Gehenna Is Not Hellfire; what is it?

[Hockeycowboy]

Although, annihilationism is attractive, I don't believe that the Bible conveys that eschatological principle about the reprobate.
For, as Paul said that '...return evil with love...as it is tantamount to putting burning coals on the aggressor's head...', I compare this figurative usage of the expression to be aligned with Jesus' statement about '...weeping and gnashing of teeth...where the fire never quenches...'.

That is, the torment is internal - being ostracized from the Kingdom will surely elicit such frustration and regret, causing one's conscience to burn perpetually. After all, all the sinner had to do was say 'sorry' (repentance), and 'thank you!' for God's grace - salvation handed to them on a silver platter. Point being, therefore, they will be punishing themselves - God is not a sadist.

And, the indictment is warranted, for they treated Christ's love and God's mercy with contempt and ridicule, while, at the same time, living a life of selfish and unholy behaviour.
Again, the punishment fits the crime, and they are inflicting it upon themselves.

Hello, hope you are doing well.

If you and I continue sharing our thoughts with each other on the subject of death, or if you look at my past litany of posts on the subject, you’ll quickly find that I believe exactly as Ecclesiastes 9:5, Genesis 3:19, and Psalms 146:3,4 state: that the dead “know nothing”, that Adam returned “to dust”, and that when a person dies, “his spirit goes out, he goes back to the ground” and “his thoughts perish.”
As Jesus said about Lazarus in John 11:11-14, he had “fallen asleep.” (Paul used that term many times; a person asleep is not aware of what’s going on, or the passage of time.)

For all intents and purposes, the dead are temporarily non-existent, ie., temporarily annihilated.

But that’s what the promised Resurrection, in the future (John 6:44; Acts 24:15), will undo: bring back to life, those who’ve died.

And, as Romans 6:23 states, everlasting life is “the gift” God gives; it’s not used to inflict punishment in any way.

The only punishment given is death, ie., non-existence, the opposite of life.

I agree that God is not a sadist.

Human death now, resulting from sickness & death (as opposed to death by accident), is due to Adamic sin (Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23). From which Jesus’ sacrifice provides that Resurrection.

The “second death”, as mentioned in Scripture, is just eternal death. From which no one will ever be resurrected. They will simply be gone forever.

The Lake of Fire mentioned in Revelation 20:13,14 is symbolic. Because death is cast into it.

I mean, you really can’t burn death.
But it can be made to be gone forever… to be “no more”. And that’s exactly what the next chapter, at Revelation 21:4, states: “death (Adamic, resulting from sin) will be no more.”

Take care, my cousin.

 

[DNB]

Hello, hope you are doing well.

If you and I continue sharing our thoughts with each other on the subject of death, or if you look at my past litany of posts on the subject, you’ll quickly find that I believe exactly as Ecclesiastes 9:5, Genesis 3:19, and Psalms 146:3,4 state: that the dead “know nothing”, that Adam returned “to dust”, and that when a person dies, “his spirit goes out, he goes back to the ground” and “his thoughts perish.”
As Jesus said about Lazarus in John 11:11-14, he had “fallen asleep.” (Paul used that term many times; a person asleep is not aware of what’s going on, or the passage of time.)

For all intents and purposes, the dead are temporarily non-existent, ie., temporarily annihilated.

But that’s what the promised Resurrection, in the future (John 6:44; Acts 24:15), will undo: bring back to life, those who’ve died.

And, as Romans 6:23 states, everlasting life is “the gift” God gives; it’s not used to inflict punishment in any way.

The only punishment given is death, ie., non-existence, the opposite of life.

I agree that God is not a sadist.

Human death now, resulting from sickness & death (as opposed to death by accident), is due to Adamic sin (Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23). From which Jesus’ sacrifice provides that Resurrection.

The “second death”, as mentioned in Scripture, is just eternal death. From which no one will ever be resurrected. They will simply be gone forever.

The Lake of Fire mentioned in Revelation 20:13,14 is symbolic. Because death is cast into it.

I mean, you really can’t burn death.
But it can be made to be gone forever… to be “no more”. And that’s exactly what the next chapter, at Revelation 21:4, states: “death (Adamic, resulting from sin) will be no more.”

Take care, my cousin.

I do believe, as you do, in the texts of Ecclesiastes 9:5, Genesis 3:19, and Psalms 146:3,4. I believe in soul-sleep. But, I don't regard the verses in question as eschatological, but merely expressing the significance of being alive, and how useless one is upon death: in praising God or doing good deeds.
But, I also believe in eternal torment. Regard the following passages that speak of either eternal punishment or an inextinguishable fire (why keep the fire going if there's nothing left to burn?)

