Genesis genealogy: datings, & Masoretic vs Septuagint

[gnostic]

Lion D' ea: May I ask brother, are you referring how the creation was happened in Genesis 1:1-3?

Actually, I'm referring to chapters 1 to 3...not verses, if that's what you mean.

The 2 of main pages in Dark Mirrors of Heaven (Lilith and Gnostic Cosmogony) focused on themes relating to chapters 1-3.

I was providing different sources (works) of creation myth. To provide different versions to the more known stories in Genesis.

I don't know if you ever visit my website Timeless Myths. If you have, then you would see that I try to read different versions of the same myth. Like my Creation webpage, from Greek myths. Although the main myth I had covered was from Hesiod's Theogony, I had also covered other creation myths from Homer, Apollonius of Rhodes, Diodorus Siculus and the Orphic cosmogony.

Genesis itself is well known. So I was trying to provide summaries of other creation myths, written by different people at different times.

 

[gnostic]

Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible.

thanks, jay.

looks good...good enough to include in my library.

 

[LioneDea]

Actually, I'm referring to chapters 1 to 3...not verses, if that's what you mean.

The 2 of main pages in Dark Mirrors of Heaven (Lilith and Gnostic Cosmogony) focused on themes relating to chapters 1-3.

I was providing different sources (works) of creation myth. To provide different versions to the more known stories in Genesis.

I don't know if you ever visit my website Timeless Myths. If you have, then you would see that I try to read different versions of the same myth. Like my Creation webpage, from Greek myths. Although the main myth I had covered was from Hesiod's Theogony, I had also covered other creation myths from Homer, Apollonius of Rhodes, Diodorus Siculus and the Orphic cosmogony.

Genesis itself is well known. So I was trying to provide summaries of other creation myths, written by different people at different times.

Lione D' ea: First of brother Genesis 1, 2, and 3 the writer of that book is inspired by the spirit of God. II Timothy 3:16 Read:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (King James Version)

Lione D' ea: The verse saith that: All scripture which write down the author is inspired of God to profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and for instruction in righteousness wherefore Bible teach us correction meant to say it is not a myth made by man's opinion. What is the correction which Bible teach us about in Genesis. Let us read which Bible teach us about the creation happened I Corinthians 11:14 it say's:

Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?


Lione D' ea: I want you to notify the word nature in the passage above brother which Bible teach us that there is nature involved in the creation of everything concern in Genesis. What is the nature which lead us to believe it is not myth, let us read Genesis 1:1 and forward:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Lione D' ea: Did you see the word AND in the passage brother, it represent there as time period which it takes thousands of years, millions of years and billion of years which nature involved in the creation happened mean to say there is gap that the first which God made was heavens before the earth where made. The fact is our heaven which we seen is the youngest part compare in other heavens proving Genesis is not just a ordinary story, the first God created was heaven before earth, and when the earth was made what follow it say's:

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Lione D' ea: At this period heavens are made and when the earth was made it was without form, void and darkness upon the surface. Follow that it say's:

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


Lione D' ea: This is not a Sun. The verse referring as Nebula and etc. which will light upon in the heavens including the earth. Follow that.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


Lione D' ea: The first day mention of the verse is not day which in earth with had 24 hours and 7 days. Other sect’s religion haughty blatant liars are misleading people in assuming that God created the universe in six days, 6000 years ago, allegedly, according to the Bible. They call it anti-scientific nonsense! Their ignorance of the scriptures and its language is obviously displayed in their presumption that the earth was created 6000 years ago. There are enough scientific evidences that will readily prove to an understanding mind that the earth has existed billions of years ago. The presence of diamond on earth and other precious stones and metals like gold and silver proves the antiquity of the earth.
Most diamonds that we see today were formed millions (if not billions) of years ago. Powerful magma eruptions brought the diamonds to the surface, creating kimberlite pipes.

Source: (HowStuffWorks "How Diamonds Work")

Lione D' ea: Carbon Chemistry & Diamond Crystal Structure
The word ‘diamond’ derives from Greek adamao, meaning ‘I tame’ or ‘I subdue’ or the related word adamas, which means ‘hardest steel’ or ‘hardest substance’. Everyone knows diamonds are hard and beautiful, but did you know a diamond could be the oldest material you might own? While the rock in which diamonds are found may be 50 to 1,600 million years old, the diamonds themselves are approximately 3.3 billion years old. This discrepancy is because the volcanic magma that solidifies into rock where diamonds are found did not create them, but only transported the diamonds from the Earth’s mantle to the surface. Diamonds also may be formed under the high pressures and temperatures at the site of meteorite impacts. The diamonds formed during an impact may be relatively ‘young’, but some meteorites contain star dust, debris from the death of a star, which may include diamond crystals. One such meteorite is known to contain tiny diamonds over 5 billion years old. These diamonds are older than our solar system!

