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Genesis contradictions?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
All races today did not descend from Adam directly...they descended from Noah. :yes: Remember the flood?
Hi Deeje ~ You say that "All races" are descendants of Noah, does that include the Aztec's of Central America who lived there 8,000 years ago, and the Aborigines of Australia who have lived there for about 80,000 or so years? By the way when did the Genesis flood happen?:D

Sorry Arlanbb, got sidetracked on other posts.
The flood happened about 2,500 B.C.E. (around 4,500 years ago)
The story of the Flood is widespread in many cultures. It appears in the Americas; in Mexico during the period of the Aztecs in the 15th and 16th centuries C.E.

Aztec mythology spoke of four previous ages, during the first of which the earth was inhabited by giants. (That is a reminder of the Nephilim, the giants referred to in the Bible at Genesis 6:4.) It included a primeval flood legend in which “the waters above merge with those below, obliterating the horizons and making of everything a timeless cosmic ocean.” The god controlling rain and water was Tlaloc. However, his rain was not obtained cheaply but was given “in exchange for the blood of sacrificed victims whose flowing tears would simulate and so stimulate the flow of rain.” (Mythology—An Illustrated Encyclopedia) Another legend states that the fourth era was ruled by Chalchiuhtlicue, the water-goddess, whose universe perished by a flood. Men were saved by becoming fish!

The Incas had their Flood legends. British writer Harold Osborne states: “Perhaps the most ubiquitous features in South American myth are the stories of a deluge . . . Myths of a deluge are very widespread among both the highland peoples and the tribes of the tropical lowlands. The deluge is commonly connected with the creation and with an epiphany [manifestation] of the creator-god. . . . It is sometimes regarded as a divine punishment wiping out existing humankind in preparation for the emergence of a new race.”

The Maya in Mexico and Central America had their Flood legend that involved a universal deluge, or haiyococab, which means “water over the earth.” Catholic bishop Las Casas wrote that the Guatemalan Indians “called it Butic, which is the word which means flood of many waters and means the final judgment, and so they believe that another Butic is about to come, which is another flood and judgment, not of water, but of fire.” Many more flood legends exist around the world, but the few already quoted serve to confirm the kernel of the legend, the historical event related in the book of Genesis.

That the Flood did happen is seen in the fact that mankind never forgot it. All around the world, in locations as far apart as Alaska and the South Sea Islands, there are ancient stories about it. Native, pre-Columbian civilizations of America, as well as Aborigines of Australia, all have stories about the Flood. While some of the accounts differ in detail, the basic fact that the earth was flooded and only a few humans were saved in a man-made vessel comes through in nearly all versions. The only explanation for such a widespread acceptance is that the Flood was a historical event.

Jesus stated: “As they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man [Jesus Christ] will be.” (Matthew 24:37-39.)
I believe that Jesus was a real person...Jesus believed there was an earthwide flood and a man named Noah who survived it.

I don't believe that human beings have been on planet earth for as long as science claims. That is my belief.
You are free to believe whatever you wish on this topic. :)
 

Arlanbb

Active Member
Sorry Arlanbb, got sidetracked on other posts.
The flood happened about 2,500 B.C.E. (around 4,500 years ago)
The story of the Flood is widespread in many cultures. Yes - a story of a flood is widespread in many cultures but most of those cultures were NOT around when your biblical deluge happened in 2,500 BC, like the Aztecs [1300 to 1600AD] and the Incas [1200-1533AD] and the Mayas [2000BC to now]. So for them to have a story of a great flood had to be something that happened to them during their life time.
It appears in the Americas; in Mexico during the period of the Aztecs in the 15th and 16th centuries C.E.

Aztec mythology spoke of four previous ages, during the first of which the earth was inhabited by giants. (That is a reminder of the Nephilim, the giants referred to in the Bible at Genesis 6:4.) It included a primeval flood legend in which “the waters above merge with those below, obliterating the horizons and making of everything a timeless cosmic ocean.” The god controlling rain and water was Tlaloc. However, his rain was not obtained cheaply but was given “in exchange for the blood of sacrificed victims whose flowing tears would simulate and so stimulate the flow of rain.” (Mythology—An Illustrated Encyclopedia) Another legend states that the fourth era was ruled by Chalchiuhtlicue, the water-goddess, whose universe perished by a flood. Men were saved by becoming fish! The Aztecs were only around for about 300 years starting about 900 years ago so theirs was a local flood.

The Incas had their Flood legends. British writer Harold Osborne states: “Perhaps the most ubiquitous features in South American myth are the stories of a deluge . . . Myths of a deluge are very widespread among both the highland peoples and the tribes of the tropical lowlands. The deluge is commonly connected with the creation and with an epiphany [manifestation] of the creator-god. . . . It is sometimes regarded as a divine punishment wiping out existing humankind in preparation for the emergence of a new race.” The Incas also were around for about 350 years from 1200AD - 1533AD so again their story was local.

The Maya in Mexico and Central America had their Flood legend that involved a universal deluge, or haiyococab, which means “water over the earth.” Catholic bishop Las Casas wrote that the Guatemalan Indians “called it Butic, which is the word which means flood of many waters and means the final judgment, and so they believe that another Butic is about to come, which is another flood and judgment, not of water, but of fire.” Again the Mayas were way after your flood date and they must have had there own local floods that they recorded.

Many more flood legends exist around the world, but the few already quoted serve to confirm the kernel of the legend, the historical event related in the book of Genesis. As I have shown you above the flood legends they talk about were their local floods because most of the cultures were not in existance when the so called Genesis deluge happened.

