Gaza-Israel: for the record

[Bthoth]

I've heard it too. But it's been circumspect, ie, criticizing
the results of oppression, but not criticizing Israel itself.
I hope this is changing.

3 days ago — Within families and congregations, on campuses, at protests and online, fissures within Jewish communities are deepening.

To be tired of it isn't useful if they
still tolerate human rights violations
by an ally.

The Statue of Liberty Is the Setting for an Israel-Hamas War Protest​

Protests over the war have been organized almost daily across the United States.

"Stupid" would depend upon their goals.
In another post I covered how it could
be the opposite.
This might not be obvious because Hamas
has different values about sacrificing innocent
lives for political goals.

I cannot support such atrocity. No matter the side.

Not much chance while these children see
Israel killing their family members recklessly
in pursuit (ostensibly) of Hamas.
Israel teaches hate & vengeance to these kids
& to their own.

I have known that for almost half a century.

Aye.

 

[Bthoth]

We were discussing Gaza, not Judea and Samaria, which is the proper name for what you call the "West Bank".

Old biblical terms for the west bank are irrelevant. The human beings are more important than israel itself.

Hamas control there, it only controls Gaza.

Apartheid created the monsters called HAMAS

The evidence is clear that Israel has not been operating in Gaza from 2009 until now.

I understand Israelis just fenced it up, enclosing the concentration camp by land, air and sea completely enclosing the prison.

And the evidence shows repeated Hamas attacks on Israel from Gaza including the most recent one that precipitated this newest conflict.

Likewise, the evidence shows, that the majority in gaza are widows and orphans from the decades of oppression/apartheid.

Even in tanakh, israel is condemned for the oppression.

When you wish to be honest, please let me know.

 

[Revoltingest]

I didn't call Russia stupid though.

Imagine you were in charge of Ukraine just before the war with Russia started. Wouldn't it be stupid to perform a terrorist act against Russia? Wouldn't it be even more stupid if Russia had the US an ally?

Now replace the word 'Ukraine' with 'Gaza strip' and 'Russia' with 'Israel'.

I've already addressed the charge that Hamas
is stupid, ie, that they're not stupid.
Their goals aren't your & my goals, but they
clearly invested much thought, planning, &
resources to achieve theirs.

 

[Koldo]

I've already addressed the charge that Hamas
is stupid, ie, that they're not stupid.
Their goals aren't your & my goals, but they
clearly invested much thought, planning, &
resources to achieve theirs.

Is their goal to lose sovereignty over their territory? Because that's what is about to happen.

 

[Revoltingest]

The Statue of Liberty Is the Setting for an Israel-Hamas War Protest
Protests over the war have been organized almost daily across the United States.

The Statue Of Liberty is a most
appropriate site for protesting.

I cannot support such atrocity. No matter the side.

I understand.
There should be more said than just defending
one side, & criticizing the other. The history,
views, limitations, powers, & motivations of
each side must be considered...even if offensive.
From this understanding, solutions can be crafted.

I have known that for almost half a century.

Too few know it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Is their goal to lose sovereignty over their territory? Because that's what is about to happen.

I see only possible goals. (Hamas hasn't
told me their long term plans.)
- Show Israel for what it is to the world, ie, a brutal oppressor?
- Induce Israel to end the oppression?
- Distract Israel & USA resources from other areas?
- Inspire Muslim countries to join the fray?

 

[Koldo]

I see only possible goals. (Hamas hasn't
told me their long term plans.)
- Show Israel for what it is to the world, ie, a brutal oppressor?

Did it work? I don't think so. Very little has been said about the daily struggles in Gaza, the ones experienced before this war, through the media. And given the number of civilians killed so far, public opinion about Israel seems to remain pretty good.

- Induce Israel to end the oppression?

How exactly?

- Distract Israel & USA resources from other areas?

Such as... ?

- Inspire Muslim countries to join the fray?

Which hasn't worked so far... and why would it?

 

[Revoltingest]

Did it work? I don't think so. Very little has been said about the daily struggles in Gaza, the ones experienced before this war, through the media. And given the number of civilians killed so far, public opinion about Israel seems to remain pretty good.

Cracks are appearing in Israel's ability
to control public discourse in its favor.

How exactly?

I can't say how.
Because I don't see that possible goal succeeding.

Such as... ?