Source: (Chemistry of Diamond)

Lione D' ea: THE LANGUAGE OF THE BIBLE. God was frank enough to say that His thinking is far more superior to our thinking Let us read Isaiah 55:8-9 it say's:

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Lione D' ea: As it is very hard for an ordinary person to learn and comprehend the language of a lawyer in the courtroom, it will be very hard also for an ordinary mind as lowly as the earth to comprehend the language of the HIGHEST. A wise reader of the Bible must read it with caution and carefulness, especially, the words which God uttered from His very mouth. There are words in the Bible that were said by humans (believing and non-believing i.e.

Psalms 53:1 “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good”), by angels, by demons, and the devil. Sorting all these requires patience and understanding, otherwise, you will be counted as one of those whom the apostle Peter said: perverting or wrestling the word of God.

(2 Peter 3:16-17) “As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.”

 

[LioneDea]

Lione D' ea: This is surely what is being done by these imaginary people!
Nowhere in the Scriptures can you find a verse that the universe or the earth was created only 6000 years ago. I challenge these liars. Come out with a verse that proves your point, and I guarantee you there is none! Maybe these people were mislead by the belief of the Seventh Day Adventist Church and the Jehovah’s Witnesses that creation took place only 6000 years ago. After all, they do not believe in God, so their presumption that the universe and the earth was created only 6000 years ago must have been picked up by them from the ‘trash’ doctrines of these sects. Witnesses believe that Adam was created in 4026 B.C. and that human beings have been allotted 6000 years of existence until Armageddon and the beginning of the millennium. This figure is based on a “creative week” in which each of six days is equal to 1,000 years, with the Sabbath or seventh day being the beginning of the millennium. Simple arithmetic gives 1975 as the year Armageddon would arrive. Franz explained that Armageddon would actually come 6000 years after Eve’s creation. But when 1975 came and went, the Witnesses had to “adjust” their chronology to cover up a failed prediction. They accomplished this by maintaining that no one knew exactly how long after Adam’s creation Eve came on the scene. Franz said that it was months-even years. Hence he was able to “stretch” the 1975 date…

Source: (History of the Jehovah's Witnesses | Catholic Answers)

Lione D' ea: Here is a vast span of time — according to Scripture chronology, about 6,000 years since creation — and the people still have not been returned to the garden of Eden…( ref. SEVENT DAY ADVENTIST BELIEVE pp 76-77)
If they will deny that they have picked this up from the garbage can, they must have used their own miscalculations to presume that the world or the universe was created only 6000 years ago. THE TRUTH, One must notice in the account of creation in Genesis, the mention of the word ‘day’ (yome in Hebrew: From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): – age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.)
The word ‘yome’ in Hebrew may mean a literal day as we know it on earth, or an age. Genesis 1:3-5 Read:

“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”


Lione D' ea: The first day being mentioned here is not an earth day which is literally a 24 hour day! Why? Because earth days came only on the fourth day of creation! read Genesis 1:14-19 it say's:

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.”

Lione D' ea: We must notice in the preceding verses the mention of ‘two great lights’: one, to rule the day; and the other to rule the night. The verse speaks of the sun and the moon. They are two great lights relative to the earth, because if we are to look beyond our solar system, the light of our sun, our star, is not so great compared to LBV 1806-20, which could be 40 million times brighter than our sun; and is 45,000 light-years away.