That the Flood did happen is seen in the fact that mankind never forgot it. All around the world, in locations as far apart as Alaska and the South Sea Islands, there are ancient stories about it. Native, pre-Columbian civilizations of America, as well as Aborigines of Australia, all have stories about the Flood.All there flood stories do not prove that they were telling about the biblical deluge because most of those cultures were not around when your so called biblical deluge happened. There is a web site where you can read all these flood tails from all over the world and there are only about 4 that are very simular. You need to go to them and read them yourself, which I have done.


While some of the accounts differ in detail, the basic fact that the earth was flooded and only a few humans were saved in a man-made vessel comes through in nearly all versions. The only explanation for such a widespread acceptance is that the Flood was a historical event.

Jesus stated: “As they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man [Jesus Christ] will be.” (Matthew 24:37-39.)
I believe that Jesus was a real person...Jesus believed there was an earthwide flood and a man named Noah who survived it. Yes, Jesus might have said something like that but if he read the Hebrew scriptures and for all he knew the deluge story was true.

I don't believe that human beings have been on planet earth for as long as science claims. That is my belief.Yes ~ I understand your belief because I thought the same thing for 50 years but after seeing both sides of the information the Genesis story has no evidence of being true.:no:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Yes - a story of a flood is widespread in many cultures but most of those cultures were NOT around when your biblical deluge happened in 2,500 BC, like the Aztecs [1300 to 1600AD] and the Incas [1200-1533AD] and the Mayas [2000BC to now]. So for them to have a story of a great flood had to be something that happened to them during their life time.......
Yes ~ I understand your belief because I thought the same thing for 50 years but after seeing both sides of the information the Genesis story has no evidence of being true.:no:

You missed the point Arlan, these cultures did not have to have the flood 'happen in their lifetime'. The flood legend was carried with the ones who spread out from the Tower of Babel after the language was confused. It spread all over the world to many different cultures. The point was the universal 'kernel' of the story evident in so many different parts of the world seems to prove its occurrence.

If you want to disbelieve, as many here obviously do, there is little I can do about that. All are free to believe whatever they wish. I just think it's strange that some people get their funnies by rubbishing the beliefs of others. I wonder why they have nothing better to do than read our silly unscientific ramblings and get all hot and bothered about them. :slap:

To those who's sensibilities are offended...all I can say is, just don't read it!
Simple solution really. :D It is a 'religious' forum after all.

Deeje
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
You missed the point Arlan, these cultures did not have to have the flood 'happen in their lifetime'. The flood legend was carried with the ones who spread out from the Tower of Babel after the language was confused.
Childish nonsense. Stop it ... :slap:
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
You missed the point Arlan, these cultures did not have to have the flood 'happen in their lifetime'. The flood legend was carried with the ones who spread out from the Tower of Babel after the language was confused. It spread all over the world to many different cultures. The point was the universal 'kernel' of the story evident in so many different parts of the world seems to prove its occurrence.

But not when or why.

I myself have heard that the flood happened at the last ice age, about 12,000 years ago, because the ice sheets melted rapidly. This would have caused major floods among coastal civilizations.

There's also a theory that the Black Sea deluged rapidly about 7000 years ago, long before the Biblical event. This flood is the inspiration for tribal flood stories, which in tern inspired the Babylonian flood myth, which finally inspired the Hebrew story.

It's not that we don't want to believe; some people do want to believe, but we can't because of all the counter-evidence against these myths being true. It is better to believe in something based on hard, verified evidence than simply wanting to.
 

Arlanbb

Active Member
You missed the point Arlan, these cultures did not have to have the flood 'happen in their lifetime'. The flood legend was carried with the ones who spread out from the Tower of Babel after the language was confused. It spread all over the world to many different cultures. The point was the universal 'kernel' of the story evident in so many different parts of the world seems to prove its occurrence. Your so called "kernel" you talk about is not what you think it is. I bet you have never read all the different "Kernals" that are out there on the floods. I suggest you go to www.crystalinks.com/floodstories.html
and read some of those "flood stories", most are so rediclious they make you almost cry because they are so funny. Go ahead are read them but I don't think you really want to or it might help you see the truth about those "Kernals" of flood stories like the bible.:D
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Your so called "kernel" you talk about is not what you think it is. I bet you have never read all the different "Kernals" that are out there on the floods. I suggest you go to www.crystalinks.com/floodstories.html
and read some of those "flood stories", most are so rediclious they make you almost cry because they are so funny. Go ahead are read them but I don't think you really want to or it might help you see the truth about those "Kernals" of flood stories like the bible.:D

Arlan, I have read the flood stories. They are ridiculous because cultures embellished them and accredited things to their own gods and religion around the original story. The 'kernel' is the flood itself (sent as a punishment from God or the gods) and the fact that a small number of humans survived it in a structure. It was not a local flood but a global deluge, embedded in the psyche of those who descended from its survivors and spread abroad by those whose language was confused at the Tower of Babel.

If you want to quit on God because these things don't gel with what you want to believe, then he will not chase after you. He will allow you to leave and formulate whatever opinion makes your heart feel satisfied. However, Jeremiah warned that the heart is treacherous, it will justify anything it wants. Faith is based on knowing our Creator, not having a mere acquaintance with him, but really knowing him.

The clay cannot say to the potter, "you didn't get it right, try again." Or "I don't like that story....change it to please me."

The potter will do as he pleases with his own creation, like it or not. Just because some lack faith because the potter has been misrepresented, doesn't mean he has done anything wrong. The devil will never allow God or his worshipers to have 'good press'.:( We have to stick with him despite the fact that others desert him and try to get us to do the same. That's what true faith and loyalty is all about. :yes:

It's all about choices.

Deeje
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
But not when or why......
It's not that we don't want to believe; some people do want to believe, but we can't because of all the counter-evidence against these myths being true. It is better to believe in something based on hard, verified evidence than simply wanting to.

