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Genealogies of Jesus

monti

Member
And you posting silly rolling eyes say what exactly? My point is that before the apologist make wild suggestions as to the contradictory bloodline lists they should at least read the them before simply repeating what no doubt others have stated before .... and been shot down for.

To say one is the line of Mary when Mary is not even mentioned in any of those lists although other women are, seems all rather odd does it not? Why mention these other women of dubious character and not the pure whiter than white Virgin mother if indeed one of those lists is that of Mary’s?

Or have you put your blinkers on and refused to “dilate your eyes" as the fanatic christian Eusebius has suggested Christians should do?
 

monti

Member
I suggest you stop while your behind … :yes:

NO!

I suggest unless you can give a reasonable explanation as to why these 'GOD INSPIRED' gospels have two contradictory bloodlines for Joseph father of Jesus, then you should simply leave the thread.

So why does one of these list include four women?
Tamar - seduce her father-in-law (Genesis 38:12-19).
Rahab - was a harlot (Joshua 2:1).
Ruth - who secretly came to where Boaz was sleeping and spent the night with him. (Ruth 3:1-14).
Bathsheba. King David slept with Bathsheba the wife of Uriah. She became pregnant and David set Uriah up to be killed. (2 Samuel 11).
No angels by the sound of it yet the gospels make no mention the pure as the driven snow chosen by GOD VIRGIN MARY!? (only to say joseph was husband of Mary) and that too is also shown to very questionable once scrutinised)

No!, you cannot answer that either can you?
 
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Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I think this question needs to be shelved until and unless we can settle the issue of whether Dumbledore is actually gay or not.
 

monti

Member
I frankly don't put any faith in any of these genealogy tables.

And who could blame you metis? Only the Christian fanatic.
Just these bloodlines alone throw up endless questions and cast more doubt on the New Testament, before one gets to the more difficult contradictions and anomalies contained in the bible.
We have to ask, why Mathew and Luke even bothered with these lists whereas Mark and John do not mention them at all. Both these bloodlines are rendered useless not to mention pointless, in my opinion.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
The New Testament has two different genealogies for Jesus, Why is this?
The Christian apologist will no doubt insist that one of the bloodlines is that of Jesus’ mother Mary. There is no evidence for this to be the case.
The New Testament makes it quite clear that both Luke’s (Luke 3:23-38.KJV) and Mathew’s (Matthew 1:2-17 K J V) genealogical list are that of Jesus’ blood line.
One has to ask, do the Christian believers actually read the bible themselves or just take it on the word of their 'peers'?

Luke’s list begins;

“Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph”.

Whereas Mathew’s list finishes;

“And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ”.

There is the obvious answer. The Gospels were written by people who didn't know much about Jesus and had an agenda other than telling the truth. They didn't expect anyone to compare their stories.

The question is whether anybody has a better answer. I've not seen one, there certainly isn't one in this thread.

Tom
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
not according to (Luke 3:23-38.KJV) (Matthew 1:2-17 K J V). They both state that these are indeed the blood line of Joseph father of Jesus. Mary is not mentioned at all. So how do you know one is Joseph's and one is Mary's?


Luke:

And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph, the [son] of Eli, the [son] of Matthat, the [son] of Levi, the [son] of Melchi, the [son] of Janna, the [son] of Joseph...

Why do you suppose the clause, "as was supposed" is written before Joseph?

Matthew:

...and Eliud begat Eleazar, and Eleazar begat Matthan, and Matthan begat Jacob, and Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was begotten Jesus, who is named Christ.


Notice; this genealogy differs in structure from Luke's. Matthew follows a more traditional listing, using the word "begat" throughout. In this genealogy, Mary begat Jesus, not Joseph-- these differences are clarified in each respective gospel's immediate context:


Matthew continues:

And of Jesus Christ, the birth was thus: For his mother Mary having been betrothed to Joseph, before their coming together she was found to have conceived from the Holy Spirit, and Joseph her husband being righteous, and not willing to make her an example, did wish privately to send her away.


Luke in Chapter 1:

And Mary said unto the messenger, `How shall this be, seeing a husband I do not know?' And the messenger answering said to her, `The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God.



Luke's genealogy begins/ends with Jesus "being.. the son of Adam, the son of God."
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Gabra

Here is a stronger alternative, more researched opinion.

The fact is, he had to distinguish between two different people named Joseph - Matthew is not referring to Mary&#8217;s husband in verse 16 at all, but rather her father!