Matthew 25:46​

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jude 1:7 ​

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41 ​

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 ​

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Revelation 20:10 ​

And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Mark 9:48 ​

‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

​

 

[YoursTrue]

This is very informative. Had I known about this when I was a Christian, I would have been a believer in annihilationism rather than eternal conscious torment.

Before I turned to God in truth I thought as you do. I visited various religions, read books on eastern religions, didn't believe a word of it. I never believed in literal hellfire anyway, so learning as Hockeycowboy aptly explained hellfire or Gehenna really is was a treasure and eye-opener for me.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I do believe, as you do, in the texts of Ecclesiastes 9:5, Genesis 3:19, and Psalms 146:3,4. I believe in soul-sleep. But, I don't regard the verses in question as eschatological, but merely expressing the significance of being alive, and how useless one is upon death: in praising God or doing good deeds.
But, I also believe in eternal torment. Regard the following passages that speak of either eternal punishment or an inextinguishable fire (why keep the fire going if there's nothing left to burn?)

Matthew 25:46​

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jude 1:7 ​

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41 ​

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 ​

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Revelation 20:10 ​

And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Mark 9:48 ​

‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

​

Hey DNB, hope you and yours are doing well!

If these Scriptures are to be understood literally, then really if someone is literally experiencing punishment / torment forever? To experience something, you have to be alive, aware. But Matthew 25:46 contrasts the two phrases.

Are you familiar with the Greek word “basanizos” & the related “basanistes”? “Basanistes” has been translated “jailer” in some versions.

Here’s an article that helps to explain them:

https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&prefer=lang&docid=1200004454


Keep in mind God’s quality of love, and then we should ask ourselves, “If a passage could be understood two different ways, which understanding is better in showing God’s love?”

Romans 6:23 tells us that everlasting life is a “gift”, not a means to punish.

On top of that… does fire always have to be literal in Scripture, as many are taught that it is?
If you look at Revelation 20:13,14, it says “death & Hades (Hell) were cast into the L of F.” Can death be burned? No. So what’s the purpose or meaning of ‘casting death into fire’?
Just as fire completely destroys an object — I mean, you ain’t ever gettin it back! — it’s “no more” — so too with whatever is thrown into that symbolic fire. And Revelation 21:3,4 says, “Death will be *no more*”. Symbolically thrown into the L of F.
So Revelation 20:10 can mean the Devil will be gone forever, jailed / punished in the chains of the Second Death for eternity.
Along with the rest of the wicked. Actually that is what Revelation 21:1 is telling us: see where it says “the sea is no more”? When we read about the sea in Isaiah 57:20, we can make the connection. See Psalm 37:9-11.
Really, it is the fulfillment of the Lord’s Prayer at Matthew 6:9,10…”Your Kingdom come, Your Will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven.”


A marvelous future awaits mankind.
IMO; this is what I’ve been taught, and it’s consistent with God’s love. Non-existence is enough.

Another question: can literal fire really hurt spirits? Throwing the Devil and his angels into it, will literally torment them? God sent an angel to protect the 3 Hebrews from the fire. It didn’t hurt any of them.

Here are some scriptures that speak of the outcome of the wicked:
Matthew 7:13,
2Peter 3:7,
2Thess. 1:9,
2Peter 2:3.

Destruction, not literally tormented.


Best wishes, cousin.

 

[DNB]

Hey DNB, hope you and yours are doing well!
If these Scriptures are to be understood literally, then really if someone is literally experiencing punishment / torment forever? To experience something, you have to be alive, aware. But Matthew 25:46 contrasts the two phrases.

But, in the verse, both are alive? Yes, they both died initially with no consciousness, but were resurrected for judgement where they each received an pronouncement of eternal consequence.

Are you familiar with the Greek word “basanizos” & the related “basanistes”? “Basanistes” has been translated “jailer” in some versions.
Here’s an article that helps to explain them:
https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&prefer=lang&docid=1200004454

So, you feel that the fire is the testing in order to determine the outcome, and not the outcome itself?

Keep in mind God’s quality of love, and then we should ask ourselves, “If a passage could be understood two different ways, which understanding is better in showing God’s love?”

Romans 6:23 tells us that everlasting life is a “gift”, not a means to punish.

Yes, I agree, a very good hermeneutical principle to apply to all exegesis. Thus, as I said, they are tormenting themselves, in a manner that Paul endorsed when he said that their guilt will feel like burning coals on their head.

