Genesis & Science - Friend or Foe?

[shunyadragon]

Science, or should I say, scientists have only recently discovered many things. For example, water beneath the earth.

A word of caution as to what scientists have discovered concerning 'water beneath the earth.' Finding water under the earth has been found by humans for millennia in groundwater, and caves. The water found recently by scientists is not free water it is water tied up in rock.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Face/palm!!..
I said Mysteries are meant for making true senses of its True meaning.

You than replied with exact words:

“So you are claiming that God deliberately lied? Now that makes no sense at all.”

Now Tell me!..can you see where it got ‘shifted’????

How has making senses of something become a lie???
Figure it out!..mr simple.

A couple of points. Name calling is against the rules here. People that cannot follow a conversation are not allowed to face palm. Please pay attention, YOU are the one that says that God is lying. You do not seem to realize that.

And I told you..you WILL find it’s proof and evidence of none!..what more do you want me to say?

You should be honest and admit that all you have is drivel and empty threats. Are you afraid when a five year old threatens you with the monster under his bed?

Yes..it does make sense you have come to that!..and than so what!..what is your plan now?
Live happily ever after? I guess..
Good luck!

What are you talking about? Unlike you I do not believe in an immoral myth.

So than back to your MISTAKE you’ve made earlier..I want to make it clear with you where you are going wrong in looking for evidence.

There was no mistake on my part. Like it or not certain claims means that we could observe certain effects.

Mystery like I said is making senses of what its true meaning..to come to a conclusion of it being a lie means you did NOT find it!
And if it comes to that..than its purpose for that will NOT BE for GOD..this was the GENIUS work of it.

Once again, no. You are the one that is claiming that God lied. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Mystery is placed to hide something important!..do you know what it is?
It’s a CODE!.. yes! A CODE!
Now Please tell me at least you understand how codes work?

Yes, I do know how codes work. You don't. There is no code in the Bible. Claims of "Bible codes" have been repeatedly refuted. But if you want to claim that there is one there the burden of proof is upon you.

Then we both can agree it’s a difficult process of solving. You have become blinded by it’s story..and like I said it was purposely done for that reason for many like you WILL NOT get access to it..sorry to break it to you, it’s WAY more than what you know.
For you WILL not know how to test this opportunity!.you have become blind like its science methods of it as well. i know you’ll think all this is nonsense but hey guess what! Nonsenses will lurk within you and your living because of it.

Nope, I am not the blind one here. Now you are back to claiming that your God is an evil monster. This brings your morals into question. Why would you worship an immoral monster?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The universe is observed to be expanding. Perhaps that is not mentioned in Genesis. The release of a tremendous amount of energy at creation, is not mentioned in Genesis, but elsewhere in the Bible, and it gives the reason and source of that energy. The opinions and beliefs as to what caused the BB is not science - good nor bad.

You seem to have ignored the contradictions given you, I've learned something that describes this phenomenon.

Once somebody has accepted a notion on faith, a filter called a faith-based confirmation bias can form that allows in only that which seems to support the faith-based idea. Nothing else can be seen. No contradictory evidence gets through.

As counterintuitive as this may seem, there is an excellent description of this phenomenon from geologist and former young earth creationist (YEC) Glenn Morton, now an old earth creationist (OEC), of his own experience encased in such a confirmation bias. He anthropomorphizes the experience by equating it to a demon like Maxwell's demon, one which sits at the portal to his inner mind and decides what will enter and what will not. This is from Morton:

"When I was a YEC, I had a demon that did similar things for me that Maxwell's demon did for thermodynamics. Morton's demon was a demon who sat at the gate of my sensory input apparatus and if and when he saw supportive evidence coming in, he opened the gate. But if he saw contradictory data coming in, he closed the gate. In this way, the demon allowed me to believe that I was right and to avoid any nasty contradictory data.

"The demon makes its victim feel very comfortable as there is no contradictory data in view ... one thing that those unaffected by this demon don't understand is that the victim is not lying about the data. The demon only lets his victim see what the demon wants him to see and thus the victim, whose sensory input is horribly askew, feels that he is totally honest about the data."​

I find Morton sincere and credible. If he says that he was blind to this process, as counterintuitive as that claim may seem, I believe him. And this is how I now view most creationists and other religious apologists telling me that they see no evidence for biological evolution, for example, even when it is handed to them. I count you among them.

I think that they are wrong, but not lying. They really cannot see the evidence. And from their distorted vantage point, they find the rational skeptic's position unbelievable and insincere. They think were just intransigently resisting God, inventing contradictions that aren't there, refusing to see a god that is so obvious to them.

And the skeptic calls the apologist dishonest. If Morton is right, that is an unfair description of what is going on in the apologist's head.

You mean the fact that the bible states that there was a global flood, while there is ZERO geological evidence that a global flood ever occurred? That's what's called a CONFLICT between what the bible says and what good science has determined.