MSN

www.msn.com

Which hasn't worked so far... and why would it?

I don't say which methods will work to achieve
which goals. I only speculate about Hamas's goals.

 

[Koldo]

Cracks are appearing in Israel's ability
to control public discourse in its favor.

I can't say how.
Because I don't see that possible goal succeeding.

MSN

www.msn.com

I don't say which methods will work to achieve
which goals. I only speculate about Hamas's goals.

Obviously I don't deny that Hamas had/has it's goal. I just call the lastest terrorism act chosen to achieve them stupid. If you don't see their goals suceeding, for a reasonable cost, then it was a stupid choice. Losing sovereignity over a massive area is not a reasonable cost to achieve any of those goals.

 

[Revoltingest]

Obviously I don't deny that Hamas had/has it's goal. I just call the lastest terrorism act chosen to achieve them stupid. If you don't see their goals suceeding, for a reasonable cost, then it was a stupid choice. Losing sovereignity over a massive area is not a reasonable cost to achieve any of those goals.

One group's "reasonable cost" is another's "unreasonable cost".

But was Hamas's attack merely "terrorism"?
That's the singular view that Israel & apologists trumpet
because this narrative controls feelings, ie, negative about
Hamas, & positive about Israel.
But there's another view, ie, that Hamas's attack was military,
& included civilians as targets. From this perspective, it would
be a war crime, with terrorist elements. This is the same thing
that Israel is guilty of....& on a far larger scale than Hamas.
BBC has today's Palestinian death toll at 10,300+.

 

[Koldo]

One group's "reasonable cost" is another's "unreasonable cost".

Up to a certain point, sure. On this case though, the cost is not only thousands of their own civilians, but also the loss of sovereignity over a massive part of Hamas' territory to their sworn enemy. This is clearly not a reasonable cost.

But was Hamas's attack merely "terrorism"?
That's the singular view that Israel & apologists trumpet
because this narrative controls feelings, ie, negative about
Hamas, & positive about Israel.
But there's another view, ie, that Hamas's attack was military,
& included civilians as targets. From this perspective, it would
be a war crime, with terrorist elements. This is the same thing
that Israel is guilty of....& on a far larger scale than Hamas.
BBC has today's Palestinian death toll at 10,300+.

It wasn't merely terrorism but it involved terrorism, such as the massacre at the music festival.

 

[Revoltingest]

Up to a certain point, sure. On this case though, the cost is not only thousands of their own civilians, but also the loss of sovereignity over a massive part of Hamas' territory to their sworn enemy. This is clearly not a reasonable cost.

Your view is understandable.
I don't know enuf about Hamas to agree or disagree.

It wasn't merely terrorism but it involved terrorism, such as the massacre at the music festival.

I agree.

 

[Heyo]

How?

They have already occupied part of Palestine, they could play the old divide et impera. Dial down the oppression in the occupied part, let them elect a new government, maybe invite UN observers for that, be the "good cop" in the north while fighting Hamas in the south.

 

[Revoltingest]

Very few, especially on this channel are aware that many of the palestinians in GAZA are US citizens. That is why so many demonstrations all over the US.



If they clash, it would be terrible but it will also change the dynamics of the relationship as the soldiers will not forget as easily as the politicians.

It does seem to be US's obligation to rescue US citizens.
Also to defend them if IDF attacks them or US forces.
I'm wagering that this will go well, rather than make things worse.

 

[Bthoth]

It does seem to be US's obligation to rescue US citizens.
Also to defend them if IDF attacks them or US forces.
I'm wagering that this will go well, rather than make things worse.

I do not want to fight against israel or IDF but the biased need to grow up and put humanity before pride, arrogance and retribution.

Let's hope that none of our special forces have to defend themselves from israel's....... Ignorant Dumb fff's (IDF)

 

[Revoltingest]

I do not want to fight against israel or IDF but the biased need to grow up and put humanity before pride, arrogance and retribution.

Let's hope that none of our special forces have to defend themselves from israel's....... Ignorant Dumb fff's (IDF)

Even a US military vs IDF confrontation
could have benefits exceeding costs, ie,
it could serve as a wake-up call about
pursuing peace being superior to
pursuing vengeance.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

IMO, today's CNN State of the Union interview of Congresswoman Jayapal by Donna Bash was well worth watching. It will be rerun this afternoon.