Gay

[Marisa]

It's not that simple.

For instance, how exactly would you feel if someone told you this: in following Christianity, you are a automatically traitor to your People, and to the Gods of your People, and are to be shunned and pitied accordingly, as an Outlaw?

Now, take that one step further: imagine that it's your entire native culture that claims this? You hear it every single day from people not even talking to you directly, just in reference to people like you. You also hear, every day, that people like you should be rounded up and killed?

That's still not a perfect equivalent, because being Christian is a choice. Being homosexual is not.

And for the record, I don't actually believe any of that hypothetical drivel. Can't betray something to which you never swore allegiance to, and I strongly believe that the sins of the parent die with the parent.

And in saying all this, they claim to love you but hate your sin. And that all this they do is out of the deepest kind of love, for your eternal soul.

People who grow up with physical abuse think love is painful. This is no different. But the believer doing this believes they have god's divine permission and are doing his will. They absolve themselves of guilt the same way an abuser does, when he/she says "I wouldn't have hit you if you'd just ____________________". It's never the abusers fault, always the victim's.

 

[Marisa]

I'd do shots with Satan any day.
Better than the slave owning cloud magician that has some f***ed up fetishes.

I've always been personally fascinated by the parallels between the story of Prometheus and the story of the serpent. Prometheus steals fire (knowledge) from the gods and brings it to man, and and is punished eternally by the gods, but revered by men. The serpent brings Eve to the tree of knowledge, encourages her to eat from it, and god casts Adam and Eve from the garden and punishes Eve with painful childbirth, the serpent is reviled by both god and men, but men revere the god who casts them out for committing a sin they couldn't possibly have known they were committing until after eating the fruit, in what must be the ultimate act of making poor use of a gift.

 

[Jainarayan]

A man, nay a person with any self-worth bows to no one, be they God or man.

I freely admit it's taken me some time to dump that baggage. As a Christian I knelt, bowed my head and genuflected, as a Hindu I prostrated and bowed my head. Until recently when doing my hammer donning prayers I'd get down on one knee with my fist over my heart. But I was getting the feeling Thor was probably and thinking "I wish he'd get up!" There's some discussion around about whether the Norse bowed or prostrated at times. If they saw the Gods, ancestors, wights as our kin I don't think they would make themselves subservient. Would anyone bow to their grandmother or grandfather? It's an Indian custom, but we're not Indian.

 

[ether-ore]

As a gay man, I don't argue with homophobes (who are usually conservative or of abrahamic worldview, let's be real) for various reasons.

Firstly, I can't control what others think. Frankly what others think is none of my business and out of my control. Trying to change people, even if they're being blatantly ignorant, is only going to end up with me losing energy and time.

Secondly, in a zealot's debate, to be blunt, that's not MY god. Those aren't MY rules. Jews can refuse pork as long as they don't look to force everyone else to give up bacon. You can follow your own rules in The US, but the only ones we all must follow are the American laws which are meant to have no ill will nor preference to anything associated with God, spirit or religion.

If in your culture, you believe a man is dishonorable for marrying a man, whatever. I'm not of that worldview though. Your sky god, honestly, doesn't mean anything to me, like how my gods mean little to you. Just like how I can't control others' ignorance, they can't control my love.

I don't waste my time with people converting me because neither of us has control over the other.

As a Christian, I have to say, I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. It would indeed be a waste of your time to argue over the rightness or wrongness of your lifestyle with someone like myself who sees the world much differently. I likewise do not feel the need or desire to interact with homosexuals on any level. We can live in the same country, protected by the same laws, while living in different worlds. You stay in your world and I'll stay in mine. You don't come to me for any reason that requires me to support your lifestyle, and I won't bother you.

 

[JoStories]

As a Christian, I have to say, I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. It would indeed be a waste of your time to argue over the rightness or wrongness of your lifestyle with someone like myself who sees the world much differently. I likewise do not feel the need or desire to interact with homosexuals on any level. We can live in the same country, protected by the same laws, while living in different worlds. You stay in your world and I'll stay in mine. You don't come to me for any reason that requires me to support your lifestyle, and I won't bother you.