What would it take to convince you Riverwolf? :confused:
The Bible is specific as to the Flood’s being global. There is nothing in its record to limit the Flood to a particular area. Neither is there any indication that others besides Noah and his family survived.

Explaining the universal magnitude of the Flood, the Bible says: “The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered. Up to fifteen cubits the waters overwhelmed them and the mountains became covered.” (Gen. 7:19, 20) And, recording the effect upon all life, the account continues: “Thus [God] wiped out every existing thing that was on the surface of the ground, from man to beast, to moving animal and to flying creature of the heavens, and they were wiped off the earth; and only Noah and those who were with him in the ark kept on surviving.” (Gen. 7:23.)

Obviously the source of the floodwaters was not the moisture that is ordinarily found in the atmosphere today because it has been estimated that if all the atmospheric water were suddenly released as rain, it would cover the earth’s surface only to an average depth of less than two inches. There must be another explanation, then, for all this water, and the Bible gives it.

In its brief account of creation the Bible says regarding the forming of earth’s atmosphere: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse.”—Gen. 1:6, 7.

The waters “beneath” the atmospheric “expanse” were the waters on the surface of the earth. Whereas, “the waters . . . above the expanse” were vast quantities of moisture suspended high above the earth, evidently in the form of a heavy vapor. These waters surrounded our earth in its earlier history.

The book The Genesis Flood by John C. Whitcomb, Jr., and Henry M. Morris, makes this observation:
“The region above about 80 miles is very hot, over 100° F and possibly rising to 3000° F, and is in fact called the thermosphere for this reason. High temperature, of course, is the chief requisite for retaining a large quantity of water vapor. Furthermore, it is known that water vapor is substantially lighter than air and most of the other gases making up the atmosphere. There is thus nothing physically impossible about the concept of a vast thermal vapor blanket once existing in the upper atmosphere.”
It was to these suspended waters that the Christian apostle Peter referred when writing about the Noachian flood. He explains that there was “an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water,” and that “by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.” (2 Pet. 3:5, 6.)
Such a canopy of water suspended above the earth would greatly affect earth’s climate. The light and heat rays from the sun would be diffused by the vapor canopy, while this vast canopy would prevent heat from escaping. Such a “greenhouse effect” would thus produce a milder, more uniform climate earth wide. That earth’s climate was uniformly warm at one time is commonly recognized.
Of the now-frigid Antarctic continent an article in the French magazine Science et Vie, said:
“This inhuman land, this desert of ice, was once a green land where streams flowed among flowers, where birds sang in the trees.”

Around the Arctic Ocean there is a great swath of permanently frozen land, the greater part of which is covered with a frozen muck composed of sand, silt and earth. In an article entitled “Riddle of the Frozen Giants,” The Saturday Evening Post made this observation:
“The list of animals that have been thawed out of this mess would cover several pages. . . . They are all in the muck. These facts indicated water as the agency which engulfed the creatures. . . . many of these animals were perfectly fresh, whole and undamaged, and still either standing or at least kneeling upright. . . .
Vast herds of enormous, well-fed beasts not specifically designed for extreme cold, placidly feeding in sunny pastures, delicately plucking flowering buttercups at a temperature in which we would probably not even have needed a coat. Suddenly they were all killed without any visible sign of violence and before they could so much as swallow a last mouthful of food, and then were quick-frozen so rapidly that every cell of their bodies is perfectly preserved, despite their great bulk and their high temperature."

If God had used the insulating watery canopy as part of the floodwaters, the polar regions would suddenly be plunged into a deep freeze, trapping animals that then lived far north of their present habitat. The proof that this was a sudden event, and not something that occurred over a long period of time, is the fact that even the green grass they were eating was quickly deepfrozen in their mouths and stomachs, where it has been discovered in modern times. How consistent this evidence is with what the Bible says about the flood! :yes:

There is an explanation as to "when" and "why" too if you're interested....?:D

Deeje
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
What would it take to convince you Riverwolf? :confused:

Extra-Biblical evidence that there was a global deluge exactly 2,500 years ago that covered even the Himalayas. There is none.

The Bible is specific as to the Flood’s being global. There is nothing in its record to limit the Flood to a particular area. Neither is there any indication that others besides Noah and his family survived.

Explaining the universal magnitude of the Flood, the Bible says: “The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered. Up to fifteen cubits the waters overwhelmed them and the mountains became covered.” (Gen. 7:19, 20) And, recording the effect upon all life, the account continues: “Thus [God] wiped out every existing thing that was on the surface of the ground, from man to beast, to moving animal and to flying creature of the heavens, and they were wiped off the earth; and only Noah and those who were with him in the ark kept on surviving.” (Gen. 7:23.)

Obviously the source of the floodwaters was not the moisture that is ordinarily found in the atmosphere today because it has been estimated that if all the atmospheric water were suddenly released as rain, it would cover the earth’s surface only to an average depth of less than two inches. There must be another explanation, then, for all this water, and the Bible gives it.

Or a rapid glacial meltdown. The fact was that it was a flood; it didn't necessarily have to come from rain.

In its brief account of creation the Bible says regarding the forming of earth’s atmosphere: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse.”—Gen. 1:6, 7.

The waters “beneath” the atmospheric “expanse” were the waters on the surface of the earth. Whereas, “the waters . . . above the expanse” were vast quantities of moisture suspended high above the earth, evidently in the form of a heavy vapor. These waters surrounded our earth in its earlier history.

