Galatians 3:13

[InChrist]

Right. These verses plainly say they are about a penalty for specific sins, but do not plainly say anything like Paul inferred- including that the messiah could hang on a tree to lift the 'curse of the law'.



I don't see how the Torah anywhere implies Christ could do this. In fact, Ezekiel 18 seems to deny such an idea outright.

The Torah also shows that the people of Israel, who had the Law, repeatedly fell into sin and failed to meet the requirements of the law. I don't see that Ezekiel denies the idea of a Savior dying and paying for sins at all and Isaiah 53 fully supports it.

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.


7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul,b]">[b] and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 53:4-12

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Not in the way Paul sees it. I think Paul was doing some far-reaching. The preceding verse in Deuteronomy seems to clarify the context without any expounding. It says that death is the penalty for 'death-worthy' transgressions, but it doesn't suggest anything more profoundly theological than that, as concerns the law itself.

Is it that sin brings death then?

 

[InChrist]

So with everything that you given, how does that fit into the book of the law, which Paul spoke about in Galatians 3:10.

Which the book of the law is found in the book of Deuteronomy 30, which Moses instructed Joshua to read to the people of Israel every sabbath day.

So can you explain exactly how sin and death fits into the book of the law, Unto which Moses written nothing about in the book of the law in Deuteronomy 30

What exactly is your question?

 

[74x12]

It seems to do in the very preceding verse. @RabbiO do you think this inference by Paul is odd? This is outside of typical Jewish commentating, no? Certainly, going beyond peshat?

The point here is the part about the curse is actually an aside explaining why they shouldn't hang on the tree all night. It does not give an explanation as to why they are cursed by God more than any other criminal that is killed and not hung on a tree. The KJV for example even puts it in parenthesis.

 

[Faithofchristian]

What exactly is your question?

In Galatians 3:10 Paul written about the curse of the law. Which law has become a curse

 

[james bond]

But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

Basically, the questions I would ask Christians stem from the underlined parts of the verse.

Question 1: What is the curse pronounced by the law?

Question 2: What scripture is this written in?

Question 3: What scripture is the tree detail referencing?


This verse has always appeared as an odd argument to me on Paul's part.

I think you have the right scripture. Basically, it says that we do not achieve salvation through obedience of the laws. We achieve it through faith. The laws point out our weaknesses and where we fail in trying to achieve God's will. I suppose that is the curse. What's important is the laws do not judge us as to being righteous. We live in an imperfect world due to Adam and Eve's sin, so it's impossible to keep all of the laws. The Jews supposedly had over 600 laws in order to be considered perfect.

As for being hung on a tree, I think that is referring to Jesus who freed us from the curse of the law. Not only did he provide ransom, he became a curse for us.

 

[Phantasman]

That doesn't say, what the law of sin and death is. Which law is the law of sin and death. There's only one law that is the law of sin and death. Which law is that ?

I'm not going to play games. You are an orthodox believer and I am not. A Christian follows Christ. The Jews do not. It's that simple. Paul gave up his Jewish religion for Christ. You want to hold to it. Let Paul explain it and argue with him.

Galatians 1:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Paul clearly says what I said. He was separated from his mother (flesh) by the Spirit. The Spirit taught him, not any man, including Moses or the prophets, as they were men. The Holy Spirit became his mother, who nurtured and taught him.

This explains the OP. I can do this all day long. Maybe someone else will see it.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I'm not going to play games. You are an orthodox believer and I am not. A Christian follows Christ. The Jews do not. It's that simple. Paul gave up his Jewish religion for Christ. You want to hold to it. Let Paul explain it and argue with him.

Galatians 1:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Paul clearly says what I said. He was separated from his mother (flesh) by the Spirit. The Spirit taught him, not any man, including Moses or the prophets, as they were men. The Holy Spirit became his mother, who nurtured and taught him.

This explains the OP. I can do this all day long. Maybe someone else will see it.

I'm not going to play games. You are an orthodox believer and I am not. A Christian follows Christ. The Jews do not. It's that simple. Paul gave up his Jewish religion for Christ. You want to hold to it. Let Paul explain it and argue with him.

