Gehenna Is Not Hellfire; what is it?

[Hockeycowboy]

The following is an excerpt from a non-JW Index , the link of which is posted below….

Garbage Dump
The Greek word GeHenna is often translated as Hell Fire in other Bibles.
However, the word simply means the Valley (heb. ge) of Hinnom.

Understand that the Valley of Hinnom (also referred to as ‘the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom‘) was an actual place in ancient JeruSalem.
It wasn’t some symbolic Hell fire;
Rather, it was a valley that was used as the city’s garbage dump, which was located along the southeastern corner of its outer wall.

Before JeruSalem’s conquest by Babylon, the Valley of Hinnom had once been a beautiful park.
However, because unfaithful Jews started offering their children as sacrifices on an altar to the God Moloch there (see 2 Chronicles 28:3);
After their repatriation to JeruSalem, the people started using it as a place to dump their garbage and refuse.

Of course, since it was a garbage dump, it was necessary to keep the garbage burning in order to reduce the stench and to limit the number of flies and rats.
So, sulfur and sulfurous rocks known as ‘brimstone’ were regularly thrown into the dump to keep the fires burning hot.
And this is why Jesus, when using the term, spoke of the fire as not being put out.
Also, because worms (maggots) bred along the edges of the dump, he could say that the worms would always be there.

The only cases where humans were actually thrown into GeHenna provides an insight into what Jesus was talking about when he referred to people as going there.
For there were cases where the dead bodies of particularly vile criminals were thrown into GeHenna’s fires, because people felt that they were undeserving of a decent burial.
And as you read the Scriptures, you will notice the importance that Hebrews placed on being ‘laid to rest with their ancestors.’

So when Jesus spoke of people being thrown into GeHenna;
He was using the name of a familiar place to make the point that those whom God views as being unrepentant sinners would be thrown into the ‘garbage dump;’
For they were unworthy of a resurrection by Him.
Notice that this outcome was well illustrated by what happened to wicked Queen JezeBel, for her body was eaten by dogs.

Such an outcome for the willfully wicked was also referred to by Jesus (in Matthew’s account) as the fire of the age.
Why did he use that term?
Because fire destroys, and this destruction is for the ages.
(For more information, see the linked document, ‘Is there a Burning Hell?’)
http://www.2001translation.com/NOTES.htm#

(Oops! Title has a typo. It should be “Gehenna is not hellfire”. Sorry.)

 

[74x12]

So when Jesus spoke of people being thrown into GeHenna;
He was using the name of a familiar place to make the point that those whom God views as being unrepentant sinners would be thrown into the ‘garbage dump;’
For they were unworthy of a resurrection by Him.

It's a metaphor for God's garbage dump in the sky called the lake of fire.

 

[mangalavara]

So, sulfur and sulfurous rocks known as ‘brimstone’ were regularly thrown into the dump to keep the fires burning hot.
And this is why Jesus, when using the term, spoke of the fire as not being put out.

The only cases where humans were actually thrown into GeHenna provides an insight into what Jesus was talking about when he referred to people as going there.
For there were cases where the dead bodies of particularly vile criminals were thrown into GeHenna’s fires, because people felt that they were undeserving of a decent burial.

This is very informative. Had I known about this when I was a Christian, I would have been a believer in annihilationism rather than eternal conscious torment.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It has been said that a garbage dump is where the remains of Jesus were and the the temple of the Holy Sepulcher was eventually built over it.

"They were not willing to have the body of His Holiness Jesus Christ put in the Jews’ cemetery. The Apostles went and bought a piece of land and interred him. Then the Jews took their refuse there. Later men came and built a great church over it. This was built by the mother of one of the Caesars, after three hundred years. Even up to this time in certain parts it is known as the Church of Refuse. This is really the Tomb of Christ. It was the place where all the refuse of the city was gathered in the day of Christ. For three hundred years it continued in this manner. You can go now and see what wonderful change there is, see what a wonderful church is built, how many jewels and precious stones are collected there."

Regards Tony

 

[Hockeycowboy]

This is very informative. Had I known about this when I was a Christian, I would have been a believer in annihilationism rather than eternal conscious torment.

Yes. Unfortunately, Christianity was hijacked long ago, w/ the death of the Apostles.
It was prophesied to happen… in Acts of the Apostles 20 29-30, Paul said “after I leave, ….” That doesn’t sound like centuries later, does it?