The book The Genesis Flood by John C. Whitcomb, Jr., and Henry M. Morris, makes this observation:
“The region above about 80 miles is very hot, over 100° F and possibly rising to 3000° F, and is in fact called the thermosphere for this reason. High temperature, of course, is the chief requisite for retaining a large quantity of water vapor. Furthermore, it is known that water vapor is substantially lighter than air and most of the other gases making up the atmosphere. There is thus nothing physically impossible about the concept of a vast thermal vapor blanket once existing in the upper atmosphere.”
It was to these suspended waters that the Christian apostle Peter referred when writing about the Noachian flood. He explains that there was “an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water,” and that “by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.” (2 Pet. 3:5, 6.)

No, the reason there's water above is because the sky is blue. That was the original justification; the sky looks like water. See Richard Elliot Friedman's Commentary on the Torah.

Such a canopy of water suspended above the earth would greatly affect earth’s climate. The light and heat rays from the sun would be diffused by the vapor canopy, while this vast canopy would prevent heat from escaping. Such a “greenhouse effect” would thus produce a milder, more uniform climate earth wide. That earth’s climate was uniformly warm at one time is commonly recognized.
Of the now-frigid Antarctic continent an article in the French magazine Science et Vie, said:
“This inhuman land, this desert of ice, was once a green land where streams flowed among flowers, where birds sang in the trees.”s

Yes it was... millions of years ago, when the temperature was warmer, and the continent was positioned further away from the South Pole. But it's been an ice cube for the past... tens of millions of years.

Around the Arctic Ocean there is a great swath of permanently frozen land, the greater part of which is covered with a frozen muck composed of sand, silt and earth. In an article entitled “Riddle of the Frozen Giants,” The Saturday Evening Post made this observation:
“The list of animals that have been thawed out of this mess would cover several pages. . . . They are all in the muck. These facts indicated water as the agency which engulfed the creatures. . . . many of these animals were perfectly fresh, whole and undamaged, and still either standing or at least kneeling upright. . . .
Vast herds of enormous, well-fed beasts not specifically designed for extreme cold, placidly feeding in sunny pastures, delicately plucking flowering buttercups at a temperature in which we would probably not even have needed a coat. Suddenly they were all killed without any visible sign of violence and before they could so much as swallow a last mouthful of food, and then were quick-frozen so rapidly that every cell of their bodies is perfectly preserved, despite their great bulk and their high temperature."

Ever see "The Day After Tomorrow?" Not a very good movie, but it addresses this very thing. This was caused by an Ice Age, not a flood.

Besides, I doubt the authenticity of the specimens. Give me some sources so I can check them.

(And by the way, that land is not permanently frozen; it will thaw out eventually.)

If God had used the insulating watery canopy as part of the floodwaters, the polar regions would suddenly be plunged into a deep freeze, trapping animals that then lived far north of their present habitat. The proof that this was a sudden event, and not something that occurred over a long period of time, is the fact that even the green grass they were eating was quickly deepfrozen in their mouths and stomachs, where it has been discovered in modern times. How consistent this evidence is with what the Bible says about the flood! :yes:

Yes... if such waters even existed, which there is no indication that they did a measly 4000 years ago. I could understand if we're talking hundreds of millions of years ago, but not merely thousands.

There is an explanation as to "when" and "why" too if you're interested....?:D

Please.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Extra-Biblical evidence that there was a global deluge exactly 2,500 years ago that covered even the Himalayas. There is none.

Yes... if such waters even existed, which there is no indication that they did a measly 4000 years ago. I could understand if we're talking hundreds of millions of years ago, but not merely thousands.
"There is an explanation as to "when" and "why" too if you're interested....? :D "
Please.

Riverwolf, we all know that not enough clear geologic evidence for the global Flood of Noah’s day is available to satisfy some people. (Yourself obviously included in that number.) Must we conclude that it did not happen? Historical events can be obscured by time and change. So is it not possible that thousands of years of geologic activity has effaced much of the evidence for the Flood?
We accept that the Bible contains statements that cannot be proved or disproved by available physical evidence. But should that surprise us? The Bible is not a science textbook. I believe however, that it is a book of truth. There is strong evidence that its writers were men of integrity and honesty. And when they touch on matters related to science, their words are accurate and completely free from ancient "scientific" theories that turned out to be mere myths.
e.g. Isaiah 40:22 reads: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth." When this text says that God sits above the circle of the earth, this harmonizes with the fact that the earth is circular, viewed from all directions, but that also makes it globular in form. The Hebrew word hhug here is defined in A Concordance of the Hebrew and Chaldee Scriptures by B. Davidson as "circle, sphere."

Greek mathematician and astronomer Eratosthenes is probably best known among astronomers. Why do they think so highly of him?

Eratosthenes was born about 276 B.C.E. and received some of his education in Athens, Greece. He spent a good part of his life, however, in Alexandria, Egypt, which at that time was under Greek rule.
Eratosthenes believed the earth to be spherical, and he knew that there are 360 degrees in a circle. So he divided 360 by the angle he had measured, 7.2. The result? His angle was one fiftieth of a full circle. He then deduced that the distance from Syene to Alexandria, or 5,000 stadia, must be equal to one fiftieth of the circumference of the earth. By multiplying 50 by 5,000, Eratosthenes came up with the figure of 250,000 stadia as the circumference of the earth.

How close did his figure come to present-day calculations? The figure of 250,000 stadia is equal to between 25,000 and 29,000 miles [40,000 and 46,000 km] in current measurements. Using orbiting spacecraft, astronomers measured the earth’s polar circumference and submitted the figure of 24,860 miles [40,008 km]. Thus, over 2,000 years ago, Eratosthenes came astoundingly close to the modern-day figure. His accuracy is all the more remarkable when you consider that the man used only a stick and geometric reasoning! Astronomers today use this geometric method as a basis for measuring distances outside our solar system.