Galatians 1:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Paul clearly says what I said. He was separated from his mother (flesh) by the Spirit. The Spirit taught him, not any man, including Moses or the prophets, as they were men. The Holy Spirit became his mother, who nurtured and taught him.

This explains the OP. I can do this all day long. Maybe someone else will see it.

What does all those Verse's that you given, have to do with the law of sin and death ?

You still haven't explained which law is the law of sin and death. Which law is that.

 

[Phantasman]

What does all those Verse's that you given, have to do with the law of sin and death ?

You still haven't explained which law is the law of sin and death. Which law is that.

Paul says:
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

What do you want me to say? The ten commandments? Circumcision? Certain foods?

They all amount to the law (Mosaic law). They were given by Moses, who did not get them from heaven (where the Father is). And because of this, the Jews all died, residing in Hades (grave) until the true God (the Father) sent his son to them to save those that had faith that he would come. The law saves no one. It didn't save the Jews and it won't save you or I. Just ask the rich man who asked Jesus, the one who said he kept the law from birth. He went his way and was lost KEEPING THE LAW.

Matthew:
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

It is love he lacked. He loved mammon. Not God. Flesh, not spirit.

Paul says:
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

We fulfill the law, not follow it. The rich man followed it. Christ fulfills it. We do NOT need the law anymore. Jesus gave two commandments that we live by. If you live by them, the (OT) law is fulfilled. We do not need to understand or believe what Moses said. Only what Christ says.

 

[InChrist]

In Galatians 3:10 Paul written about the curse of the law. Which law has become a curse

The law itself is not the curse, it is breaking the the law, any of the law, that brings the curse of death or separation from God. So Paul was saying that to be under the law or those who try to live and please God by keeping the law is being under a curse because no one can keep all the law perfectly.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” Galatians 3:10

 

[Buddha Dharma]

The Torah also shows that the people of Israel, who had the Law, repeatedly fell into sin and failed to meet the requirements of the law. I don't see that Ezekiel denies the idea of a Savior dying and paying for sins at all and Isaiah 53 fully supports it.

That same law also prescribes no other remedy for this 'sinning' and 'failing to keep it' then to repent and try again. I don't find in the law a lot of the things Christians want to ascribe to it, including some idea that not keeping every command perfectly is a deal breaker in salvation. Isaiah 53 is traditionally interpreted, I believe, as being about Israel itself. I believe Rashi says 53 depicts what the nations mutter among themselves about Israel.

I believe it is Ezekiel 18 that pretty much says no one can die for anyone else's sins. I will be glad to get you the precise verse if you ask for it. I have a lot to respond to at present, so please give me a sec.

Is it that sin brings death then?

Deuteronomy implies no context beyond it being about death-worthy offenses against the law. Specific offenses, and not an idea of 'sin bringing death' at the cosmic level of Christianity. In fact, I would think Jews probably find the cosmic implications that Christians give sin a bit odd.

The point here is the part about the curse is actually an aside explaining why they shouldn't hang on the tree all night. It does not give an explanation as to why they are cursed by God more than any other criminal that is killed and not hung on a tree. The KJV for example even puts it in parenthesis.

Do you mind putting this in a different way? Only because I find your wording here hard to process. I am sorry

As for being hung on a tree, I think that is referring to Jesus who freed us from the curse of the law. Not only did he provide ransom, he became a curse for us.

Yes, I'm aware that is Paul's claim...

 

[sandy whitelinger]

That same law also prescribes no other remedy for this 'sinning' and 'failing to keep it' then to repent and try again. I don't find in the law a lot of the things Christians want to ascribe to it, including some idea that not keeping every command perfectly is a deal breaker in salvation. Isaiah 53 is traditionally interpreted, I believe, as being about Israel itself. I believe Rashi says 53 depicts what the nations mutter among themselves about Israel.

I believe it is Ezekiel 18 that pretty much says no one can die for anyone else's sins. I will be glad to get you the precise verse if you ask for it. I have a lot to respond to at present, so please give me a sec.



Deuteronomy implies no context beyond it being about death-worthy offenses against the law. Specific offenses, and not an idea of 'sin bringing death' at the cosmic level of Christianity. In fact, I would think Jews probably find the cosmic implications that Christians give sin a bit odd.



Do you mind putting this in a different way? Only because I find your wording here hard to process. I am sorry



Yes, I'm aware that is Paul's claim...