The Apostle John stated @ 1 John 2:18, “…even now there have come to be many Antichrists…”
A person could argue, “antichrists do not necessarily have to be those calling themselves ‘Christians’ ”, I could see that interpretation. So, these other Scriptures could be used:

2 Peter 3:16…(these letters were only sent to Christian congregations, so only Christians had access; but his words were ‘twisted’…by those calling themselves Christians.)

And
2 Timothy 2 14-17.

I have faith in the Scriptures, that it “is truth” (John 17:17). I see too much wisdom in it, and it has endured too many threats to its survival.
And I believe Jesus fits the bill as the Messiah, our savior, accomplishing Jehovah God’s will for restoring mankind.
That’s not the only thing though….
If we try to find Christianity by teachings, well, we’ve apparently got 33,000 to search! That is crazy!
But you know, Jesus cut through all that! He commanded @ John 13:34-35, “all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves”!

So all we need to do, is to research the history of these segments of Christendom:
To me, they’ve proven disobedient in this regard; from its inception, they have killed their brothers in state-sponsored conflicts.

But there are some who try to live by Christ’s (and the Bible’s) standards! I believe I’ve found a group.

(I hope this makes sense….it’s late & I'm tired.)

Take care, my cousin.

It's a metaphor for God's garbage dump in the sky called the lake of fire.

I agree that it’s a permanent dump, from which those thrown in will never return…..gone forever! Even death, inherited from Adam, will be cast into it!

Best wishes

 

[Hockeycowboy]

This is very informative. Had I known about this when I was a Christian, I would have been a believer in annihilationism rather than eternal conscious torment.

I wanted to add one thing….
The Resurrection, the only hope the Bible promises for the dead, is referred to as a future event (Acts of the Apostles 24:15; John 6:40)

So you could say, annihilation is temporary— of course for some, it’s been millennia; so the righteous and unrighteous, they will all come back to life! Past generations of families, reunited! A wonderful time. Cf.Ephesians 1:10; Revelation 21:3-4.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It has been said that a garbage dump is where the remains of Jesus were and the the temple of the Holy Sepulcher was eventually built over it.

"They were not willing to have the body of His Holiness Jesus Christ put in the Jews’ cemetery. The Apostles went and bought a piece of land and interred him. Then the Jews took their refuse there. Later men came and built a great church over it. This was built by the mother of one of the Caesars, after three hundred years. Even up to this time in certain parts it is known as the Church of Refuse. This is really the Tomb of Christ. It was the place where all the refuse of the city was gathered in the day of Christ. For three hundred years it continued in this manner. You can go now and see what wonderful change there is, see what a wonderful church is built, how many jewels and precious stones are collected there."

Regards Tony

Interesting quote! Good night, Tony. (it’s sunny where you are, isn’t it? Good day, then. Lol.)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Interesting quote! Good night, Tony. (it’s sunny where you are, isn’t it? Good day, then. Lol.)

Hot as hell in fact I found there was a area of graves there as well, interesting hey

Good night to you, Regards Tony

 

[Harel13]

Oops! Title has a typo. It should be “Gehenna is not hellfire”. Sorry

Fixed.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Fixed.

Thank you!

 

[an anarchist]

If there is no eternal hellfire, what about revelations 20?
10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Dead Are Judged
11 Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Just curious, because here Hell is presented in the frightening hellfire forever type of way

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If there is no eternal hellfire, what about revelations 20?
10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Good question!

In reading Revelation 20, you’ll find that Hell is “cast into” the Lake of Fire.
(Have you ever heard of anything cast into itself?)

They must be two separate things.

I look forward to consider this more with you.
(Sorry I’m late replying, I missed this post.)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If there is no eternal hellfire, what about revelations 20?
10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Dead Are Judged
11 Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Just curious, because here Hell is presented in the frightening hellfire forever type of way

Now, I quote your entire post! (I shoulda done that to begin with!)

Hades, btw, is hell…. You agree?

Two questions:
1) In vs14, what is said to be “thrown into” the L of F, right before Hell / Hades?

Meditate on that, then answer the next question:




Can that literally be burned?

Looking forward to your answers.

 

[an anarchist]

Now, I quote your entire post! (I shoulda done that to begin with!)

Hades, btw, is hell…. You agree?

Two questions:
1) In vs14, what is said to be “thrown into” the L of F, right before Hell / Hades?

Meditate on that, then answer the next question:




Can that literally be burned?