Wow. What a narrow, myopic and eternally sad outlook on life. You only speak to and interact with people who view life from your own small, bigoted world that is but a sad example of how wrong your faith is and how it doesn't even come close to what Christ taught. You are Paulian and a bad example of even that. Pathetic, really.

 

[ether-ore]

Wow. What a narrow, myopic and eternally sad outlook on life. You only speak to and interact with people who view life from your own small, bigoted world that is but a sad example of how wrong your faith is and how it doesn't even come close to what Christ taught. You are Paulian and a bad example of even that. Pathetic, really.

Huh? What? You are arguing with someone you disagree with? If from your perspective all the things you say are true, the question is (based on the op), why should either one of us care? Are you not content with your own world that you feel the need to comment on mine? Will you insist (based on the tenor of what you have said) on encroaching on a world that you are not a part of? The op stated that he did not want to waste time on people he disagreed with. All I have done is return the sentiment.

 

[Marisa]

As a Christian, I have to say, I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. It would indeed be a waste of your time to argue over the rightness or wrongness of your lifestyle with someone like myself who sees the world much differently. I likewise do not feel the need or desire to interact with homosexuals on any level. We can live in the same country, protected by the same laws, while living in different worlds. You stay in your world and I'll stay in mine. You don't come to me for any reason that requires me to support your lifestyle, and I won't bother you.

That must be exactly Jesus meant:
Mark 12, 28:34 New International Version (NIV)
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,”answered Jesus,“is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”

32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him,“You are not far from the kingdom of God.”And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

As a gay man, I don't argue with homophobes (who are usually conservative or of abrahamic worldview, let's be real) for various reasons.

Firstly, I can't control what others think. Frankly what others think is none of my business and out of my control. Trying to change people, even if they're being blatantly ignorant, is only going to end up with me losing energy and time.

Secondly, in a zealot's debate, to be blunt, that's not MY god. Those aren't MY rules. Jews can refuse pork as long as they don't look to force everyone else to give up bacon. You can follow your own rules in The US, but the only ones we all must follow are the American laws which are meant to have no ill will nor preference to anything associated with God, spirit or religion.

If in your culture, you believe a man is dishonorable for marrying a man, whatever. I'm not of that worldview though. Your sky god, honestly, doesn't mean anything to me, like how my gods mean little to you. Just like how I can't control others' ignorance, they can't control my love.

I don't waste my time with people converting me because neither of us has control over the other.

As a Christian I never have though it my place to tell people they are wrong for being gay. My wife was married once before she met me. Her first marriage was a bad one. In God word our marriage is a sin yet God has blessed it. We are now under the law of grace.

 

[ether-ore]

That must be exactly Jesus meant:
Mark 12, 28:34New International Version (NIV)
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,”answered Jesus,“is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”

32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him,“You are not far from the kingdom of God.”And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

So, based on this quote, are we to assume that the whole of the rest of scripture becomes irrelevant? What you have quoted here is true, but I interpret loving my neighbor as caring about his/her eternal welfare. If they don't want to hear it, then I'll say ok, and leave them alone to reside in their own little world. Aside from the passage you quoted, there are other passages which suggest that loving God (and one's neighbor, by the way) is to keep God's commandments, one of which is to refrain from homosexual activity. Now, if homosexuals reject that commandment, fine... I'll leave them to it. I'll be cordial should I meet one. But, I would consider myself going against God's will to support that lifestyle.

 

[JoStories]

Huh? What? You are arguing with someone you disagree with? If from your perspective all the things you say are true, the question is (based on the op), why should either one of us care? Are you not content with your own world that you feel the need to comment on mine? Will you insist (based on the tenor of what you have said) on encroaching on a world that you are not a part of? The op stated that he did not want to waste time on people he disagreed with. All I have done is return the sentiment.

How on earth do you know I am not a 'part of your world'? The moment you only associate with people with whom you agree, you limit your outlook on life. And how on earth do you know what 'my own world' is? You presume much here. VERY much. People who believe as you do are so incredibly small minded that it simply is beyond my comprehension to understand you. I like to know and understand people of all types of opinions because, quite frankly, how do you know you are right? DO you have proof of your beliefs? No, you don't. You have belief, end of story. As do I. So stick to your small and myopic world. I truly feel pity for you.