I'm not all that keen on the whole cosmic death nonsense. I think the Biblical idea of death is dying kinda dead.
Would you dispute this?

 

[Buddha Dharma]

I'm not all that keen on the whole cosmic death nonsense. I think the Biblical idea of death is dying kinda dead.
Would you dispute this?

I might not dispute it if I accepted Ecclesiastes as my standard. Christianity however, typically believes in salvation and damnation- and in heaven/hell.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I might not dispute it if I accepted Ecclesiastes as my standard. Christianity however, typically believes in salvation and damnation- and in heaven/hell.

Oh yes, Christianity is about salvation. Immortality as well. Death still means worm fodder though.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I might not dispute it if I accepted Ecclesiastes as my standard. Christianity however, typically believes in salvation and damnation- and in heaven/hell.

I hold Ecclesiastes in high regard. It is all just vanity and vexation of the spirit after all.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The law itself is not the curse, it is breaking the the law, any of the law, that brings the curse of death or separation from God. So Paul was saying that to be under the law or those who try to live and please God by keeping the law is being under a curse because no one can keep all the law perfectly.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” Galatians 3:10

What law is Paul speaking about that is works, that is a curse in Galatians 3:10,

 

[Buddha Dharma]

I hold Ecclesiastes in high regard. It is all just vanity and vexation of the spirit after all.

I hold Ecclesiastes in high regard, as the Bible goes. In fact, if someone asked me- I'd probably tell them the only useful parts of the Bible are Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, and possibly the Gospel of Mark.

I'd rather just stick by Jefferson's 'Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth' though- as the gospels go. He did all the work for me already

 

[sandy whitelinger]

What law is Paul speaking about that is works, that is a curse in Galatians 3:10,

Here I thought Paul said that death was the curse back in Romans.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I hold Ecclesiastes in high regard, as the Bible goes. In fact, if someone asked me- I'd probably tell them the only useful parts of the Bible are Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, and possibly the Gospel of Mark.

I'd rather just stick by Jefferson's 'Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth' though as the gospels go. He did all the work for me already and left only the teachings.

The Bible basically boils down to simplicity and faith. Without this all the gobbledygook is just that. Why trouble myself over what is gibberish. That is where faith helps me.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Here I thought Paul said that death was the curse back in Romans.

Let's try and take this one step at time.What Paul is talking about in
Galatians 3:10--"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: For it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them"

There rose up certain sect of the Pharisees, saying, that is was needful to circumcised the Gentiles, and to command them to keep the law of Moses, This being the book of the law. Acts 15:3-5

To have the Gentiles to Circumcised themselves, which would be nothing wrong in that, But when a certain sect of the Pharisees said that the Gentiles should keep the law of Moses. This where Paul and Peter and the other disciples drew the line at.

Then Peter stood up and said unto them all, "Men and brethren, you know how that a good while ago God made choice Among Us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the Gospel, and believe. And God, which knows the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us: and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt you God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they" Acts 15:7-11.

Therefore it is not needful for the Gentiles to keep the law of Moses, to be saved.

The law of Moses, is what is called in the Bible, The book of the law.
This is the book of the law, which Paul is speaking about in Galatians 3:10.

There are many things that Moses had written down in the book of the law, That if they were not done precisely as Moses had written them down,Then there's a Curse for not following them precisely as Moses had written them down.

Let's take for instance the sacrificial lamb offering, If it was not done precisely as Moses had written it down, then there's a Curse for not following the instructions of Moses, As how the sacrificial lamb offering is to be done, in the book of the law.

Therefore if people wish to have their male children circumsized, there's nothing wrong in that. But to say, because they are circumcised that now they must keep the law of Moses, That's over stepping the line, What Paul and Peter and the other disciples sat down.

Christ Jesus came to redeemed us from the curse of the book of the law of Moses, Where as the book of the law of Moses, was our school-master
But after Christ Jesus has come, we are no longer under the school- master, The book of the law of Moses.

But for those who wish to place themselves under the book of the law of Moses, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the Curse: For it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them"
Galatians 3:10.

Therefore if those things in the book of the law of Moses are not done precisely as Moses had written them down, then there's a Curse for them, who do not follow the instructions, what Moses had written down precisely.