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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It's saying that those who follow their personal thoughts on the topic of sin over what God says about it, will not only be allowed by God to press on, but He will actually give them a mindset that approves this behavior since they chose to reject Gods thoughts on it.(28)
So, if we reject God, rather than trying to steer us back in the right path, he gives us the mindset to keep on the path away from him, and then he'll punish us for walking off of that path even though he gave us the mindset that made it seem walking away from his path was the correct choice?
Go made us to walk a certain walk, and what makes that walk unique is our individual personalities and traits.
When I was born, my life was given to God. I walked that path, and walking that path made me miserable, depressed, and suicidal. I abandoned that path, with no remorse or regrets, and my life has gotten so much better. It's even been years since I have thought about killing myself. The war inside my head became a skirmish, I have grown significantly in knowledge and wisdom, and being free to be me is the greatest step I have ever taken.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Who is "we" here? Where I live, health care is regarded as a right.
America. Many here do consider it something that should be a right, but there are many who believe you should have afford health care to receive it.
Romantic notions of noble savages are apt to be misleading.
It's not romanticizing them. Rather, it's asking the question are we really any more "civilized?" What is it that makes us "civil?"
 

ether-ore

Active Member
I just want to respond to a couple of things I've read in the dialog here. First there was a comment stating:
"It sickens me to be honest that people still feel that God would create them in such a way and then loathe them for it."... and:
"God did not create to hop from one foot to the other trying to suppress who and what you really are."
My response will not satisfy most in here I suppose, but I offer it as food for thought. It is my belief that there is a part of us that was not created by God... that has always existed. Were this not the case then the sentiments of the items quoted above would be true. But, if what I believe is true, then, we are an eternal intelligence... granted spirit birth by God and then sent to this earth to gain a physical body. This body has appetites along with genetic predispositions which our spiritual intelligence is tasked with overcoming and controlling according to God's laws. Who one really is then is an eternal intelligence that was not created and as a consequence, has free agency to choose to overcome the appetites of the flesh.

Also...

"Romans comes to you from Paul, making you a Paulian and not a Christian. If you will note, Christ never speaks of homosexuality EVER. Only Paul does that."

I find it extremely arrogant and presumptuous that someone of another 'faith' outside of Christianity would have the nerve to tell a Christian how to parse their own scriptures and to tell them what they mean. Just an observation.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I find it extremely arrogant and presumptuous that someone of another 'faith' outside of Christianity would have the nerve to tell a Christian how to parse their own scriptures and to tell them what they mean. Just an observation.
Paul did not teach the peace, love, and forgiveness that Jesus did. The two are very distinctively different.
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
If you'll notice from this thread, every single one of those straight people are thumping a 2,000 year old book that also says bats are birds and rabbits chew cud.

But in society, Marisa, many of those same individuals who believe in that same 2,000 year old book are also LGBT or LGBT-affirming. As of yesterday, I'm one of them.
 

ether-ore

Active Member
Paul did not teach the peace, love, and forgiveness that Jesus did. The two are very distinctively different.

You are making an invalid assumption that Paul is not speaking concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ. A further mistake you are making is that one does not parse and interpret scripture the way that you seem to think that it can be. Any part of scripture must inform all other parts. Another thing that you do not seem to understand is that the God of the Old Testament (Jehovah) and Jesus Christ are one and the same being. Christ did indeed teach peace and love and forgiveness, but He also taught that repentance was necessary and that there would be a day of judgment. There are a plethora of other things that you are leaving out of your 'analysis'. I understand that you want to find things in scripture that fit your narrative and justify whatever lifestyle you have, but I'm sorry... in Christianity, that is not the way it works. It may work that way in Buddhism, but in Christianity (at least my particular brand of it) the spirit of man has this one shot at learning to act rather than to be acted upon (by the flesh) in hopes that the atonement of Jesus Christ will have effect in his life. And that is the other thing... Christ died for our sins. That would not make any sense if any behavior were acceptable and all that mattered were peace, love and forgiveness. Christ's atonement grants that all will be resurrected just prior to judgment day, but His forgiveness will only apply to those that repent and live according to His commandments.
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
As a bisexual woman, I have to ask. What is your point here? I agree of course but I also am a Buddhist who believes in God. I say the Christian homophobes can stew in their own juice and live with their bigotry. So what exactly are you asking or attempting to discuss here??

