Geert Wilders on Trial for hate speech - closing argument

[icehorse]

I'm more worried about Christianity, and with reason.

I'm worried about both, I'm slightly more worried about Islam.

 

[Notanumber]

Sure, if prophets are morons with YouTube channels.

Talking of morons and prophets, one well-known name springs to mind that fits that bill.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm worried about both, I'm slightly more worried about Islam.

I don't see why. I wonder where you live.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Love him or hate him, Condell usually makes a lot of specific claims and provides a lot of citations. So those claims ought to stand or fall on their own, correct?

I used to watch his videos. Just a bunch of ranting.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Talking of morons and prophets, one well-known name springs to mind that fits that bill.

I'm sure you think you're clever.

 

[Notanumber]

Double Standards R Us

He talks a lot of sense

He mentions Moroccans in this; they are obviously a problem in his country.

As he says, Sharia Law is not welcome.

 

[icehorse]

I used to watch his videos. Just a bunch of ranting.

Claims should stand or fall of their own merit.

 

[icehorse]

I don't see why. I wonder where you live.

I live in a society that's fairly secular (California), and in general I want to keep secular societies, secular.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I live in a society that's fairly secular (California), and in general I want to keep secular societies, secular.

You live in California and you're terrified of Islam? Seriously? The way you go on about it, you make it sound like you live in the Middle East or Southeast Asia.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I'm more worried about Christianity, and with reason.

And I'd agree that you have reason to be. I hope that doesn't mean that because you believe Christianity is a bigger threat, that Islam isn't a threat. That would be worrying, not to mention confusing.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And I'd agree that you have reason to be. I hope that doesn't mean that because you believe Christianity is a bigger threat, that Islam isn't a threat. That would be worrying, not to mention confusing.

Actually, to better word it, I'm more concerned about right-wing political Christianity rather than just Christianity itself. Right-wing political Islam is a concern, but a much more distant one. Islam or Christianity themselves aren't threats, no.

 

[MD]

Oh, please. Islam has been in Europe for centuries. Europe has always been multicultural and multiracial.

a) Islam is not a culture
b) Islam is not a race

Now that we have got that out of the way, how multi-religious are Pakistan and Bangladesh? How free are Hindus in those countries? How many indigenous faiths remain in Islamic regions?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

a) Islam is not a culture
b) Islam is not a race

Religion is a significant part of a culture. I mentioned "race" because people like to act like Europe has almost always been lily white and homogeneous.

Now that we have got that out of the way, how multi-religious are Pakistan and Bangladesh? How free are Hindus in those countries?

You're going off-topic. The situations in those countries are different subjects, and the problems in those areas are majorly due to the after effects of European colonialism.

How many indigenous faiths remain in Islamic regions?

How many remain in Christian regions?

 

[MD]

Religion is a significant part of a culture. I mentioned "race" because people like to act like Europe has almost always been lily white and homogeneous.

Yes and no. The culture of Pakistan is different from the culture of Morocco. Islam brings it's own culture, which is from Arabia and basically through centuries of imposition, persecution, genocide and war mixes it up with the indigenous culture. If you disagree, I suggest you read some history.

Also you are assuming that everyone thinks Europe was white and lily.

You're going off-topic. The situations in those countries are different subjects, and the problems in those areas are majorly due to the after effects of European colonialism.

No I'm not going off topic, this is part of a larger trend. The problems in these areas are not due to European colonialism, they helped stoke tensions but it still does not count for how the Maghreb, Central Asia and South Asia became purely Muslim. The Mughals, the Safavids, the Abassids, the Ottomans and many other Islamic dynasties weren't guided by Europe to kill non believers. To suggest that is an insult to those who suffered and to those who perpetrated the acts as well, suggesting they were stupid enough to be manipulated by white people.

How many remain in Christian regions?

Now who's going off topic? We are talking about Islamic colonialism here, not Christian. Christianity is declining in the West.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes and no. The culture of Pakistan is different from the culture of Morocco. Islam brings it's own culture, which is from Arabia and basically through centuries of imposition, persecution, genocide and war mixes it up with the indigenous culture. If you disagree, I suggest you read some history.


