claim to have been a Pharisee odd, since his rhetoric is thoroughly Greek in style, and he never recounts anything Gamaliel taught him? His begging the question kind of argumentation we find all over Romans is thoroughly Greek. It's the argumentation style we find all over Plato, and such.

It is rather odd to me anyway that Paul would never mention one thing from Gamaliel the Great, when we have it from the Mishna that: a good student is like a stone cistern that loses not a drop of the master's teaching...

I am a kind of Biblical literalist and kind of not. Things must harmonize in the global Biblical picture.

What do you think of Paul breathing murder on Christians before his conversion?

Acts 9:1-2 9 But Saul, still breathing threat and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, in order that he might bring bound to Jerusalem any whom he found who belonged to The Way, both men and women.​

Does this not reflect his teachings under the Pharisee?! If then having been enlightened by direct revelation, even struck blind, would that not cause him to change his perspective totally while understanding scripture better than even his teacher pharisee did?! This is beyond my scope of knowledge.

Paul clearly was made to be an apostle to the gentiles, he understood their mentality having been born Roman.

Romans 11:13 Now I speak to YOU who are people of the nations. Forasmuch as I am, in reality, an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry,​

Paul knew how to speak to non-Jews so to get their attention.

​

 

[Grandliseur]

This could add to any suspicion of Paul's authenticity as a Jew because the tribe of Benjamin is traditionally the convert's tribe. Thought I'd mention that a Jew told me that once.

Explain converts tribe please. To me the tribe of Benjamin is the one nearly destroyed by God because of their evil. The few survivors repented obviously.

I already doubt that Paul was in any sense qualified to speak on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, and as others have said in this thread- he tried to accuse Peter, which is arrogant at best. Peter knew Jesus allegedly in human person, and Paul never did.

Elaborate on Peter. If you mean the incident of favoritism that Peter showed, Peter needed to be corrected. He was always impulsive.

Sometimes not knowing someone in person permits us to avoid the problem of 'familiarity breeds contempt'; so, when Paul got heavenly revelations, his perspective of Jesus was more elevated than Peter's?!

 

[Buddha Dharma]

so, when Paul got heavenly revelations

If we are convinced and accept he did...

Explain converts tribe please.

Basically, this Jew explained to me that when one converts to Judaism, their tribe is Benjamin. Benjamin is where the converts get sorted.

 

[Grandliseur]

Basically, this Jew explained to me that when one converts to Judaism, their tribe is Benjamin. Benjamin is where the converts get sorted.

It needs members; it is the smallest.

There are things that have made me accept the Bible as we have it. I am not saying that there may exist other literature out there that we shouldn't read, some things seem to be true. But, the Bible is my authority. If I reject that, faith goes out the window, and when the window is open we freeze to death in the darkness and cold of this world that lacks faith .

 

[Buddha Dharma]

There are things that have made me accept the Bible as we have it. I am not saying that there may exist other literature out there that we shouldn't read, some things seem to be true. But, the Bible is my authority. If I reject that, faith goes out the window, and when the window is open we freeze to death in the darkness and cold of this world that lacks faith

Oh I understand what you're saying here. I relate and I admire it. Yes, it's good to know where one stands, even if it requires belief. I'm a traditional Buddhist, and understand very well from my own place. Many modern Buddhists don't realize they're making the Buddha's teaching weak when they decide what parts of the historically acknowledged teaching they can throw out.

I understand very well what you mean about the Bible. Peace friend

 

[12jtartar]

But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

Basically, the questions I would ask Christians stem from the underlined parts of the verse.

Question 1: What is the curse pronounced by the law?

Question 2: What scripture is this written in?

Question 3: What scripture is the tree detail referencing?


This verse has always appeared as an odd argument to me on Paul's part.

Buddha Dharma,
Go back a couple of Scriptures and you have your answer, Galatians 3:10, and the Scriptures tell that all who are under The Mosaic Covenant are under a Curse. There are good reasons for this, The Mosaic Law Covenant was Law of Works, and Works cannot save a person. We are under a New Covenant, which Jesus instituted on the night before his death, Luke 22:14-20. True Christians are under The Law of Faith, not Works, Galatians 2:15,16. The New Covenant was based on Jesus blood, the Mosaic Covenant was based on the blood of goats and bulls, Hebrews 9:11-14. The Mosaic Law Covenant condemns to death, the New Covenant gives a chance for life everlasting, by Faith in Jesus’s Ransom Sacrifice, 2Corinthians 3:2-11. No one was forgiven, completely, of their sins under The Mosaic Law Covenant, Acts 13:38,39, Hebrews 10:4-18. The New Covenant is explained very well at Hebrews 8:1-13.
How much better the New Covenant is, where we are saved by faith in the Sacrifice that Jesus made for us, 1Timothy 2:3-5, John 3:16. The only way to life everlasting is through Jesus, Acts 4:12!!
We must all follow in Jesus’s footsteps, 1Peter 2:21!!!

