Just to be clear, the USA Today Op-Ed
is, in my opinion, an admirable reflection of my position on the current conflict.
is, in my opinion, an admirable reflection of my position on the current conflict.
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Gaza-Israel: for the record
- Thread starter Jayhawker Soule
- Start date
Heyo
Veteran Member
That's a more nuanced statement than your poll the other day. Only condemning one side (even if the statement itself is true) always smacks of partisanship. I don't have sympathies for either side, there are no "good guys" in this conflict.
And briefly criticizing one side while damning the other smacks as antisemitic verbal window dressing. Many of us find ourselves deeply hurt in the face of "yes but" reactions to the recent pogrom. Hence the plea voiced by Rabbi Brous:
"My humble ask is that people give a damn when we die."
The aim of the poll was anything but nuance. Rather, it sought to affirm what is being persistently marginalized.
For what it's worth, within my (Jewish) community the focus of my comments has been "Palestinian lives matter."
Sadly, there are millions of "good guys" in this conflict.
Heyo
Veteran Member
Sadly they are minorities, on both sides. Both sides have voted for belligerent leaders.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
No....... No Palestinian teenagers or young Palestinians have ever voted for any leadership at all.
I might be wrong but Hamas has not allowed any elections since it gained power over ten years ago.
Some years ago I remember seeing a video of Hamas warriors dragging chained Palestinians through the streets by mortorbike, so it wasn't a good idea to speak out against them.
And so there are about 2 million Palestinian civilian refugees who cannot take refuge from the war, all needing food, water, medicine, warmth, safety and security.
Bombing refugee centers is even worse in my opinion. Both Israel and Gaza are being run by barbaric governments. Its high time that both of them go and their officials prosecuted for terrorism and war crimes respectively.
Heyo
Veteran Member
The sins of the fathers ...
And we don't know how many would.
I see no way the international community/UN could legally intervene. Hamas is the de facto representative of the Palestinian people and unless the Palestinians get rid of Hamas we have to negotiate with them and they are not willing to have UN troops in Palestine - nor does Israel.
The West has a tragic record of "helping" people who didn't ask for it.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
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Then we need to worry about our own Dads.
If in doubt.......... ?
But if the Palestinians call for the World's help.......?
It does look as if the theme of your post might suggest that many Palestinian civilian refugees are 'the enemy'?
Heyo
Veteran Member
The problem is that "the Palestinians" don't have a legal voice except Hamas. You may not like Hamas but on the international political stage they are "the Palestinians", the only entity the UN can converse with. Disregarding that would set a precedent that would allow, even demand, that the UN intervenes in every conflict, nullifying all local authority. It would make the UN the global government and police.
I'm not categorically against a global government, it would help many of our problems but such a government has to formed legally not by self declaration.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Everybody has a 'legal' voice, all voices have legal value, and so do millions of frightened, hungry, people trying to take refuge from death and injury. Most of the World recognises the Palestinian refugee voices.
The UN has a right to take notice of any situation where it identifies millions of people running for their lives, especially when they cannot run anywhere. I'm actually beginning to think that Israel does not care about the lives of innocent people ......... it now looks as if they are now being terrorised as well. Israel has not got a clean slate in connection with terrorism itself; a friend of mine was a soldier in Palestine nearly eighty years ago and could tell many stories about terrorism and some of the terrorist leaders became respected government officials later on, you know.
So people need to start talking about peace and the survival of refugees. A past pop star who grew up in the Troubles of Northern Ireland was invited on to the very cynical television show 'Have I got News for you?' I expect the producers thought that he would suffer from the usual ragging that many invitees experienced. This is what he said about working to end hate filled conflicts.:-
Feargal Sharkey praised for ‘powerful’ Israel-Palestine speech on Have I Got News for You
Feargal Sharkey is being praised for his impassioned speech about the Israel-Palestine conflict during an appearance on Have I Got News For You.
The singer, who is the former lead singer of “Teenage Kicks” punk band The Undertones, was a guest on the BBC panel show on Friday (3 November) alongside the episode’s host Jo Brand.
When discussion turned to the current situation in Gaza, Brand asked “A Good Heart” singer and activist Sharkey, 65, if “partition is a good idea”. She asked for his view in particular due to his experiences of growing up in Derry both during the Troubles and following the Good Friday Agreement, the latter which put an end to violence in Northern Ireland after being signed in 1998.
Sharkey replied: “This is the 25th-anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement. For 25 years, the people of Northern Ireland have been able to prosper and grow and blossom and have discovered this thing peace is a very delicate, beautiful little flower that needs nurturing and caressing and supporting.
“I do wish the people of Gaza, and Palestine and Israel get to discover what 25 years of peace, prosperity and diplomacy and democracy looks like. and that those people can blossom,” he continued, adding: “It’d be a much more confident and much brighter future for everyone involved.”
What about innocent people who played
no roll in attacks by Hamas or Israel?
Heyo
Veteran Member
If they played no roll, have they been part of the conflict?
They're doing the lion's share of the dying.
Heyo
Veteran Member
The Northern Ireland conflict is a good example of how such conflicts can be ended. The UN marches in with massive troops and forces a peace agreement on the parties. Wait - that was not how that conflict ended.
Neither Israel nor Hamas have asked for help to end the conflict. (Though both are constantly begging for help and sympathy for their side.) I'm not even aware of any NGO in either Palestine or Israel that is asking for intervention to end the conflict. You can't force peace between people who don't want it.
Heyo
Veteran Member
So they have a roll, they are victims. Yes, I wasn't referring to the innocent victims when I said that there are no good guys, only to the perpetrators and their enablers, i.e. people who voted for Hamas or Likud.
It is a tragedy when innocent people have to die. But when we start sending UN troops into the US to exterminate bad cops who shoot innocent people, do you think that would help?
I'll respond to that non sequitur with another....
Deadly Israel strike on Gaza ambulance convoy sparks condemnation
An Israeli strike on a Gaza ambulance convoy has killed 15 people, Palestinian medics said Saturday, spurring concerns for health workers' safety as Israel accused Hamas of using the vehicles to transport fighters.Hamas denied that its fighters had been inside the vehicles, which it said were...
possible that one of the health car workers or
patients might be in Hamas?
Israel has killed 9,200 so far.
Hamas killed 1,400.
Current kill ratio: 6.6
Heyo
Veteran Member
I think I've already said that there are "no good guys" among the conflicting parties.I'll respond to that non sequitur with another....
Ambulances should be bombed because it's
Deadly Israel strike on Gaza ambulance convoy sparks condemnation
An Israeli strike on a Gaza ambulance convoy has killed 15 people, Palestinian medics said Saturday, spurring concerns for health workers' safety as Israel accused Hamas of using the vehicles to transport fighters.Hamas denied that its fighters had been inside the vehicles, which it said were...news.yahoo.com
possible that one of the health car workers or
patients might be in Hamas?
Israel has killed 9,200 so far.
Hamas killed 1,400.
Current kill ratio: 6.6
And I take war reports with a grain of salt. I neither trust Israel nor Hamas to respect Ambulances.
Heyo
Veteran Member
Is it a non sequitur, though? What are you arguing for? International intervention because innocent people die? If that's it then my proposal isn't that non sequitur.
A non sequitur isn't an argument.
However, to your question....
International intervention doesn't look to be useful.
USA's power & continued support for Israel's oppression
& murder of Palestinians would mean the status quo.
Heyo
Veteran Member
And what would you suggest as a best way of action for your country and the international community?