Source: (Star May Be Biggest, Brightest Yet Discovered | SpaceRef - Your Space Reference)

 

[LioneDea]

Lione D' ea: An intelligent reader of the Bible, a real Christian, is aware that the account of creation in Genesis does not tell us only of the creation of the earth, but the entire universe. Definitely, the first day mentioned in verse 3 is not an earth day. An elementary student of astronomy knows that even in our solar system, there are different days. A day in Venus is made up of 243 earth days! (promotega.org) And there are more galaxies and, maybe, solar systems in the entire universe much much more than we can imagine. For this reason, it is foolish to conclude that the entire creation took only six earth days and that it happened only 6000 years ago. As mentioned earlier, the term ‘day’ used in Hebrew may mean an age or a vast span of time. In fact, the six days of creation were summed up to a ‘day’. Genesis 2:4 Read:

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens… (Emphasis mine)

Lione D' ea: God is infinite. A day is like a thousand years to Him; and a thousand years, a day. There is not much difference between a thousand years and a day for Him. II Peter 3:8 Read:

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Lione D' ea: The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists are wrong in interpreting that one day with the Lord is a thousand years for man. It is not in the verse! What the verse says is: that a thousand years and a day are just the same with the Lord. So, it is wrong to conclude that the entire process of creation happened within 6 earth days, or 6000 years only 6000 years ago. Who told these imaginary people that the Bible contains anti-scientific nonsense? It is not the Bible that speaks of nonsense. The Bible is full of scientific informations even before they were discovered by man. This is what our belief brother, chapter 3 brother is very broad topic because there is spiritual matter involved there, I hope you understand my simple English and if I'm wrong which it not match in your referring hopefully you understand in my lacking.


(end.)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

thanks, jay.

looks good...good enough to include in my library.

It is excellent. You'll appreciate it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Lione D' ea, your babbling is wildly off-topic. Please pollute elsewhere.

 

[gnostic]

As interesting and baffling as your posts are, Lione d' ea, I must stress that this thread is not about the creation, but about the comparison of ancient and medieval texts of the Hebrew scriptures (that were in Hebrew and in translations of other languages, but more specifically the genealogy in Genesis.

I am more interested in the age of when each became father (which allow me to calculate the generation of each patriarch), and in the age when they die. I don't care if the numbers (years) are real or not, or embellished or not, because that not really the issue of this topic or in my webpage - Timeline of the Patriarchs (TotP).

My calculation of the generations, allow me to get framework of what-happen-when in the Genesis, like when the heir or successor was born, when he died, when the Flood occurred, etc. But I am not comparing this with historical or archaeological evidences. To me the narratives of Genesis are view only in purely literary events.

This timeline and my calculations were based on the Masoretic Text (MT), which is the source of many modern translations in English. But for comparison purpose I had included my table of calculations with the Greek Septuagint bible for the genealogy table.

So this topic is about the comparisons of texts. The only historical values that I am interested in this topic:

• are the origins of the texts or manuscripts (MT, Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls, etc),
• why they (manuscripts) were written? (purposes)
• who wrote them?
• and most important of all, why are the age different, between different texts?

And since I have started, I have manage to find 2 other texts, which I can compare to the MT and the Septuagint.

The Samaritan Torah is every interesting because some of the years are the same as the MT, while others are more like the Septuagint.

And my questions were with regards to which of these were closer to the original source of Genesis? Why are they different?

 

[gnostic]

Are there any (English) translation to Genesis 5 and 11 from the Dead Sea Scrolls?

None of the translations I've looked at, have these chapters, because the translators are more interested in those writings not found in the Jewish Bible. I'm wondering if the numbers (in years) in the DSS support the MT or the Septuagint.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Are there any (English) translation to Genesis 5 and 11 from the Dead Sea Scrolls?

None of the translations I've looked at, have these chapters, because the translators are more interested in those writings not found in the Jewish Bible. I'm wondering if the numbers (in years) in the DSS support the MT or the Septuagint.

Are there specific verses of interest?

 

[gnostic]

Well, this topic is about the differences in genealogical years found in the MT and Septuagint. Example, Adam was father of Seth at 130 in MT while the Septuagint say 230, etc.

I would like to know which DSS would fall under?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You do realize that both proto-Masoretic and 'Septuagint-like' witnesses among the DSS. I can think of no reason why one should not expect both figures to be represented.

 

[gnostic]

I don't mind if DSS version are completely different to the 2 manuscripts.

I have looked at the Samaritan Torah, and from Adam to Enoch, they are the same as those in MT, but from Arpachshad to Serug, the generations are the same as that of Septuagint.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't mind if DSS version are completely different to the 2 manuscripts.

OK

I have looked at the Samaritan Torah, and from Adam to Enoch, they are the same as those in MT, but from Arpachshad to Serug, the generations are the same as that of Septuagint.

Therefore?

 

[gnostic]

Therefore?

I am just curious...sort of like comparative studies of scriptures. There is nothing wrong with that, is it?