Another example is in Job 26:7 where it says that God is "hanging the earth upon nothing." In the original Hebrew, the word for "nothing" (beli-mah´) used here literally means "not any thing," and this is the only time it occurs in the Bible. The picture it presents of an earth surrounded by empty space is recognized by scholars as a "remarkable vision," especially for its time.
This was not at all how most people envisioned the cosmos in those days. One ancient view was that the earth was supported by elephants standing on the back of a giant turtle! We laugh about that now, but that was the common belief. :D

Aristotle, a famous Greek philosopher and scientist of the fourth century B.C.E., taught that the earth could never hang in empty space. Instead, he taught that the heavenly bodies were each fixed to the surface of solid, transparent spheres. Sphere lay nestled within sphere. The earth was innermost; the outermost sphere held the stars. As the spheres revolved one within another, the objects on them—the sun, the moon, and the planets—moved across the sky. Again, we can be amused by this belief because we know better.
The Bible’s statement that the earth actually ‘hangs upon nothing’ predated Aristotle by over 1,100 years. Yet, Aristotle was considered the foremost thinker of his day. His views were still taught as fact almost 2,000 years after his death! As The New Encyclopædia Britannica says, in the 16th and 17th centuries C.E., Aristotle’s teachings "ascended to the status of religious dogma" in the eyes of the church.
So science is thus no enemy of the Bible. There is every reason to weigh what the Bible says with an open mind.

As for the 'when' and 'why', I will try to explain briefly. (Very difficult to do) but here goes.......:rolleyes:

God created material beings on a material earth but that doesn't mean that we are the only beings in existence. There is another realm spoken about in the Bible, inhabited by creatures superior to ourselves who have powers and abilities that we do not possess. (You may scoff at their existence, but I believe they have a great deal to do with why life on this planet is so tough at times.)

According to the Bible, a high ranking one of their number (and there are millions of them) abused his free will in order to obtain godlike status for himself by highkacking the human race right at the beginning. By implying that their Maker was witholding something that they should have, (the knowledge of good and evil) and by telling the woman that the penalty would not apply, he seduced the her into disobeying a simple command. This act of disobedience was then compounded by her offering the forbidden fruit to her mate. It carried the death penalty and when that was implemented, humans were removed from their paradise surroundings and denied access to "the tree of life", which guaranteed their unending life in the flesh. They began the death process that very day, just as God had said.

As mankind multiplied, things on earth were going downhill. A foreign element had been introduced...sin. (Literally meaning to "miss the mark" as in archery) Human behaviour was reduced to something, the likes of which God had not designed humans to experience. And he now had to contend with a rebellion in the spirit realm. These beings materialized human form and mated with human women, producing a hybrid giant, known in the Bible as the Nephilim. (Literally "fellers" or "ones who made others fall down")

To get his derailed purpose back on track, God told a single man about his plan to start again. His name was Noah. (He is a real person and was spoken about by Jesus.) This man and his family were the only ones God saw to be untarnished by the activities of these giant bullies and the men who were influenced by them. (Read Genesis 6) It took Noah about 40 years to construct a vessel to save himself and his family as well as the various species of animals. All the while Noah warned the people of God's intentions but all he got was ridicule. (sounds familiar) and when the time was up, God acted to eliminate the Nephilim (freaks of nature who should never have been born) and those who refused to listen to Noah's warning. Every living thing outside the ark perished. :sad:

The rebellious spirit beings who had left their proper place in the spirit realm were forced back there by the flood. Otherwise their flesh and blood bodies would have perished along with their monstrous children. And they have never been able to materialize again. That doesn't mean that they have not been active in human affairs, it just means that they do it invisibly because they are not material beings.

Their interest in perverted sex and violence has never diminished....the world is still full of it! And it continues to sink further and further into a moral morass.

God will act soon, just as he has promised. Only those who have the same faith and disposition as Noah will survive. Getting his purpose back on track was never going to be a walk in the park, it was always going to take time and effort....but the end result will be sooo worth it!!! :D

Now, I don't think for aone moment that you will believe a word I've said.....but you can't say you weren't warned. :slap:.....can you?

Deeje



 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
(Please note the use of ellipses to shorten the character number.)

...Must we conclude that it did not happen? Historical events can be obscured by time and change. So is it not possible that thousands of years of geologic activity has effaced much of the evidence for the Flood?

65 million years of geological change hasn't effaced the evidence for the K-T extinction.

We accept that the Bible contains statements that cannot be proved or disproved by available physical evidence. But should that surprise us? The Bible is not a science textbook. I believe however, that it is a book of truth...


That only works with the all-encompassing God. The anthropomorphic God of the OT is in one place: above the earth. There is nothing in that passage alone that tells me the earth is a globe.

Greek mathematician and astronomer Eratosthenes is probably best known among astronomers. Why do they think so highly of him?

Eratosthenes was born about 276 B.C.E. and received some of his education in Athens, Greece. He spent a good part of his life, however, in Alexandria, Egypt, which at that time was under Greek rule. ...


You knew more about this subject than I did. :clap Beautiful.

But that doesn't necessarily support Isaiah.

Another example is in Job 26:7 where it says that God is "hanging the earth upon nothing." In the original Hebrew, the word for "nothing" (beli-mah´) used here literally means "not any thing," ...

Beautiful. Clearly the people of this area knew much about astronomy.

Oh, wait. The Babylonians were great astronomers, if I remember correctly. I wouldn't be too surprised if they already knew about the spherical shape of the earth.