 

[Marisa]

So, based on this quote, are we to assume that the whole of the rest of scripture becomes irrelevant? What you have quoted here is true, but I interpret loving my neighbor as caring about his/her eternal welfare. If they don't want to hear it, then I'll say ok, and leave them alone to reside in their own little world. Aside from the passage you quoted, there are other passages which suggest that loving God (and one's neighbor, by the way) is to keep God's commandments, one of which is to refrain from homosexual activity. Now, if homosexuals reject that commandment, fine... I'll leave them to it. I'll be cordial should I meet one. But, I would consider myself going against God's will to support that lifestyle.

That's the thing about the bible, eh? So many contradictions. For whatever kind of person you are or choose to be, there's a bible passage that validates you.





ETA: Here's another one of my favorites. I like to give the whole paragraph when I'm quoting cuz I feel it gives context clues that just a line or two completely miss.
Matthew 7 New International Version (NIV)
Judging Others
7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

 

[JoStories]

So, based on this quote, are we to assume that the whole of the rest of scripture becomes irrelevant? What you have quoted here is true, but I interpret loving my neighbor as caring about his/her eternal welfare. If they don't want to hear it, then I'll say ok, and leave them alone to reside in their own little world. Aside from the passage you quoted, there are other passages which suggest that loving God (and one's neighbor, by the way) is to keep God's commandments, one of which is to refrain from homosexual activity. Now, if homosexuals reject that commandment, fine... I'll leave them to it. I'll be cordial should I meet one. But, I would consider myself going against God's will to support that lifestyle.

And yet, Jesus came to FULFILL the law. Or do you not read that part as well. See, this is the trouble with people like you. You pick and choose what you want to believe is written. Jesus never once spoke of gays or homosexuality. Paul did but if you follow Paul, you are a Paulian and not a Christian. No one is asking you to 'support' a lifestyle but if you continue to wish to not be involved or spread the word of your God, you are not following the laws Christ set down. There is no commandment against homosexuality, btw, there is a verse that speaks of men lying with men. That is all. Nothing more. IF you truly think that is all there is to being homosexual, your world is so small as it be a pale version of the truth.

 

[JoStories]

As a Christian I never have though it my place to tell people they are wrong for being gay. My wife was married once before she met me. Her first marriage was a bad one. In God word our marriage is a sin yet God has blessed it. We are now under the law of grace.

Hello there Ben. Nice to see you here my dear grandson. How are you and how have things been? Anyway, I agree with you. One is NEVER ever to judge another based on their life. That is what Christ taught and too many alleged 'christians' have no clue about what Jesus actually taught.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

Hello there Ben. Nice to see you here my dear grandson. How are you and how have things been? Anyway, I agree with you. One is NEVER ever to judge another based on their life. That is what Christ taught and too many alleged 'christians' have no clue about what Jesus actually taught.

Hey Jo. I was surprised to see you on here lol. I got kicked off Nora board so for a while I did not post on boards much. I was trying to add proboard to my tablet when they sent me on here. I am doing good. I moved with my wife. I don't work now cause I got fibromyalgia. Other then that I am good and you?

 

[ether-ore]

How on earth do you know I am not a 'part of your world'? The moment you only associate with people with whom you agree, you limit your outlook on life. And how on earth do you know what 'my own world' is? You presume much here. VERY much. People who believe as you do are so incredibly small minded that it simply is beyond my comprehension to understand you. I like to know and understand people of all types of opinions because, quite frankly, how do you know you are right? DO you have proof of your beliefs? No, you don't. You have belief, end of story. As do I. So stick to your small and myopic world. I truly feel pity for you.

k ... I never said that I only associate with people with whom I agree, that was the sentiment expressed by the op. I associate with many people with whom I disagree, even socialists. I simply do not care to associate (in terms of support) with a lifestyle I believe to be wrong. You are correct. It is my belief... mine... I own it. To answer your question. I know as much about your world as you have posted here sufficient to understand that you think little of me. So, I should go over to a corner and cry? If we never meet and developed a friendship... well... I just couldn't bear it.

