Gay advocates protest marriage ban across nation

[Storm]

I know, I support gay marriage too.

I know you do, which is why I expect better of you.

But this is one argument I do not believe holds any water.

You don't recognize that queers are denied equal protection under the law?

You do not have the right to marry someone you love. Love is not a requirement for marriage nor does the government recognize anything resembling "love".

Oh, of course not. We still live in an age where marriages are arranged by the families for socio-political gain. :sarcastic

 

[Apex]

I know you do, which is why I expect better of you.

You don't recognize that queers are denied equal protection under the law?

Oh, of course not. We still live in an age where marriages are arranged by the families for socio-political gain. :sarcastic

Love is a cultural requirement (or "expectation" is probably a better word), not a legal requirement.

 

[Storm]

Do you maintain that queers already have equal protection under the law?

 

[Green Gaia]

No, but Zippy can get marry the person he loves and enjoy full legal protection of his family. Green Gaia cannot. Come on, Apex, you know better than that.

Exactly.

 

[Green Gaia]

I know, I support gay marriage too. But this is one argument I do not believe holds any water. You do not have the right to marry someone you love. Love is not a requirement for marriage nor does the government recognize anything resembling "love".

Then what the *bleep* is the point of marriage if not to make a commitment to the person you want to spend the rest of your life with?

 

[Father Heathen]

but you can't force the populace to accept it, especially if it violates their core belief system or right and wrong.

It's not their business, so whether they accept it or not is entirely irrelevant. YOUR beliefs of right and wrong have absolutely nothing to do with others. If it's okay for homosexual marriage to be banned just because YOU think it's wrong, then it's totally acceptable for Mormonism to be banned just because someone else thinks it's wrong (and you know there are many out there who do). You need to respect other peoples rights, whether you agree with it or not, and keep you snout out of out peoples business.

 

[Father Heathen]

Same-Sex marriage is a blatant attack on the institution of marriage and a perversion to The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It's not the governments job to prevent the so called "perversion to The Gospel of Jesus Christ". Primitive superstitions should have absolutely no baring on the law, especially for those who don't even believe in it. If you want a religious oriented government, gather up your wife and daughter and move along on to Iran. You would be much happier there.

 

[Father Heathen]

In all fairness, the government already does. Zippy can not marry another man.

You're smarter than that, Apex. At least you should be.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You can't force acceptance. You can get every state in the nation sanctioning "gay marriage", but you can't force the populace to accept it, especially if it violates their core belief system or right and wrong.

What is love to some is sodomy to others. That does not mean those of us who do not agree with the "gay marriage" advocates here hate our brothers and sisters of the human race. We just disagree what marriage is. Marriage is a heterosexual union for the procreation of families through a contractural relationships.

Try this on for size:

You can't force acceptance. You can get every state in the nation sanctioning "non-Christian religion", but you can't force the populace to accept it, especially if it violates their core belief system or right and wrong.

What is religion to some is blasphemy to others. That does not mean those of us who do not agree with the "non-Christian religion" advocates here hate our brothers and sisters of the human race. We just disagree what religion is. Religion is a community of Christian believers for the worship of God through doctrines and rituals.

I know you've advocated strongly for freedom of religion here before. Can't you see a parallel between these two issues?

In all fairness, the government already does. Zippy can not marry another man.

Setting aside the fact that zippy's married (IIRC), the rights are not the same. Pick any person at random; if zippy can legally marry him or her, Gaia cannot and vice versa.

 

[darkendless]

You can't force acceptance. You can get every state in the nation sanctioning "gay marriage", but you can't force the populace to accept it, especially if it violates their core belief system or right and wrong.

Now marches and protests have two outcomes. They either work for you or against your cause. It depends on the subject being protested AND how those who protest act. Most protesters are peaceful, but some on the lunatic fringe have been harrassing, vandalizing, intimidating, and persecuting. Not a great way to get what you want.

You can't force it. But lets hope those who fight against homosexual marriage burn in hell for their blind intolerance. If God wanted us created equally than so far he has failed.

Marches show the rest of the world how intolerant Americans are towards change and the advancement of our species. Ill be honest, its sickening watching Americans on t.v marching around with signs saying God hates gay's. They're lucky most people are tolerant of their bigotry or they'd have their churches burnt down. I think less of America for this and it saddens me to watch my pathetic country follow yours like a lapdog.

Edit: sorry for the swearing

 

[gnomon]

You can't force acceptance. You can get every state in the nation sanctioning "gay marriage", but you can't force the populace to accept it, especially if it violates their core belief system or right and wrong.

True, you cannot force acceptance. Education, on the other hand......

What is love to some is sodomy to others. That does not mean those of us who do not agree with the "gay marriage" advocates here hate our brothers and sisters of the human race. We just disagree what marriage is. Marriage is a heterosexual union for the procreation of families through a contractural relationships.