Aristotle, a famous Greek philosopher and scientist of the fourth century B.C.E., taught that the earth could never hang in empty space. Instead, he taught that the heavenly bodies were each fixed to the surface of solid, transparent spheres. Sphere lay nestled within sphere. The earth was innermost; the outermost sphere held the stars. As the spheres revolved one within another, the objects on them—the sun, the moon, and the planets—moved across the sky. Again, we can be amused by this belief because we know better.
But isn't that taught in Genesis 1? :confused:

The Bible’s statement that the earth actually ‘hangs upon nothing’ predated Aristotle by over 1,100 years. Yet, Aristotle was considered the foremost thinker of his day. His views were still taught as fact almost 2,000 years after his death! As The New Encyclopædia Britannica says, in the 16th and 17th centuries C.E., Aristotle’s teachings "ascended to the status of religious dogma" in the eyes of the church.
So science is thus no enemy of the Bible. There is every reason to weigh what the Bible says with an open mind.
Aristotle taught more than just science that we now know to be inaccurate. I actually praise him greatly for giving us Poetics, which, as an aspiring storyteller, I treat as gospel among texts on the subject.

As for the 'when' and 'why', I will try to explain briefly. (Very difficult to do) but here goes.......:rolleyes:

God created material beings on a material earth but that doesn't mean that we are the only beings in existence. There is another realm spoken about in the Bible, inhabited by creatures superior to ourselves who have powers and abilities that we do not possess. (You may scoff at their existence, but I believe they have a great deal to do with why life on this planet is so tough at times.)
I don't scoff their existence at all. Though we do almost certainly disagree as to their nature. ;)

According to the Bible, a high ranking one of their number (and there are millions of them) abused his free will in order to obtain godlike status for himself by highkacking the human race right at the beginning. By implying that their Maker was witholding something that they should have...
The story of the Fallen Angel Satan is not Biblical, and the Snake in Genesis 3 is nothing other than a snake. I see no reason to believe otherwise.

As mankind multiplied, things on earth were going downhill. A foreign element had been introduced...sin. (Literally meaning to "miss the mark" as in archery) Human behaviour was reduced to something, the likes of which God had not designed humans to experience. And he now had to contend with a rebellion in the spirit realm. These beings materialized human form and mated with human women, producing a hybrid giant, known in the Bible as the Nephilim. (Literally "fellers" or "ones who made others fall down")

To get his derailed purpose back on track, God told a single man about his plan to start again. His name was Noah. (He is a real person and was spoken about by Jesus.) This man and his family were the only ones God saw to be untarnished by the activities of these giant bullies and the men who were influenced by them. (Read Genesis 6) It took Noah about 40 years to construct a vessel to save himself and his family as well as the various species of animals. All the while Noah warned the people of God's intentions but all he got was ridicule. (sounds familiar) and when the time was up, God acted to eliminate the Nephilim (freaks of nature who should never have been born) and those who refused to listen to Noah's warning. Every living thing outside the ark perished. :sad:
Funny how the fossil record doesn't support this.

The rebellious spirit beings who had left their proper place in the spirit realm were forced back there by the flood. Otherwise their flesh and blood bodies would have perished along with their monstrous children. And they have never been able to materialize again. That doesn't mean that they have not been active in human affairs, it just means that they do it invisibly because they are not material beings.

Their interest in perverted sex and violence has never diminished....the world is still full of it! And it continues to sink further and further into a moral morass.

God will act soon, just as he has promised. Only those who have the same faith and disposition as Noah will survive. Getting his purpose back on track was never going to be a walk in the park, it was always going to take time and effort....but the end result will be sooo worth it!!! :D

Now, I don't think for aone moment that you will believe a word I've said.....but you can't say you weren't warned. :slap:.....can you?

Deeje
Nope. :D But I accept the possibility of my being wrong, and you're being right, and if I perish for it, so be it.

Believe me. If you're right, and I have to face YHWH and answer for my disbelief, I WILL NOT say: "I wasn't warned."

Rather, I'd ask him why He didn't deliver the message in a way that we would understand and accept.

And I disagree that the world has sunk into a moral pit... rather, I propose to you that it hasn't changed one bit in the course of human history. It's the same now as it was 3,500 years ago, when the Hebrews fashioned the Golden Calf.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Riverwolf, if you think that you know the truth...so be it. It is obvious you won't be convinced otherwise.

But I just wanted to ask about this comment though....

"The story of the Fallen Angel Satan is not Biblical, and the Snake in Genesis 3 is nothing other than a snake. I see no reason to believe otherwise."

The story of the fallen angel satan IS Biblical! The snake of Genesis is identified in Revelation.

Ezekiel 28:13-15 talks about the 'covering Cherub in the Garden of Eden'....who was satan.

"In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o·lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you."

Revelation 12:9, "So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."

Revelation 20:2, "And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years."

Perhaps you need to research your Bible a little more thoroughly......:rolleyes: :slap:

Deeje
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Riverwolf, if you think that you know the truth...so be it. It is obvious you won't be convinced otherwise.

I do read and enjoy the Bible greatly.

But it doesn't speak to me like the Upanishads and Bhagavad-Gita do.

But I just wanted to ask about this comment though....

"The story of the Fallen Angel Satan is not Biblical, and the Snake in Genesis 3 is nothing other than a snake. I see no reason to believe otherwise."

The story of the fallen angel satan IS Biblical! The snake of Genesis is identified in Revelation.


I don't acknowledge Revelation as part of Jewish literature, and therefore is separate. It's obvious John believed the snake to be Satan, so he wrote it into his prophecy.

HOWEVER, though I may be mistaken, I think the story of the fallen angel is part of Jewish tradition, and definitely is in the Qur'an.

Ezekiel 28:13-15 talks about the 'covering Cherub in the Garden of Eden'....who was satan.

"In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o·lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you."
Adam.