On top of that… does fire always have to be literal in Scripture, as many are taught that it is?
If you look at Revelation 20:13,14, it says “death & Hades (Hell) were cast into the L of F.” Can death be burned? No. So what’s the purpose or meaning of ‘casting death into fire’?
Just as fire completely destroys an object — I mean, you ain’t ever gettin it back! — it’s “no more” — so too with whatever is thrown into that symbolic fire. And Revelation 21:3,4 says, “Death will be *no more*”. Symbolically thrown into the L of F.
So Revelation 20:10 can mean the Devil will be gone forever, jailed / punished in the chains of the Second Death for eternity.
Along with the rest of the wicked. Actually that is what Revelation 21:1 is telling us: see where it says “the sea is no more”? When we read about the sea in Isaiah 57:20, we can make the connection. See Psalm 37:9-11.
Really, it is the fulfillment of the Lord’s Prayer at Matthew 6:9,10…”Your Kingdom come, Your Will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven.”

I feel that fire, as I've always maintained, is metaphorical also, symbolic of guilt and regret.

A marvelous future awaits mankind.
IMO; this is what I’ve been taught, and it’s consistent with God’s love. Non-existence is enough.

Another question: can literal fire really hurt spirits? Throwing the Devil and his angels into it, will literally torment them? God sent an angel to protect the 3 Hebrews from the fire. It didn’t hurt any of them.

Here are some scriptures that speak of the outcome of the wicked:
Matthew 7:13,
2Peter 3:7,
2Thess. 1:9,
2Peter 2:3.

Destruction, not literally tormented.


Best wishes, cousin.

God is not a sadist, but he allows man to suffer when they've been given freely, and enough opportunities to repent.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

But, in the verse, both are alive? Yes, they both died initially with no consciousness, but were resurrected for judgement where they each received an pronouncement of eternal consequence.

So, you feel that the fire is the testing in order to determine the outcome, and not the outcome itself?

Yes, I agree, a very good hermeneutical principle to apply to all exegesis. Thus, as I said, they are tormenting themselves, in a manner that Paul endorsed when he said that their guilt will feel like burning coals on their head.

I feel that fire, as I've always maintained, is metaphorical also, symbolic of guilt and regret.

God is not a sadist, but he allows man to suffer when they've been given freely, and enough opportunities to repent.

Oh, I think I understand your pov.

What do you believe regarding the Judgement part? Here’s what I was taught:
According to Romans 6:7, when a person dies, they are “acquitted / freed” from their sins.
And a few verses further, in vs.23, isn’t death called “the wages of sin”?

If that’s true — that death results in acquittal — then what is this judgment based on?
Since the unrighteous are also to receive a resurrection, as per John 5:28,29 and Acts 24:15, the judgement must be based on how these people act after their resurrection.

If people are still judged on what they did before they died, then death really didn’t free them from their sins.
But the Bible states otherwise.

Have a good one.

 

[DNB]

Oh, I think I understand your pov.

What do you believe regarding the Judgement part? Here’s what I was taught:
According to Romans 6:7, when a person dies, they are “acquitted / freed” from their sins.
And a few verses further, in vs.23, isn’t death called “the wages of sin”?

If that’s true — that death results in acquittal — then what is this judgment based on?
Since the unrighteous are also to receive a resurrection, as per John 5:28,29 and Acts 24:15, the judgement must be based on how these people act after their resurrection.

If people are still judged on what they did before they died, then death really didn’t free them from their sins.
But the Bible states otherwise.

Have a good one.

I've never understood natural death to be a cleansing in any manner - for even Jesus died.
I've always understood that how man conducts himself on earth, whether he's alive at the 2nd coming or not, he will be judged according to his earthly deeds.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It's a metaphor for God's garbage dump in the sky called the lake of fire.

Metaphor for the lake of fire (?) or as Rev. 20:13-14 gives the definition of the lake of fire defined as ' second death '
There is No death in Heaven (sky) the death problem exists here on Earth.
No tomb stones in Heaven/sky but here on Earth is where death will end - 1st Cor. 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
Gehenna is perpetual death ( Jeremiah 51:39,57 ) A death ( second death ) a lasting death of No awakening for the wicked.
The wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' - Psalm 92:7; Psalm 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22 - lights out forever.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I've never understood natural death to be a cleansing in any manner - for even Jesus died.
I've always understood that how man conducts himself on earth, whether he's alive at the 2nd coming or not, he will be judged according to his earthly deeds.

I notice you said ' deeds' and the ' deeds ' are connected to how the figurative sheep and goats treat Jesus' spiritual ' brothers ' - Matt. 25:40
Jesus' spiritual ' brothers are like the people mentioned at Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18.
When the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected ( KJV says just and unjust - Acts 24:15 ) then those resurrected ones will be judged on what they do after they are resurrected.
The righteous to remain righteous and the unrighteous to become righteous to gain everlasting life as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Although, annihilationism is attractive, I don't believe that the Bible conveys that eschatological principle about the reprobate..............................