 

[Faithofchristian]

Buddha Dharma,
Go back a couple of Scriptures and you have your answer, Galatians 3:10, and the Scriptures tell that all who are under The Mosaic Covenant are under a Curse. There are good reasons for this, The Mosaic Law Covenant was Law of Works, and Works cannot save a person. We are under a New Covenant, which Jesus instituted on the night before his death, Luke 22:14-20. True Christians are under The Law of Faith, not Works, Galatians 2:15,16. The New Covenant was based on Jesus blood, the Mosaic Covenant was based on the blood of goats and bulls, Hebrews 9:11-14. The Mosaic Law Covenant condemns to death, the New Covenant gives a chance for life everlasting, by Faith in Jesus’s Ransom Sacrifice, 2Corinthians 3:2-11. No one was forgiven, completely, of their sins under The Mosaic Law Covenant, Acts 13:38,39, Hebrews 10:4-18. The New Covenant is explained very well at Hebrews 8:1-13.
How much better the New Covenant is, where we are saved by faith in the Sacrifice that Jesus made for us, 1Timothy 2:3-5, John 3:16. The only way to life everlasting is through Jesus, Acts 4:12!!
We must all follow in Jesus’s footsteps, 1Peter 2:21!!!

As to what law are you referring to, As the law of works, That Paul referring to as the curse of the law, in Galatians Chapter 3.

 

[Phantasman]

What Luke is referring to, If you love your father and mother and brother and sister more than Christ Jesus can not be his disciple.

Your first love is to God.

It doesn't say to love them at all, first or second to God. It's not the individuals you hate, it's the flesh that they represent. Hate mammon, love God. When one doesn't understand the sword, separating fathers and sons, mothers and daughters, they don't understand what the difference is in flesh and spirit.

Christ said his mother and brethren were his disciples and not Mary and his fleshly brothers.

Matthew:
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The Holy Spirit is Christs mother. Not Mary. Mary is Jesus mother. Know your true mother and father, who is spirit, not flesh. This is what born again means. Of your true parents.

Gospel of Thomas:
(99) The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and your mother are standing outside."
He said to them, "Those here who do the will of my father are my brothers and my mother. It is they who will enter the kingdom of my father."

(101) <Jesus said,> "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not love his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. For my mother [...], but my true mother gave me life."

Jesus true mother was the Holy Spirit, not Mary. And to be a son of God, we must see the same.

John:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

It's not hard for me to see.

 

[Faithofchristian]

It doesn't say to love them at all, first or second to God. It's not the individuals you hate, it's the flesh that they represent. Hate mammon, love God. When one doesn't understand the sword, separating fathers and sons, mothers and daughters, they don't understand what the difference is in flesh and spirit.

Christ said his mother and brethren were his disciples and not Mary and his fleshly brothers.

Matthew:
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The Holy Spirit is Christs mother. Not Mary. Mary is Jesus mother. Know your true mother and father, who is spirit, not flesh. This is what born again means. Of your true parents.

Gospel of Thomas:
(99) The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and your mother are standing outside."
He said to them, "Those here who do the will of my father are my brothers and my mother. It is they who will enter the kingdom of my father."

(101) <Jesus said,> "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not love his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. For my mother [...], but my true mother gave me life."

Jesus true mother was the Holy Spirit, not Mary. And to be a son of God, we must see the same.

John:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

It's not hard for me to see.

Well you just showed yourself as having no understanding about Spiritual discernment. To know what is spiritual and what is not.

I love it, when Christ puts spiritual things, That people have no idea about, all but his elect people knows exactly what he is meaning.

 

[Phantasman]

Presumably the Mosaic Law, as Christians in this thread keep telling me I am correct to infer. Look, don't try to gaslight me, just respond to my questions.

I've read the Bible and possess comprehension skills- believe that or not...

You see it. As well as the orthodox lie.

Exodus 16:
Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

John 6:
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

I just let the orthodox go their way. If they want to follow Moses, so be it. I follow Christ Jesus which covers everything. He's the only bread, knowledge, truth, way. Moses died. Christ lives. It's that simple.

 

[Phantasman]

Well you just showed yourself as having no understanding about Spiritual discernment. To know what is spiritual and what is not.

I love it, when Christ puts spiritual things, That people have no idea about, all but his elect people knows exactly what he is meaning.

Then why don't you show me what I'm missing with scripture rather than judging me? Loving the flesh is not spiritual to me. And I provide Gospel words showing my view. You even use Spiritual capitalized, meaning Holy Spirit (and not spiritual understanding). Show me the words of the Holy Spirit then. Remember, Jesus gave it to us, so don't go back to the OT. The Spirit hadn't been given to man then.

 

[Phantasman]

What law is sin and death. What law is that

The laws of Moses that the Jews lived under.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Then why don't you show me what I'm missing with scripture rather than judging me? Loving the flesh is not spiritual to me. And I provide Gospel words showing my view. You even use Spiritual capitalized, meaning Holy Spirit (and not spiritual understanding). Show me the words of the Holy Spirit then. Remember, Jesus gave it to us, so don't go back to the OT. The Spirit hadn't been given to man then.

I don't know where you get the Spirit hadn't been given to man back in the old testament, The Spirit was given to man alot of times in the old testament.

This is where you have no Spiritual awareness of the old testament.

Let's see if you have any Spiritual discernment, In the book of Mark 13, Christ Jesus fortold what the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is and when it will happen and by who can commit it.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The laws of Moses that the Jews lived under.

That doesn't say, what the law of sin and death is. Which law is the law of sin and death. There's only one law that is the law of sin and death. Which law is that ?