Looking forward to your answers.

Hades is not Hell, I think. (What I understand) Until the resurrection happens, we all go to Hades. We are separated in Hades, the righteous and the unrighteous, but we are all there none the less.
Your first question. Death is thrown in. But isn’t that in reference to the fact that everyone is going to be conscious for eternity? Either experiencing Heaven or Hell.
So perhaps Hades will be literally burnt in the lake of fire, death is a concept, so for it to be burnt it means it cannot exist anymore.
I think Hades is a physical place perhaps Numbers 16:30-33
It exists on earth, so when Christ comes to establish His kingdom on Earth, Hades will be brought up and emptied. Some will stay on Earth, while the rest follow the Devil and his angels to eternal hellfire.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hades is not Hell, I think. (What I understand) Until

I see that the Baha'i Writings have now clarified for us that heaven and hell are states of being, not material places

Heaven is nearness to God, remoteness from God is Hell. This is what Jesus Christ offers us by embracing God in the Spirit of Faith, we are born again from our material state, to the state of Spiritual Birth.

Then the challenge begins. The spiritual birth does not mean that everything stops, it means that we still have to develop and grow in our understanding of what is required in this life to become spiritual.

Abdul'baha was a perfect example of what it means to be born again in the spirit and Jesus sacrafice on the cross also shows what it means. It means we sacrafice our worldly selves, which is hell and embrace our spiritual selves which is service and giving to others.

True faith is a bounty in giving of self, and that is the reward it offers.

Abdul'baha lived the perfect life and offered to us this is where heaven (true life) is found,
"Look at me, follow me, be as I am; take no thought for yourselves or your lives, whether ye eat or whether ye sleep, whether ye are comfortable, whether ye are well or ill, whether ye are with friends or foes, whether ye receive praise or blame; for all these things ye must care not at all. Look at me and be as I am; ye must die to yourselves and to the world, so ye shall be born again and enter the kingdom of heaven. Behold the candle, how it gives light. It weeps its life away drop by drop in order to give forth its flame of light."

I hope that you can find that level of service, I hope you obtain to heaven while here on earth, but like all things we must find it by effort and faith is but the beginning.

I wish you well in your journey to find faith, to find meaning as to why we are created from dust, and will return to dust, yet long for the myriad of understandings made available to us.

All the best and Regards Tony

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hades is not Hell, I think. (What I understand)

You know, Xavier, you can check this yourself….
They're the same…..
Check out the translations from BibleHub.com, where the term “Hades” is used (like in Revelation 20:14 << touch this link for King James):

New International Version
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

New Living Translation
Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Death and Sheol were cast into The Lake of Fire- this which is the second death.

Revelation 20:14 Parallel: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. << touch this too, please.

Sheol, Hades, Hell, and the Grave, are the same.

And yes, death is hurled into the L of Fire. But death isn’t something you can burn, is it? No. If it’the Fire is literal, then ‘throwing death into’ it makes no sense.

So, since it isn’t literal, being thrown into it, must be symbolic.
What does it mean then, being hurled into fire?
Well, have you ever burned something up? What happened to the item?
Is it going to come back? Nope, it is gone forever! It is no more!


So, death (associated with Hell) will be no more? Yes!
Turn to the next chapter, Revelation 21, and read vs.4. “Death will be no more.”

Your signature is “God is love....” You’re right. But Eternal torture doesn’t fit with His love.

I’ll get into the Greek term for “torment”, later. (Or you could look it up.) It is enlightening!

Tomorrow, my cousin.

 

[PinSeeker]

You know, Xavier, you can check this yourself….
They're the same…..
Check out the translations from BibleHub.com, where the term “Hades” is used (like in Revelation 20:14 << touch this link for King James):

New International Version
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

New Living Translation
Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Death and Sheol were cast into The Lake of Fire- this which is the second death.

Revelation 20:14 Parallel: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. << touch this too, please.

Sheol, Hades, Hell, and the Grave, are the same.

And yes, death is hurled into the L of Fire. But death isn’t something you can burn, is it? No. If it’the Fire is literal, then ‘throwing death into’ it makes no sense.

So, since it isn’t literal, being thrown into it, must be symbolic.
What does it mean then, being hurled into fire?
Well, have you ever burned something up? What happened to the item?
Is it going to come back? Nope, it is gone forever! It is no more!