Depending on context, it has been shown that 0rbg can mean &#8216;man, husband or father.&#8217; The usage in verse 16 would demand that we translate 0rbg as &#8216;father&#8217;, rather than 'husband', since the context is a genealogy. Verses 18 & 19, however, would demand that we associate that Joseph with her &#8216;husband&#8217;, since the context is that of marriage. Matthew, then, is recording the genealogy of Mary, whereas Luke is recording that of Joseph. Which would be exactly opposite of the currently accepted academic line (which was somewhat detailed in my previous post) - that Luke recorded Mary&#8217;s lineage while Matthew recorded that of Joseph. That would give us 14 generation in the third series of Matthew. It would also explain why Luke has 20 generations in the 2nd series and 22 generations in the 3rd series - i.e., Joseph's lineage did not break out cleanly in 14-generation groupings, except for the first series. Since Matthew is giving the line of Mary, only her lineage would be required to break out evenly in 14-generation groupings. That would also explain why the names are completely different in both the 2nd and 3rd series between the accounts in Matthew and in Luke. It also demonstrates that both Mary and Joseph were descendents of King David - each through a separate line!
 
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monti

Member
So when one wishes to find the author's intent, what sort of evidence would suffice for you?

Do you always attempt to answer a question with a question of your own?
The fact is both these gospellers are adamant that both these bloodlines are that of Joseph father of Jesus.
Are not these gospels inspired by god?
They cannot both be correct.
You haven't offered anything in the way of a response or answer.
That is unless you want to count this nonsense as a reply>
One. He is not a Christian, so he doesn't have to answer the question

Two. You have already shown hostility towards the religion by dismissing how some Christian's explain why there are two genealogies. How do you know that there is no evidence? Have you studied the issue at hand? Show me your sources?
And to ask me for evidence of what some Christians believe.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Do you always attempt to answer a question with a question of your own?
The fact is both these gospellers are adamant that both these bloodlines are that of Joseph father of Jesus.
Are not these gospels inspired by god?
They cannot both be correct.
You haven't offered anything in the way of a response or answer.
That is unless you want to count this nonsense as a reply>

And to ask me for evidence of what some Christians believe.

I ask a simple question, so you want to know the author's intent, what evidence would suffice?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
NO!

I suggest unless you can give a reasonable explanation as to why these 'GOD INSPIRED' gospels have two contradictory bloodlines for Joseph father of Jesus, then you should simply leave the thread.

So why does one of these list include four women?
Tamar - seduce her father-in-law (Genesis 38:12-19).
Rahab - was a harlot (Joshua 2:1).
Ruth - who secretly came to where Boaz was sleeping and spent the night with him. (Ruth 3:1-14). ...
ALL CAPS - It just keeps getting better. :D

BTW, for the rest of you folks …
The Harlot by the Side of the Road: Forbidden Tales of the Bible is a good read, and
The JPS Bible Commentary: Ruth (Dr. Tamara Cohn Eskenazi & Dr. Tikva Frymer-Kensky) is excellent.​
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
You still have not offered any reason why these two God inspired gospels have two different genealogies for the supposed son of God; Jesus?
No, I haven't, nor do I intend to do so since it is wholly irrelevant to my issue with the adolescent arrogance of comments such as …
One has to ask, do the Christian believers actually read the bible themselves or just take it on the word of their 'peers'?
The fact is that more than a few honest and intelligent Christians have offered coherent explanations for the 'discrepancy'. To suggest that they have not "actually read the bible themselves" but, instead, "just take it on the word of their 'peers'" is petty ad hominem.

Parenthetically, asking a Jew about "these two God inspired gospels" is no less ignorant.
 

monti

Member
I ask a simple question, so you want to know the author's intent, what evidence would suffice?


You haven't followed this thread have you? If you have then you may have had trouble understanding the op.
Go and read it again. I ask for no evidence about anything. I asked a simple question.
Here, I will save you the trouble:

Post 1 Page 1
The New Testament has two different genealogies for Jesus, Why is this?

I would only ask for evidence where evidence was required and this would depend on the reply/s, now wouldn't it? But, seeing that you haven’t even made any attempt at all to answer the question or offer an explanation or theory as to why these God inspired gospels should be so obviously contradictory, I cannot ask for evidence, now can I? So at this moment, you asking me questions concerning “evidence of author’s intent” are irrelevant.

So I will take it that you do not have an answer or a reply or a theory or an explanation. Ok, leave the thread.
 

monti

Member
No, I haven't, nor do I intend to do so




Ok, then leave the thread instead of miserably failing to create conflict.

Parenthetically, asking a Jew about "these two God inspired gospels" is no less ignorant.

It didn't stop you joining the topic though did it, Jew or not?
I asked the forum and no religion in particular. You chose to jump in and have now admitted you had no intention of answering the question.
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Gabra

Here is a stronger alternative, more researched opinion.
No. Given the patriarchal bent of the culture and Matthew specifically referencing Joseph's father Jacob this is not a strong alternative. It is a weak attempt to explain away the obvious.

Tom
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Not at all. Why do you see querying these genealogical lists an as an attempt at ridicule? If those list have any validity at all, then I am sure the christian (or anyone else come to that) would be able to explain why these lists are(or at least appear to be) so blatantly contradictory?

And you still haven'y answered the question. So could I suggest you stay of the thread.

how many grandfathers do you have monti?


only 1?
 
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