And I wouldn't mind include a supplementary table to the genealogy chart on my webpage, for anyone to view.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am just curious...sort of like comparative studies of scriptures. There is nothing wrong with that, is it?

Of course not. It just seems to me that the comparison of dates for reasons other than an attempt to trace transmission is text study at it's most shallow. So, for example, what information do you derive from the differences found in the Genesis 5:3?

• Why might they be different?
• Which is the more 'accurate'?
• Which is the more 'authentic'?
• < etc. >

I really do not wish to dissuade you from pursuing your hobby.

 

[gnostic]

Of course not. It just seems to me that the comparison of dates for reasons other than an attempt to trace transmission is text study at it's most shallow.

I don't see it that way.

I really do not wish to dissuade you from pursuing your hobby.

It was a hobby, when I started my website Timeless Myths, in 1999.

I was studying for my bachelor at that time, in Computer Science. At that time, I was only studying my last couple of subjects, part-time, and had a lot of time. Before that I had learned to design webpages in my multimedia subject. Because I had more free time, I decided to create my own website, when I found a free web-hosting services. I was going to create a tribute site to a few of my favorite fantasy authors, but changed my mind, and decided to create website on Greek mythology.

I had fascination of mythology and legend, since I was kid. I love stories, especially myths. But didn't go very deep in learning about it, until I purchase my first translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey, when I was a teenager. Had a tiny collection of books, but had to put my interests aside, once I started working. But when I was 30, I went back to uni, and to study that bachelor I already mentioned earlier.

I don't have any qualification on mythology or classical literature, but I started reading a lot and doing a lot research. My tiny library grew increasingly larger each week, as did my website on Greek myth. I also took interested in Norse, so I began reading Norse literature, and began adding that that to my website, followed by Celtic myth. One year later, I added a section on Arthurian page. The site just kept growing for 8-9 years, because I adding new pages, new myths.

The reason why I am telling you this, is that my interested in mythology, also brought renew interest in the Genesis story. I was nearly baptised twice when I was a teenager, one of them was my sister's church. But lost interested in the church when I got into heated arguement with the pastor.

I approached Genesis creation narrative, as I do with Greek mythology, or Norse or Celtic...i love myths, so i was interested in finding new sources. Which is why I look into gnostic texts, rabbinic legends, and apocryphal texts that relate to biblical creation story in genesis.

I'm agnostic. And I will admit that I'm only an amateur researcher & scholar when it comes to literature and religions. I approaches myths, including that of genesis, not with belief, but as (amateurish) student of literature - that is mythological literature.

You make think I am being shallow for approaching your faith without piety or without the depth you believe I should have, but I'll assure you that my passion for myths is real.

If you can't or won't help me, then no biggie. I am not going to hold it against you, if you won't.

But I would appreciate it if you can help, even if you just tell me that parts of DSS Genesis don't exist (I'd just move on if there were nothing anyone can help me with my request).

If you see it to be shallow then I don't think I can convince you otherwise, and I won't trouble you further.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

145. A Biblical Chronology: 4Q559

If you see it to be shallow then I don't think I can convince you otherwise, and I won't trouble you further.

Early in the transmission of the biblical books, anonymous scribal copyists began to calculate the chronology of various events about which the Bible gives numerical information. For example, these scholars began to add up the numbers given in Genesis. They soon realized that, as presented in text that had come down to them, these numbers imply that some of Noah's ancestors lived through the Flood. Yet Genesis explicitly says the opposite: none survived other than those on the ark. The scholars solved the problem straightforwardly and efficiently. They simply changed the numbers. The unchanged version of the numbers survives in the text of the Greek version of the Old Testament known as the Septuagint (Gen. 5). For the most part our modern Bibles translate the traditional text and therefore present the changed numbers.

- Dead Sea Scrolls: A new Translation, pg. 564

It's more than comparing numbers.

 

[gnostic]

145. A Biblical Chronology: 4Q559

Thanks, jayhawker.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thanks, jayhawker.

You're welcome. And please don't overlook the fact that all of my recent comments should be read in the context of the following:

Much of it is, indeed, very nicely done - certainly deserving an A for presentation.

But the fact remains that not too great a deal should be made numbers which are often formulaic and contrived (the multiples of 20 scattered throughout the Tanakh, the ages of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc.).

The clear presentation of data is occasionally elegant and always useful, but the value and the challenge is always one of detecting the information derivable from the data.