What? A Western Buddhist who believes in God?
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
America. Many here do consider it something that should be a right, but there are many who believe you should have afford health care to receive it.

It's not romanticizing them. Rather, it's asking the question are we really any more "civilized?" What is it that makes us "civil?"
Current advanced societies have renounced slavery, torture, limiting compassion to one's own family or tribe, autocracy etc. These were all taken for granted until distressingly recent times. Some societies still haven't caught up.

America is a strange case. It's advance seems slow, with occasional backsliding.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
But in society, Marisa, many of those same individuals who believe in that same 2,000 year old book are also LGBT or LGBT-affirming. As of yesterday, I'm one of them.
I know, I've said as much in this thread. But the ones here, in this thread, are not. I've no beef with religion, except when it's used as a bludgeon against other people.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Current advanced societies have renounced slavery, torture, limiting compassion to one's own family or tribe, autocracy etc. These were all taken for granted until distressingly recent times. Some societies still haven't caught up.
Hershey, Mars, and Nestle (a Swedish company) all purchase chocolate that comes from child slave labor. America calls its torture program "enhanced interrogation." And throughout the West there are plenty of examples of xenophobia.
 
I was. It's presumptuous to assume I didn't fully grasp it because my results varied.

For me, it did. It lead to an abundance of self-hated and many tear-filled nights praying and pleading with god to make things better. Misery and longing for death was all I really ever had walking that path.

It wouldn't change my mind or perspective. That part of me, the old me, is dying, nearly dead, and beyond the point of resuscitation.

All I can say is maybe you were just looking down for your problems instead of looking up. Kinda like how you love your dog wholeheartedly, you've gotta do that with God and it makes a physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual difference.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
All I can say is maybe you were just looking down for your problems instead of looking up. Kinda like how you love your dog wholeheartedly, you've gotta do that with God and it makes a physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual difference.
The only difference it made was that I was tormented. The church I attended held me in very high regard, and considered me a good example of what the ideal Christian teen should be like. I knew the Bible, I did everything I was supposed to, I had the close personal relationship with Jesus Christ, received the Holy Ghost, and possessed a very strong faith. But inside I was tormented. Being assigned male at birth, I knew I was supposed to be and act like one of the guys, and I knew the Bible condemned men being wearing women's clothing and acting like men, and my depression only worsened despite my faith God would make things better. I had attractions towards women, but I also had attractions towards men, and I knew the Bible condemned homosexuality, and my depression only worsened despite my faith God would make things better. I tried to prove I was a man and could be a man, but my depression worsened because I eventually hit a point where I knew I was lying to myself and I was only going through the motions with no sincerity or desire. Looking at a woman and thinking she was attractive was bad enough, because he who looks upon a woman with lust has committed adultery with her in his heart, but looking at men was shameful knowing those attractions were sinful. I reached a point where I just wanted to die so my misery would come to an end.
Add that on top of all the other difficulties I had growing up, and eventually I began to question my faith. Questions lead to doubts. I tried so hard to hold on to my faith, I clung on desperately, I prayed and prayed, but, in the end, my faith was destroyed and I emerged stronger, my depression has not been nearly as bad, and I am no longer burdened by guilt, shame, and sin. And step-by-step I eventually even reached a point where death is not desired to end the pain, but would cut short the potential of things to come.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
You are making an invalid assumption that Paul is not speaking concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ. A further mistake you are making is that one does not parse and interpret scripture the way that you seem to think that it can be. Any part of scripture must inform all other parts. Another thing that you do not seem to understand is that the God of the Old Testament (Jehovah) and Jesus Christ are one and the same being. Christ did indeed teach peace and love and forgiveness, but He also taught that repentance was necessary and that there would be a day of judgment. There are a plethora of other things that you are leaving out of your 'analysis'. I understand that you want to find things in scripture that fit your narrative and justify whatever lifestyle you have, but I'm sorry... in Christianity, that is not the way it works. It may work that way in Buddhism, but in Christianity (at least my particular brand of it) the spirit of man has this one shot at learning to act rather than to be acted upon (by the flesh) in hopes that the atonement of Jesus Christ will have effect in his life. And that is the other thing... Christ died for our sins. That would not make any sense if any behavior were acceptable and all that mattered were peace, love and forgiveness. Christ's atonement grants that all will be resurrected just prior to judgment day, but His forgiveness will only apply to those that repent and live according to His commandments.
OK. First of all, let's get something straight. I am not ranting. If you read something into my post that seems to you to be ranting, that is entirely on you sir. I assure you, I am merely responding from my own POV. I am passionate about some topics and this is one but I don't rant very often. In fact, if you ask other posters, they will tell you that in general, I am very kind to everyone unless they are unkind to me.
Now, regarding the above. So if what you say is true, why are Jews not Christian then? They state that the Messiah and I agree, of the OT, or Tanahk, is NOT Jesus Christ. There are several reasons for this of course. First of all, the Messiah must come of the house of David, which Mary was not one of. There are other reasons as well but you get the idea. If one were to seriously read Paul and what he allegedly wrote, one would clearly note that the tone of the books is vastly different than that of what is attributed to Jesus. Christ never demeaned women or had them in a lesser role, for one. Nor did he state they had to be silent, cover their heads, etc. Only Paul does that and Paul never met Jesus.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
What? A Western Buddhist who believes in God?
Well, yes. Is there something you find wrong with that? Not all Buddhists are atheists. I know some are but I have had too many experiences to make me believe in God. Have you never encountered one DJ? If not, then well met gentle sir or madame. I hate not knowing what gender someone is. I never get that right!! LOL.
 