Revelation 12:9, "So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."

Revelation 20:2, "And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years."
See above.

Perhaps you need to research your Bible a little more thoroughly......:rolleyes: :slap:

Deeje
I don't regard the Bible as a single book; I see it as a small library of books, most of them independent of each other.

For example, I love the gospels, but I don't care for Paul's letters.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I do read and enjoy the Bible greatly.

But it doesn't speak to me like the Upanishads and Bhagavad-Gita do.

I don't acknowledge Revelation as part of Jewish literature, and therefore is separate. It's obvious John believed the snake to be Satan, so he wrote it into his prophecy.
So you can pick and choose what parts of the Bible are parts of the Bible huh? Are the other writings of the NT (apart from Revelation) "part of Jewish literature" then? How amazing it is that you are able to discern which bits belong in the Bible and which do not.. Do you have some special gift to discern this? Does God agree with you? :sarcastic

HOWEVER, though I may be mistaken, I think the story of the fallen angel is part of Jewish tradition, and definitely is in the Qur'an.

Mmmm, seeing as how it is in the Hebrew scriptures, I would also assume that it is the Qur'an and part of Jewish tradition.

"In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o·lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you."

Adam.

Since when was Adam a 'cherub'? Cherubs are spoken about in the Bible as high ranking angels. They are usually posted in the position of a guardian. (as in Eden guarding the way to the "tree of life".)
Seraphs are the only other angels spoken of as holding a special position, attending to Yahweh personally.

I don't regard the Bible as a single book; I see it as a small library of books, most of them independent of each other.

For example, I love the gospels, but I don't care for Paul's letters.

I regard the Bible as a library also because that is what it is. As to the various books being 'independent of each other', I would beg to differ on that point, Riverwolf.

Imagine asking 40 men from varied backgrounds to write a book, each writing one or more 'chapters'. The writers live in a number of lands and do not all know one another. Some do not know what the others have written. Would you expect a book thus produced to be harmonious? The Bible is! And given the circumstances noted above, its internal harmony is nothing less than profound.

After describing the creation of the heavens and the earth and the preparation of the earth as man’s home, the Genesis account takes up the beginnings of human history from the creation of the first man in 4026 B.C.E. The Sacred Writings then narrate important events down until shortly after 443 B.C.E. Then, after a gap of more than 400 years, they pick up the account again in 3 B.C.E., taking it on to about 98 C.E. , from a historical viewpoint, the Scriptures span a period of 4,123 years.

God, though using human writers, wove a dominant theme through the 66 books that make up the Bible. That theme is the vindication of God's Sovereign right to rule mankind and the realization of his loving purpose by means of his Kingdom. The vital conclusion to all of this is recorded in the Revelation! It is the finale.:yes:

I am amused that people like yourself can 'pigeon hole' so many things and come up with their very own religion. How many other people subscribe to your theories? Or are you all alone in your pew? :(
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
So you can pick and choose what parts of the Bible are parts of the Bible huh? Are the other writings of the NT (apart from Revelation) "part of Jewish literature" then? How amazing it is that you are able to discern which bits belong in the Bible and which do not.. Do you have some special gift to discern this? Does God agree with you? :sarcastic

No, just which parts I enjoy.

I told you, I view the Bible as a library. Like all libraries, there are books I enjoy, books I don't particularly enjoy, and books I don't acknowledge. It's not about whether or not I think "they should be there." They are, and that's that. I can choose to believe them, or not. I can also mourn the loss of certain writings that I think should have been included, or just accept the fact that they weren't, and seek them elsewhere. (Or puzzle over the fact that different schools of Christianity have different Old Testaments. lol Did you know the Ethiopian Bible includes the Book of Enoch and Book of Jubilees?)

As for whether or not God agrees with me... how should I know? :shrug:

Mmmm, seeing as how it is in the Hebrew scriptures, I would also assume that it is the Qur'an and part of Jewish tradition.

The Qur'an speaks of Iblis, the Djinn who refused to prostrate himself before Adam when commanded. He is interchangeably referred to as Iblis and Satan. This story does not appear in the Bible, as far as I know.

Since when was Adam a 'cherub'? Cherubs are spoken about in the Bible as high ranking angels. They are usually posted in the position of a guardian. (as in Eden guarding the way to the "tree of life".)
Seraphs are the only other angels spoken of as holding a special position, attending to Yahweh personally.

I misread the "Cherub" part.

But does Ezekiel go into any more detail? I ask because stories of celestial beings falling from God's grace is prominent in extra-canonical stories, such as the Book of Enoch.

I regard the Bible as a library also because that is what it is. As to the various books being 'independent of each other', I would beg to differ on that point, Riverwolf.

Imagine asking 40 men from varied backgrounds to write a book, each writing one or more 'chapters'. The writers live in a number of lands and do not all know one another. Some do not know what the others have written. Would you expect a book thus produced to be harmonious? The Bible is! And given the circumstances noted above, its internal harmony is nothing less than profound.

After describing the creation of the heavens and the earth and the preparation of the earth as man’s home, the Genesis account takes up the beginnings of human history from the creation of the first man in 4026 B.C.E. The Sacred Writings then narrate important events down until shortly after 443 B.C.E. Then, after a gap of more than 400 years, they pick up the account again in 3 B.C.E., taking it on to about 98 C.E. , from a historical viewpoint, the Scriptures span a period of 4,123 years.