 

[JoStories]

k ... I never said that I only associate with people with whom I agree, that was the sentiment expressed by the op. I associate with many people with whom I disagree, even socialists. I simply do not care to associate (in terms of support) with a lifestyle I believe to be wrong. You are correct. It is my belief... mine... I own it. To answer your question. I know as much about your world as you have posted here sufficient to understand that you think little of me. So, I should go over to a corner and cry? If we never meet and developed a friendship... well... I just couldn't bear it.

I think little of you? Based on what do you make the assumption? I have really not seen that much of you here and only been posting with you a very short time. I respect and support all faiths. ALL. I have no issue with you being Christian and applaud that it works for you. I am a FNP, and a PhD theologist who tries incorporate spirituality into all nursing practice, no matter what faith. Tell me, what do you think of people; alleged nurses, who refuse to care for a woman who happens to be transgender just because she is transgender?? For me that is a serious breach of the ethical codes we nurses have to adhere to. Would you refuse based on your faith? And if you would, shame on you. How dare you judge? You know nothing of me Ether-ore. Nothing.

 

[JoStories]

Hey Jo. I was surprised to see you on here lol. I got kicked off Nora board so for a while I did not post on boards much. I was trying to add proboard to my tablet when they sent me on here. I am doing good. I moved with my wife. I don't work now cause I got fibromyalgia. Other then that I am good and you?

Good. retired and loving every minute of that. Taking care of Mom and my home for the most part. I have been here for months now and its a great board. Very few here will be rude to you. There are some who are more ...how shall I say?....strong in their opinions but most here are great people whom I really like. Hang in here sweetie. Its a good place.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

Good. retired and loving every minute of that. Taking care of Mom and my home for the most part. I have been here for months now and its a great board. Very few here will be rude to you. There are some who are more ...how shall I say?....strong in their opinions but most here are great people whom I really like. Hang in here sweetie. Its a good place.

It seems like it. I am trying to get used to this new style format. I am trying to join a bunch of boards in here.

 

[ether-ore]

I think little of you? Based on what do you make the assumption? I have really not seen that much of you here and only been posting with you a very short time. I respect and support all faiths. ALL. I have no issue with you being Christian and applaud that it works for you. I am a FNP, and a PhD theologist who tries incorporate spirituality into all nursing practice, no matter what faith. Tell me, what do you think of people; alleged nurses, who refuse to care for a woman who happens to be transgender just because she is transgender?? For me that is a serious breach of the ethical codes we nurses have to adhere to. Would you refuse based on your faith? And if you would, shame on you. How dare you judge? You know nothing of me Ether-ore. Nothing.

I make the assumption based on these remarks: "Wow. What a narrow, myopic and eternally sad outlook on life. You only speak to and interact with people who view life from your own small, bigoted world that is but a sad example of how wrong your faith is and how it doesn't even come close to what Christ taught. You are Paulian and a bad example of even that. Pathetic, really."
It doesn't bother me, but I acknowledge that they are statements of contempt. I could really care less about your PhD. That indicates no badge of authority for me. That you think that your degree in theology has any merit... I'll add that to the several thousand extant denominations of Christianity. I do admire your desire to be ethical in your medical practice. I have no problem with your choices. I am not in a field where I am faced with such decisions. But to answer your question; it would depend on what such a person came to me for. For any general medical condition, I most likely would treat. If it was for the furtherance of transgendered procedures, I would suggest they go somewhere else. What I was referring to were those instances where homosexuals sought out Christian businesses for the sake of causing them problems... the photographer and the baker. In either case, the homosexuals could have found others willing to provide what they wanted, instead, they deliberately picked someone for the sake of a law suit in order to draw attention and to force others to accept and support their lifestyle.

You are partially right. I know very little of you, only what you have written here. That is sufficient.

 

[jojom]

By saying you don't agree with it, you are judging it. By saying you don't support it, you have judged it unworthy of your support.
And who said homosexuals need or want your support and approval any ways?

In defense of elijoe, I don't think he believes homosexuals are looking for his support and approval, as you imply. He's merely expressing his stance on homosexuality, just like you might express your dislike for gun control. Those who are against gun control really don't need your support of approval---and may not even want it---but this doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to express your view without being criticized for it.


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