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JoStories

Well-Known Member
I just want to respond to a couple of things I've read in the dialog here. First there was a comment stating:
"It sickens me to be honest that people still feel that God would create them in such a way and then loathe them for it."... and:
"God did not create to hop from one foot to the other trying to suppress who and what you really are."
My response will not satisfy most in here I suppose, but I offer it as food for thought. It is my belief that there is a part of us that was not created by God... that has always existed. Were this not the case then the sentiments of the items quoted above would be true. But, if what I believe is true, then, we are an eternal intelligence... granted spirit birth by God and then sent to this earth to gain a physical body. This body has appetites along with genetic predispositions which our spiritual intelligence is tasked with overcoming and controlling according to God's laws. Who one really is then is an eternal intelligence that was not created and as a consequence, has free agency to choose to overcome the appetites of the flesh.

Also...

"Romans comes to you from Paul, making you a Paulian and not a Christian. If you will note, Christ never speaks of homosexuality EVER. Only Paul does that."

I find it extremely arrogant and presumptuous that someone of another 'faith' outside of Christianity would have the nerve to tell a Christian how to parse their own scriptures and to tell them what they mean. Just an observation.
Why is it "arrogant and presumptuous"? Do people not of your faith have no right to read and interpret them? Do you have some exclusive right to the Bible that none other can read it? That, sir, is presumptuous.
So you think there is a part of us not created by God. That runs entirely contrary to your Bible you realize. "From dust I created you and to dust you shall return". Do you not believe in your own Bible here? I find it interesting that you think that we have a "spiritual intelligence". That is a very Buddhist POV, and one I obviously agree with. The part we disagree about is overcoming God's laws. The way I see that is that God sends us here, as you say, and then sets up to trying to live up to these rules all the while trying to make us deny who we are. That is why I find the God you believe in so monstrous. God, IMO, is loving and kind. A spiritual entity that has no desire to see us do anything but succeed. That success takes many lifetimes, however. Learning is not an easy process. As for finding someone who is gay but denies that of themselves, I will not change my mind. It is sad to me and I do loathe that mindset. Camps set up to 'browbeat' being gay out of someone when the truth is being gay is what they were born to be. That sickens me. If that seems like ranting sir, so, too, do your diatribes. I wish you peace on your journey because honestly, I don;t see a lot of peace in what you post. Namaste.
 