God, though using human writers, wove a dominant theme through the 66 books that make up the Bible. That theme is the vindication of God's Sovereign right to rule mankind and the realization of his loving purpose by means of his Kingdom. The vital conclusion to all of this is recorded in the Revelation! It is the finale.:yes:

I am amused that people like yourself can 'pigeon hole' so many things and come up with their very own religion. How many other people subscribe to your theories? Or are you all alone in your pew? :(

I always have preferred to be alone. ^_^

However, I don't know if I said this to you or not, I am considering converting to a form of Vedanta, which is a school of Sanatana Dharma (A.K.A Hinduism.) The Upanishads and Bhagavad-Gita have spoken to me far more profoundly than any other scripture. (Except maybe the Sermon on the Mount, one of the finest collections of Jesus's teachings. ;))

I am going to disagree that God wrote the entire Bible. I believe that it is entirely the work of men, though many of the books may have been INSPIRED by God (big difference), and I propose to you that the "harmony" is due to the so-called "translations" forcing the harmony in their choices of words.

I will also argue that there are many books and writings that aren't Biblical but inspired by God. (Such as the very inspiring poem "Footprints.")

I propose to you this: if possible (if it's not possible, then it's okay), try to learn how to read the Bible in its original Hebrew/Greek, and tell me if you still see the harmony. If that's not possible, I reccommend picking up Robert Alter's "The Five Books of Moses: A Translation With Commentary." Read not just the text, but the introductions and the footnotes. (I warn you though, one of the sections of the introduction is 40 pages long... but it's the one I think needs most to be read! :()
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
As for whether or not God agrees with me... how should I know? :shrug:

You may not know, but do you care? I would assume that my worship was a waste of time if I didn't think God approved of it.

But does Ezekiel go into any more detail? I ask because stories of celestial beings falling from God's grace is prominent in extra-canonical stories, such as the Book of Enoch.

Ezekiel goes into details about all sorts of things...he was a prophet after all.
Extra-canonical works can be very interesting reading.

I always have preferred to be alone. ^_^
Funny, but God's people have always been out of kilter with the rest of humanity, spiritually speaking. Seldom alone individually though, apart from the days of the Patriarchs like Job, maybe. (No one like him in all the earth)

However, I don't know if I said this to you or not, I am considering converting to a form of Vedanta, which is a school of Sanatana Dharma (A.K.A Hinduism.) The Upanishads and Bhagavad-Gita have spoken to me far more profoundly than any other scripture. (Except maybe the Sermon on the Mount, one of the finest collections of Jesus's teachings. ;))

I am going to disagree that God wrote the entire Bible. I believe that it is entirely the work of men, though many of the books may have been INSPIRED by God (big difference), and I propose to you that the "harmony" is due to the so-called "translations" forcing the harmony in their choices of words.
You are free to convert to whatever your heart tells you is truth, Riverwolf. I would personally find the idolatry a bit of a problem as well as the polytheism. But I agree that God "inspired" the writing of the Bible. He used human secretaries however. The Sermon on the Mount is outstanding, there is no doubt.

I will also argue that there are many books and writings that aren't Biblical but inspired by God. (Such as the very inspiring poem "Footprints.")
There are many ideas and inspirational things written by humans who do not have the direction of God's spirit. Like humanitarians they have a way of looking at things that strike a chord with the hearts fellow humans. I love the poem "Footprints" myself.

I propose to you this: if possible (if it's not possible, then it's okay), try to learn how to read the Bible in its original Hebrew/Greek, and tell me if you still see the harmony. If that's not possible, I reccommend picking up Robert Alter's "The Five Books of Moses: A Translation With Commentary." Read not just the text, but the introductions and the footnotes. (I warn you though, one of the sections of the introduction is 40 pages long... but it's the one I think needs most to be read! :()

I cannot promise you this, but I have put 40 years of study into the Bible. To read everything that people recommend to me would use up precious time I simply do not have. :sorry1:

Deeje
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
You may not know, but do you care?

I don't add human characteristics, such as emotions and feelings, to God.

Funny, but God's people have always been out of kilter with the rest of humanity, spiritually speaking. Seldom alone individually though, apart from the days of the Patriarchs like Job, maybe. (No one like him in all the earth)
Indeed. :D But if you look at the spiritual teachings of the other religions, you'll find that there isn't much of a difference.

You are free to convert to whatever your heart tells you is truth, Riverwolf. I would personally find the idolatry a bit of a problem as well as the polytheism. But I agree that God "inspired" the writing of the Bible. He used human secretaries however. The Sermon on the Mount is outstanding, there is no doubt.
First of all, Hinduism is NOT polytheistic. The devas (often mistranslated as "gods") are just celestial beings, like the angels or Catholic Saints, or personifications of natural forces. I personally won't be worshiping them; adding human characteristics to nature, in my opinion, is good only for poetry. (And, in my opinion, God is the same way.)

As for idolatry, I won't be worshiping statues. Such is not a requirement in Hinduism. (I'm not a big fan of idolatry, either.)

Here's a verse from one of the Upanishads, and here's what Gandhi said about it: "If all the Upanishad and all the other scriptures happened all of a sudden to be reduced to ashes, and if only the first verse of the Ishopanishad were left in the memory of the Hindus, Hinduism would live forever."

The Lord is enshrined in the hearts of all.
The Lord is the supreme Reality.
Rejoice in Him through renunciation.
Covet nothing; all belong to the Lord.

There are many ideas and inspirational things written by humans who do not have the direction of God's spirit. Like humanitarians they have a way of looking at things that strike a chord with the hearts fellow humans. I love the poem "Footprints" myself.
I guess it depends on whether or not one believe's God's spirit is in everybody already. I personally think it's just a matter of realizing it.

I cannot promise you this, but I have put 40 years of study into the Bible. To read everything that people recommend to me would use up precious time I simply do not have. :sorry1:

Deeje
Very well. ^_^

Believe me, 40 years is impressive enough.

Out of curiosity, which translation do you use predominantly use?
 
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