So, death (associated with Hell) will be no more? Yes!
Turn to the next chapter, Revelation 21, and read vs.4. “Death will be no more.”

Your signature is “God is love....” You’re right. But Eternal torture doesn’t fit with His love.

I’ll get into the Greek term for “torment”, later. (Or you could look it up.) It is enlightening!

Tomorrow, my cousin.

Hello to all. I obviously just joined the forum, and this is my inaugural post; I was... born yesterday... Thanks in advance for welcoming me to the party.

There are quite a few things that I would like to respond to in this thread, but I'm just going to lump it all under the term 'eschatology' and give my view. My understanding is based in several passages from the New Testament, all of which have Old Testament allusions and roots: Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 8:13, Matthew 25:31-46, Mark 9:47-48, Luke 16:19-31, John 5:25-29, and of course Revelation 20:1-15, which seems to be the focus here.

I agree with the posters that Jesus's reference to Gehenna in Matthew 5:28-29 and Mark 9:43-48 (also, "where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched"), and the lake of fire of Revelation 20 are all allusions to the same thing.

I would add Matthew 8:13 to those citations and say that what it really looks like we cannot know, but only that it is a place we want to avoid at all cost; it is a place of at least figurative darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth. This is the eternal dwelling place of those not in Christ, where they are sent as a result of the final Judgment, depicted graphically in Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 25:41-46.

Jesus's depiction of the deceased rich man in His parable found in Luke 16 (especially verses15-28) gives us a little more insight into what people will endure in that place. The heat and thirst are figurative in nature; heat and fire are throughout the Bible used to illustrate God's righteous, holy anger and His judgment (Moses's encounter with God on Sinai in Exodus 19 through Exodus 31 comes immediately to mind, and Isaiah 66 ("For behold, the LORD will come in fire,
and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire will the LORD enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by the LORD shall be many"), among others. But those who dwell there will be in anguish, and being there will be a torment to them (no one is literally tortured by anyone) for eternity. The unending anguish and internal torment is their "worm" that will not die... their worm of Mark 9:48 symbolizes the anguish and internal torment.

With regard to the lake of fire in Revelation 20 specifically, this should be seen as a symbol of the eternal dwelling place of unbelievers, where they are totally immersed in the final, permanent judgment of God, issued once and for all by Christ Jesus and endured from that point forward without end. This is their punishment and is indeed of eternity, lasting forever, and not a cessation of existence in any sense. I would disagree that it's a total separation from God. God is omnipresent and will administrate His justice throughout eternity. Although... unbelievers are certainly separated from Jesus (the second Person of the triune God) and the new heaven and new earth.

Comments welcome and invited, of course. Grace and peace to you all.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hello to all. I obviously just joined the forum, and this is my inaugural post; I was... born yesterday... Thanks in advance for welcoming me to the party.

There are quite a few things that I would like to respond to in this thread, but I'm just going to lump it all under the term 'eschatology' and give my view. My understanding is based in several passages from the New Testament, all of which have Old Testament allusions and roots: Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 8:13, Matthew 25:31-46, Mark 9:47-48, Luke 16:19-31, John 5:25-29, and of course Revelation 20:1-15, which seems to be the focus here.

I agree with the posters that Jesus's reference to Gehenna in Matthew 5:28-29 and Mark 9:43-48 (also, "where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched"), and the lake of fire of Revelation 20 are all allusions to the same thing.

I would add Matthew 8:13 to those citations and say that what it really looks like we cannot know, but only that it is a place we want to avoid at all cost; it is a place of at least figurative darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth. This is the eternal dwelling place of those not in Christ, where they are sent as a result of the final Judgment, depicted graphically in Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 25:41-46.

Jesus's depiction of the deceased rich man in His parable found in Luke 16 (especially verses15-28) gives us a little more insight into what people will endure in that place. The heat and thirst are figurative in nature; heat and fire are throughout the Bible used to illustrate God's righteous, holy anger and His judgment (Moses's encounter with God on Sinai in Exodus 19 through Exodus 31 comes immediately to mind, and Isaiah 66 ("For behold, the LORD will come in fire,
and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire will the LORD enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by the LORD shall be many"), among others. But those who dwell there will be in anguish, and being there will be a torment to them (no one is literally tortured by anyone) for eternity. The unending anguish and internal torment is their "worm" that will not die... their worm of Mark 9:48 symbolizes the anguish and internal torment.