ether-ore

Active Member
So if what you say is true, why are Jews not Christian then? They state that the Messiah and I agree, of the OT, or Tanahk, is NOT Jesus Christ. There are several reasons for this of course. First of all, the Messiah must come of the house of David, which Mary was not one of. There are other reasons as well but you get the idea. If one were to seriously read Paul and what he allegedly wrote, one would clearly note that the tone of the books is vastly different than that of what is attributed to Jesus. Christ never demeaned women or had them in a lesser role, for one. Nor did he state they had to be silent, cover their heads, etc. Only Paul does that and Paul never met Jesus.
The Jews are not Christian because, in using their agency, they choose not to be. Of course they will deny that Jehovah and Jesus Christ are not the same being. They would necessarily have to wouldn't they? Christ, in the New Testament, identified Himself as "I AM" for which the Jews wanted to stone Him because that was the same as calling Himself God; the same term Jehovah gave to Moses. In terms of Christ being from the house of David, two disparate genealogies are given in the New Testament, one for Joseph and one for Mary. Both show a lineage down from David. So I have a different reading than you do.

Paul did meet Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus where he received his commission. Again, you have a different reading of the scriptures than do I. But I can understand. You're focused on Paul's comments toward women concerning the culture in which they lived... which do not apply today. But that aside, The gospel as presented by Paul in pursuant to the commission which he had as an apostle is every bit the gospel of Jesus Christ... the tone you are so concerned with notwithstanding. As I said before, one has to take Christian scripture as a whole, where all that is written informs all else. One cannot cherry pick... or 'proof text' as we call it, so as to support a pre-selected position.
 
The only difference it made was that I was tormented. The church I attended held me in very high regard, and considered me a good example of what the ideal Christian teen should be like. I knew the Bible, I did everything I was supposed to, I had the close personal relationship with Jesus Christ, received the Holy Ghost, and possessed a very strong faith. But inside I was tormented. Being assigned male at birth, I knew I was supposed to be and act like one of the guys, and I knew the Bible condemned men being wearing women's clothing and acting like men, and my depression only worsened despite my faith God would make things better. I had attractions towards women, but I also had attractions towards men, and I knew the Bible condemned homosexuality, and my depression only worsened despite my faith God would make things better. I tried to prove I was a man and could be a man, but my depression worsened because I eventually hit a point where I knew I was lying to myself and I was only going through the motions with no sincerity or desire. Looking at a woman and thinking she was attractive was bad enough, because he who looks upon a woman with lust has committed adultery with her in his heart, but looking at men was shameful knowing those attractions were sinful. I reached a point where I just wanted to die so my misery would come to an end.
Add that on top of all the other difficulties I had growing up, and eventually I began to question my faith. Questions lead to doubts. I tried so hard to hold on to my faith, I clung on desperately, I prayed and prayed, but, in the end, my faith was destroyed and I emerged stronger, my depression has not been nearly as bad, and I am no longer burdened by guilt, shame, and sin. And step-by-step I eventually even reached a point where death is not desired to end the pain, but would cut short the potential of things to come.

You've gotta realize that if you were feeling like this on your wall with God, that there were most definitely other spiritual forces around there that aren't playing in Gods side. Don't fall for the gay trap because it's a ****ty trap, I'll tell you that. It's full of lust and it's tough (to break out of especially). I'm really not trying to talk down or downplay your experience, but a useful tool I've become a fan of lately is reframing. If you're looking at God one way and it's not working...trust me it's not God doing it. Maybe you're just looking at a God the wrong way.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
You've gotta realize that if you were feeling like this on your wall with God, that there were most definitely other spiritual forces around there that aren't playing in Gods side. Don't fall for the gay trap because it's a ****ty trap, I'll tell you that. It's full of lust and it's tough (to break out of especially). I'm really not trying to talk down or downplay your experience, but a useful tool I've become a fan of lately is reframing. If you're looking at God one way and it's not working...trust me it's not God doing it. Maybe you're just looking at a God the wrong way.
No matter how much you want to think otherwise, or think I wasn't doing something right, I was miserable as a Christian. The "****ty trap" isn't embracing myself and being me, it was being stuck in a world driven by an ideology that pushed me to yearn for death, that left me with no sense of direction, just going through with the motions, and placing in faith if a God whose book condemned me just for being.
 
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