I think you need to educate yourself on the definition of sodomy. There is a woman currently trying to get herself removed from the sex offender registry in Georgia because when she turned 17 she "sodomized" an almost 16 year old male. It's called oral sex.

1 billion homosexuals marching and chanting can't change this truth. I am sorry but this is the way it is. A dog is a dog, a tiger a tiger, a man is a man, and woman woman. Marriage is between a man and woman in most societies. In polygamous it is between one man and several women or one woman and several man(I have seen National Geographic), but never homosexual in nature. Even isolated tribes in the world who live life circa 5,000 years ago practice heterosexual marriage.

The highlighted portion. Nature states otherwise. I have already raised this issue on many an occasion with hardly a reply from religious believers.

Now marches and protests have two outcomes. They either work for you or against your cause. It depends on the subject being protested AND how those who protest act. Most protesters are peaceful, but some on the lunatic fringe have been harrassing, vandalizing, intimidating, and persecuting. Not a great way to get what you want.

You're right. Small groups within a community who demonize, harass and intimidate detract from the more important issues.

 

[MoonWater]

Does anyone know if there's been anymore news from the lawsuits going up against prop 8?

 

[madhatter85]

Does anyone know if there's been anymore news from the lawsuits going up against prop 8?

the ones that will ultimately fail?

 

[madhatter85]

True, you cannot force acceptance. Education, on the other hand......

Education that what? homosexuality is a normal thing and we must condone it? puh-leaze...:cover:

I think you need to educate yourself on the definition of sodomy. There is a woman currently trying to get herself removed from the sex offender registry in Georgia because when she turned 17 she "sodomized" an almost 16 year old male. It's called oral sex.

you say potato, i say sodomy

The highlighted portion. Nature states otherwise. I have already raised this issue on many an occasion with hardly a reply from religious believers.

i addressed it. a man is a man and a woman is a woman. there are genetic defects that cause abnormalities in babies:
Birth defects - ambiguous genitalia - Better Health Channel.

Anyone who sufferes from gender identity issues without a real genetic reason is either a hypocondriac or simply confused by either trauma or horrid parenting and needs therapy.

You're right. Small groups within a community who demonize, harass and intimidate detract from the more important issues.

Yet, inside you actually like the fact that they are doing it. Don't lie, you support them, i know.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

you say potato, i say sodomy

Sounds painful to me, but whatever floats your boat.

i addressed it. a man is a man and a woman is a woman. there are genetic defects that cause abnormalities in babies:
Birth defects - ambiguous genitalia - Better Health Channel.

Do you really think that a gay or bi man is somehow "not a man" or that a lesbian or bi woman is somehow "not a woman"?

 

[gnomon]

Education that what? homosexuality is a normal thing and we must condone it? puh-leaze...:cover:

Natural, not normal.
According to nature, yes. According to some make believe fairy tale, no.

you say potato, i say sodomy

No, I know the definition of the term sodomy. You might actually try adhering to the meaning of the terms, as the law does, rather than obfuscate in order to maintain a delusion.

i addressed it. a man is a man and a woman is a woman. there are genetic defects that cause abnormalities in babies:
Birth defects - ambiguous genitalia - Better Health Channel.

And yet, they are still human beings. I would think someone who adheres to a religious belief that is so swell, like the LDS, would recognize that and actually attempt to understand the issue. It still remains, nature proves that God does not put his hand in creating every human being.

Anyone who sufferes from gender identity issues without a real genetic reason is either a hypocondriac or simply confused by either trauma or horrid parenting and needs therapy.

That's just a bigoted statement.

Yet, inside you actually like the fact that they are doing it. Don't lie, you support them, i know.

No, I don't. Never said I did.

 

[Green Gaia]

Education that what? homosexuality is a normal thing and we must condone it? puh-leaze...:cover:

Uh, well yeah.....because it is normal and natural for some people.

you say potato, i say sodomy

I've never had sex with a potato, so I don't know. I'll just have to take your word for it.

 

[gnomon]

Since madhatter tried to respond to my response to zippy and finally broached the subject I asked him about ages ago........

What is intersex? | Intersex Society of North America

Is intersex the same as "ambiguous genitalia"? | Intersex Society of North America

No, saying someone has an intersex condition isn’t the same as saying she or he was born with “ambiguous genitalia,” because some people with intersex conditions have genitalia that look pretty typically masculine or feminine. So, for example, girls born with XY chromosomes and complete androgen insensitivity syndrome have genitals that look pretty typically female. And some children born with XX chromosomes and congenital adrenal hyperplasia are born with genitals that look thoroughly male. Yet nearly all medical professionals agree that these kinds of conditions are intersex.