No I'm not this is part of a larger trend. The problems in these areas are not due to European colonialism, they helped stoke tensions but it still does not count for how the Maghreb, Central Asia and South Asia became purely Muslim. The Mughals, the Safavids, the Abassids, the Ottomans and many other Islamic dynasties weren't guided by Europe to kill non believers. To suggest that is an insult to those who suffered and to those who perpetrated the acts as well, suggesting they were stupid enough to be manipulated by white people.



Now who's going off topic? We are talking about Islamic colonialism here, not Christian. Christianity is declining in the West.

I'm about to dip out of this thread because I've read enough hateful, over-generalizing crap today. It's the same old stuff, from the same people. It's boring.

You're all over the place in this post. First you mention two areas and now you're all over the place and going back millennia. You're going to have to be more specific if you want to have a dialogue. Are we talking about the present day situation or stuff from centuries ago? Because the contexts aren't the same. I also brought up Christianity because the same arguments can be used against it, and on a much larger and bloodier scale.

 

[Parchment]

And which one was aimed at a black man? Yeah, not that one there. The Obama one was taken more seriously because

1. He was the President or President-elect of the time and;
2. Americans have a proven history of forming lynch mobs and stringing up black people because they're black. If it can be proven that the Palin one was racially motivated then I'll agree that the two should have been given equivalent treatment.

And yes, I condemn both. Calling for someone's death is an abuse of free speech in most cases. The Palin one is one of those. It should have been prosecuted but given the overall threat to Palin, it's understandable as to why it wasn't taken as seriously as the Obama one.

According to the Tuskegee institute Lynching Statistics by Year from 1882-1968 there were a total of 1,297 lynchings of whites and 3,445 lynchings of blacks. I'm sure there are some exceptions but considering the ammounts of whites lynched it doesn't seem logical to conclude that every single lynching of a black person was solely motivated by the colour of their skin. The Obama one was investigated as a hate crime simply because he is black but the Sarah Palin one ignored because she is white and a woman, does this bother you at all? You stated you condemned both and I agree, they should be treated equally but they weren't.

 

[MD]

I'm about to dip out of this thread because I've read enough hateful, over-generalizing crap today. It's the same old stuff, from the same people. It's boring.

You're all over the place in this post. First you mention two areas and now you're all over the place and going back millennia. You're going to have to be more specific if you want to have a dialogue. Are we talking about the present day situation or stuff from centuries ago? Because the contexts aren't the same. I also brought up Christianity because the same arguments can be used against it, and on a much larger and bloodier scale.

I'm talking about the nature of Islam itself, once it reaches a large enough number it is very difficult if not impossible for it to get along with indigenous cultures. This has been glaringly obvious all through history, and no it's not the fault of 'white people'. Given even more power eventually Islamic cultures believe other cultures cannot be allowed to exist, since they are an affront to the truth which is al Islam.

The contexts are irrelevant here because Islam believes it is the eternal truth. There is no context, Islam IS the context.

You claim anyone who speaks against Islam is full of hate. To me that sounds like someone saying anyone who is against white supremacy is full of hate.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm talking about the nature of Islam itself, once it reaches a large enough number it is very difficult if not impossible for it to get along with indigenous cultures. This has been glaringly obvious all through history, and no it's not the fault of 'white people'. Given even more power eventually Islamic cultures believe other cultures cannot be allowed to exist, since they are an affront to the truth which is al Islam.

The contexts are irrelevant here because Islam believes it is the eternal truth. There is no context, Islam IS the context.

You claim anyone who speaks against Islam is full of hate. To me that sounds like someone saying anyone who is against white supremacy is full of hate.

^There's that over-generalization I was speaking of, along with misrepresentation. Good grief.

 

[MD]

^There's that over-generalization I was speaking of, along with misrepresentation. Good grief.

Care to clarify?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Examples, of course. But there are important statistical differences. There have been something like 20,000 Islamic terrorist attacks in the last 15 years. What are the numbers for the other religions that you mentioned?

I don't have numbers, but it doesn't change the fact that Islam isn't the only religion with violent radicals. Or that it is not religion alone that causes terrorism, but politics and economic issues.