Psalm 37:38; Psalm 92:7; Psalm 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22 informs us the wicked will be ' destroyed forever '.
Notice the choice is ' repent ' if one does Not want to ' perish ' at 2nd Peter 3:9 ( perish means: destroyed )

 

[DNB]

I notice you said ' deeds' and the ' deeds ' are connected to how the figurative sheep and goats treat Jesus' spiritual ' brothers ' - Matt. 25:40
Jesus' spiritual ' brothers are like the people mentioned at Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18.
When the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected ( KJV says just and unjust - Acts 24:15 ) then those resurrected ones will be judged on what they do after they are resurrected.
The righteous to remain righteous and the unrighteous to become righteous to gain everlasting life as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.

Sorry, I'm not finding Biblical support for your exegesis.

 

[DNB]

Psalm 37:38; Psalm 92:7; Psalm 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22 informs us the wicked will be ' destroyed forever '.
Notice the choice is ' repent ' if one does Not want to ' perish ' at 2nd Peter 3:9 ( perish means: destroyed )

Eternal punishment can convey destruction and death, perishing, lost or 'no more', etc...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Eternal punishment can convey destruction and death, perishing, lost or 'no more', etc...

Yes, agree the ' eternal punishment ' ( 1st Thess. 1:9 ) does convey destruction, death, perishing, lost (forever) and No more.
No more opportunity for everlasting life for the wicked - Psalm 92:7; 104:35

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sorry, I'm not finding Biblical support for your exegesis.

Please notice the 'future tense' is used at Acts 24:15 ( righteous and unrighteous, KJV just and unjust )
There would be No need for a resurrection if already judged.
Death is what stamps the total complete asking price tag for sin as: Paid in Full - Romans 6:23,7
So, unless as already judged as being beyond reform (Matthew 12:32) one will have the opportunity for everlasting life.
Remember: the majority of mankind have died without having the opportunity to yet put faith in Jesus. - John 3:13
They can have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection as Jesus demonstrated when he resurrected the dead.
In other words, what Jesus did on a small scale he will be doing on a grand-global scale during his thousand-year governmental reign over Earth.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hot as hell in fact I found there was a area of graves there as well, interesting hey

Good night to you, Regards Tony

Are you referring to outside Jerusalem?
Yes, there was.
Jeremiah 7:31 mentions it, built specifically for child sacrifice. Sick!

Here’s some more info about To’pheth:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004452

In Jeremiah, Jehovah said He never even thought about such a thing! But what does Christendom do? They’ve twisted the Scriptures and created the doctrine of Hellfire, attributing to God that very thing!

The word “torment” found in many translations can simply mean being jailed:
“The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia comments: “Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as ‘torment’ (as it doubtless was), and the ‘tormentors’ need mean nothing more than jailers.””
This excerpt comes from an interesting article - just a couple minutes of reading - describing “touchstone”, related to the Greek word basanos, from which torment is derived:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008247?q=%22how+the+ancient+kingdom+of+lydia+affects+us+today%22&p=par

Have a great day, my cousin!

 

[DNB]

Please notice the 'future tense' is used at Acts 24:15 ( righteous and unrighteous, KJV just and unjust )
There would be No need for a resurrection if already judged.
Death is what stamps the total complete asking price tag for sin as: Paid in Full - Romans 6:23,7
So, unless as already judged as being beyond reform (Matthew 12:32) one will have the opportunity for everlasting life.
Remember: the majority of mankind have died without having the opportunity to yet put faith in Jesus. - John 3:13
They can have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection as Jesus demonstrated when he resurrected the dead.
In other words, what Jesus did on a small scale he will be doing on a grand-global scale during his thousand-year governmental reign over Earth.

But, no one will be, or has been judged until Christ returns. Abraham, Moses and David died, so did Peter, Paul and Mary, they too require standing at the Great White throne, as do Hitler, Pol Pot, Darwin, Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins.

I don't believe that the consequence of rebellion or lack of faith, will be extinguishment from life and consciousness, but frustrating remorse for their rejection of God's gracious and gratuitous mercy.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It's a metaphor for God's garbage dump in the sky called the lake of fire.

And "God's garbage dump" is a metaphor for "our garbage dump for people who don't think like us."

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Because fire destroys, and this destruction is for the ages.

For they were unworthy of a resurrection by Him.

I’m asking this question for a reason but rhetorically:

What would happen if a chosen one, someone whose name is written in the book of eternal life, is thrown into this fire?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Your signature is “God is love....” You’re right. But Eternal torture doesn’t fit with His love.

Nobody is thrown into the fire against their will. Remember that God appears to Moses as fire, and that fire can be used to purify.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

They can have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection as Jesus demonstrated when he resurrected the dead.

Don’t count on this. The only sure bet is to become one with the Son and the Father and resurrect yourself. Just like Jesus did.