How come many people have never heard of intersex? | Intersex Society of North America

People who are intersex will tell you that the primary thing they’ve been harmed by is induced shame about their intersex. The best way to reduce shame (and thereby reduce harm to individuals and families coping with intersex) is to talk openly and honestly about intersex. If you’ve learned something new at our site today, tell someone else about it.

What's the difference between being transgender or transsexual and having an intersex condition? | Intersex Society of North America

Thus, where all people who identify as transgender or transsexual experience problems with their gender identity, only a small portion of intersex people experience these problems. It’s also important to understand the differences between these two groups because in spite of some similarities they face many different struggles, including different forms of discrimination. The differences between transgender and transsexual and intersex have been understood by lawmakers in countries such as Australia where lawmakers have publicly acknowledged that people with intersex conditions have distinct needs from people who identify as transgender or transsexual.
People who identify as transgender or transsexual also face discrimination and deserve equality. We also believe that people with intersex conditions and folks who identify as transgender or transsexual can and should continue to work together on human rights issues; however, there are important differences to keep in mind so that both groups can work toward a better future.

YouTube - Intersex (Part 1 of 3)
YouTube - Intersex (Part 2 of 3)
YouTube - Intersex #3

Here's a question, if an intersex individual is assigned as a boy or a girl and they later determine for themselves that they are more comfortable as the opposite of what they are assigned......what does the law say about that? I imagine it's different from state to state.

Why should an XY woman with CAIS be subjected to her marriage being nullified if this conditioned is discovered during an examination to determine why she is infertile? Why do lawyers and religious leaders get to determine these things as opposed to doctors and the individuals themselves?

 

[gnomon]

Who Will Make Room for the Intersexed?

Prior to the treatment of intersexuality in the United States, intersexed Americans were treated as either male or female according to their dominant physical characteristics.31 This strict male/female delineation is not used in all countries though. Other cultures have treated intersexuals differently, either as a third sex, neither male nor female, or as natural sexual variations of the male or female sex.32 Alternatively, some societies still accept intersexed people without clearly defining their sex at birth.33

For instance, within small communities in the Dominican Republic and Papua New Guinea, there is a hereditary intersex condition known as 5-alpha reductase deficiency that occurs with a relatively high frequency.34 This condition causes male children to be born with very small or unrecognizable penises.35 During puberty, the children's male hormones cause their penises to grow and other secondary male [page 45] sexual characteristics to develop.36 Most of these children are raised as girls and begin living as men when they reach puberty.37 These communities have accepted these intersexuals without genital reconstruction surgery.38 In the United States, however, a child with the same condition would likely be surgically altered at birth, raised as a girl and treated with hormones to prevent the onset of male physical development.39

In the United States, there is a general belief that Gawd makes little boys and girls.

3. Marriage: Determining Gender Determines Sexuality
Genital reconstruction surgery may inhibit or completely interfere with a child's fundamental right to marry. In the United States, there are currently no states in which it is legal to marry someone of the same sex.192 In 1993, several gay couples challenged the prohibition against same-sex marriages under the Hawaii Constitution.193 The Hawaii Supreme Court ruled in favor of the plaintiffs and allowed the first gay couples to marry legally.194 In reaction to the ruling, the Hawaii state legislature immediately amended their own constitution to prohibit same-sex marriages.195 The federal government reacted to the first gay marriages by passing the Defense of Marriage Act, which allows states to refuse to recognize same-sex marriages that are legally valid in another state.196 Given that 3% of the world population does not fit into a clearly defined sex and still engage in marriage and child birth, it would be wise to re-think this prohibition.

Once an intersexed person has undergone genital reconstruction surgery making his or her genitals clearly male or female, he or she cannot then choose to change his or her birth certificate without having a second round of surgeries performed.198 For example, if a child born with male chromosomes or mixed chromosomes is surgically assigned a female gender at birth, that individual would be prohibited from marrying a female later in life without first undergoing another sex change operation.199 In this case, if the initial gender reconstruction surgery had not been performed, this person would be considered a male, not a homosexual female, and thus would have a fundamental right to marry.


By choosing a gender for the child and performing reconstruction surgery at birth, the doctors may be infringing on an individual's ability to marry as an adult. The imposition of additional surgery to change their assigned sex would add such high financial and emotional costs on the individual that it may prohibit some, otherwise qualified, intersexuals from marrying.

The most important question, again, is why do we allow religious beliefs to shape the legal definitions for these people?

Another important question, how come theologies that rely heavily on a divine presence that brings forth every child into this world but also posits proscriptions on sexual abberations deal with a natural fact of life?

They turn their head but continue to speak is what they do.

edit: Looks like I killed the thread.

 

[zippythepinhead]

Exactly.

But I didn't marry the man I loved. I left him for a blow up doll and she is wonderful:sorry1:.....sheeesh!