With regard to the lake of fire in Revelation 20 specifically, this should be seen as a symbol of the eternal dwelling place of unbelievers, where they are totally immersed in the final, permanent judgment of God, issued once and for all by Christ Jesus and endured from that point forward without end. This is their punishment and is indeed of eternity, lasting forever, and not a cessation of existence in any sense. I would disagree that it's a total separation from God. God is omnipresent and will administrate His justice throughout eternity. Although... unbelievers are certainly separated from Jesus (the second Person of the triune God) and the new heaven and new earth.

Comments welcome and invited, of course. Grace and peace to you all.

Peace to you too, my cousin.

I’m sorry, but the fire in these passages is figurative, and fire has no connection with Hell.

In fact Hell is “cast into” the Lake of Fire, and so is death. — Revelation 20:13,14
Let me ask you something: can you burn death? No… it’s intangible.

So what does fire, in this passage, symbolize? Complete destruction: whatever is thrown into the LoF, will be no more. And that’s exactly what Revelation 21:4 tells us, that death will be “no more.”

And God’s enemies, too, will simply perish…. They will be “no more.”

Remember, Romans 6:3 tells us the everlasting life is a “gift”; not a means to exact retribution or punishment.

 

[syo]

Been there.

 

[DNB]

The following is an excerpt from a non-JW Index , the link of which is posted below….

Garbage Dump
The Greek word GeHenna is often translated as Hell Fire in other Bibles.
However, the word simply means the Valley (heb. ge) of Hinnom.

Understand that the Valley of Hinnom (also referred to as ‘the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom‘) was an actual place in ancient JeruSalem.
It wasn’t some symbolic Hell fire;
Rather, it was a valley that was used as the city’s garbage dump, which was located along the southeastern corner of its outer wall.

Before JeruSalem’s conquest by Babylon, the Valley of Hinnom had once been a beautiful park.
However, because unfaithful Jews started offering their children as sacrifices on an altar to the God Moloch there (see 2 Chronicles 28:3);
After their repatriation to JeruSalem, the people started using it as a place to dump their garbage and refuse.

Of course, since it was a garbage dump, it was necessary to keep the garbage burning in order to reduce the stench and to limit the number of flies and rats.
So, sulfur and sulfurous rocks known as ‘brimstone’ were regularly thrown into the dump to keep the fires burning hot.
And this is why Jesus, when using the term, spoke of the fire as not being put out.
Also, because worms (maggots) bred along the edges of the dump, he could say that the worms would always be there.

The only cases where humans were actually thrown into GeHenna provides an insight into what Jesus was talking about when he referred to people as going there.
For there were cases where the dead bodies of particularly vile criminals were thrown into GeHenna’s fires, because people felt that they were undeserving of a decent burial.
And as you read the Scriptures, you will notice the importance that Hebrews placed on being ‘laid to rest with their ancestors.’

So when Jesus spoke of people being thrown into GeHenna;
He was using the name of a familiar place to make the point that those whom God views as being unrepentant sinners would be thrown into the ‘garbage dump;’
For they were unworthy of a resurrection by Him.
Notice that this outcome was well illustrated by what happened to wicked Queen JezeBel, for her body was eaten by dogs.

Such an outcome for the willfully wicked was also referred to by Jesus (in Matthew’s account) as the fire of the age.
Why did he use that term?
Because fire destroys, and this destruction is for the ages.
(For more information, see the linked document, ‘Is there a Burning Hell?’)
Notes

(Oops! Title has a typo. It should be “Gehenna is not hellfire”. Sorry.)

Although, annihilationism is attractive, I don't believe that the Bible conveys that eschatological principle about the reprobate.
For, as Paul said that '...return evil with love...as it is tantamount to putting burning coals on the aggressor's head...', I compare this figurative usage of the expression to be aligned with Jesus' statement about '...weeping and gnashing of teeth...where the fire never quenches...'.

That is, the torment is internal - being ostracized from the Kingdom will surely elicit such frustration and regret, causing one's conscience to burn perpetually. After all, all the sinner had to do was say 'sorry' (repentance), and 'thank you!' for God's grace - salvation handed to them on a silver platter. Point being, therefore, they will be punishing themselves - God is not a sadist.

And, the indictment is warranted, for they treated Christ's love and God's mercy with contempt and ridicule, while, at the same time, living a life of selfish and unholy behaviour.
Again, the punishment fits the crime, and they are inflicting it upon themselves.