If Morton is correct, there is no way to make him see that. If a man can't or won't impartially and dispassionately consider what others deem a compelling argument and its supporting evidence, then he can't be reached. He's locked in by faith that cannot or will not see contradictory evidence.

Does this really happen in the world? Apparently so.

There is no conflict here either.

Yes, there is. You're just simply unable to see it. See above

Here's an interesting problem. One group of people claims to see something another says isn't there, in this case, biblical contradictions, but it can be anything. How does one decide if he is seeing something that is not there, or whether others are not seeing something because it is not there. Or the reverse.

Imagine a boy with daltonism, or red-green color blindness. People tell him that his socks don’t match even though they look the same to him, and he accepts the fact that he can’t sense some colors that others can.

But as time passes, the boy learns that Santa Claus was a hoax, as was the snipe hunting trip, and 52-card pick-up, and he begins to wonder if the red-green thing is also some kind of hoax – an elaborate prank. How can he decide whether people are claiming to see something not really there, or if he can’t sense something that is?

Easy. He gets what he has been told are 25 red socks and 25 green socks, which he numbers so that he can tell which is which, and then shows them separately to several people who have not spoken together, people who claim to see red and green as different colors.

He asks them what color is sock number 1, 2, 3, etc., and records their answers. It’s the uniformity of their responses that gives him his answer. Had this been a hoax, he would expect the answers to be varied.

What you could do is ask several skeptics if certain pairs of scriptures seem to be in contradiction, some coming from sites that call them contradictions, and some paired together for this purpose that do not, and compare their answers. If they are more or less in accord, it tells you the opposite that them being scattered in their responses would tell you.

It is in this same manner that we evaluate the claims of people claiming to experience God. Like many others, I don't. How can I decide if I'm not seeing a god that others can perceive, or the opposite? Same test. I can ask them what they see. Guess what. They are all over the place in their descriptions, which is why I conclude that they aren't seeing anything real, just their own minds and mistaking it for a god reaching out to them.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

For example, when the "church" was arguing that the earth is the center of the universe, it was not based the Bible said. I can see how interpretation can present a problem.

Scripture that is vague, ambiguous, or contradictory has no definite meaning. Consider poetry or song lyrics that are deliberately vague. They are verbal Rorschach tests, that say more about the reader, who has chosen from multiple possible interpretations, than the writer.

Consider the Christian who is harshly judgmental versus the one that is gentle and more tender. One is worshiping the Old Testament god because that is the one that connects with his psyche - the harsh, judgmental, vindictive, authoritarian. That is the god he sees.

The other identifies with god more like himself. They see different gods because they are bringing different personae to the interpretation process.

Thomas Paine said, "Belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man," but I think it's the other way around. A cruel man who believes in a god will be drawn to a cruel god, and a kind and gentle man to a kind and gentle god.

Are we in agreement?
1, Ask a question.
2. Make observations
3. Based on those observations, form a hypothesis as to what may be true.
4. Test the hypothesis by further observations and by experiments.
5. Watch to see if the predictions based on the hypothesis are true.
6. Draw a conclusion

That's what's frequently called the scientific method, but that is only the method for determining the results of an experiment or observation and a paper. This is only part of a larger processes into which this paper is embedded.

Let's call it the micro-scientific method, which results may be inaccurate and overturned by what we can call the larger "macro-scientific method." The next study may contradict the last one. What then?

Reliable science is vetted far beyond what is required by the "micro"- scientific method. Studies are subject to peer review before implementation to decide if they are well designed and worth funding, then again afterward to decide if they are worthy of publication, where the interested scientific community can then read them and comment. The studies are often repeated and confirmed, or in some cases, disconfirmed, and errors identified.

The results may be used to develop technology that may be used to predict and at times control nature, which, when it happens, confirms the validity of the new science they contain.

Multiple related studies are brought together and used to generate theories, from which previously unexpected predictions are made, which, if confirmed, further validate the conclusions.

The theories may suggest new avenues of previously unconsidered exploration, which in turn may also bear fruit such as additional useful technology, or suggest even more areas of investigation further vetting the validity the discoveries.

With time, additional confirming observations using unrelated techniques are added, as with evolutionary theory, where 21st century DNA sequencing techniques arrive at the same conclusions as earlier paleontological and embryological studies.

After years of such vetting, over which no contradictory observations have been made, only then is it fully vetted science. Information that gets as far as what is described above simply cannot be overturned, just expanded. Scientific theories that have reached this stage include the germ theory of disease, cell theory, the theory of biological evolution, the big bang theory, quantum mechanical theory, plate tectonic theory, and the theory of relativity.

That's the greater scientific method.

You have taken Gods understanding and had given it the easiest way to answer! there is one thing you must understand about God..GOD is THE HARDEST way you would (NOT ever Understand!). you see where I’ve bracketed? ..that means you do NOT want to learn more of what you don’t UNDERSTAND! For that THERE!..is where God is LOCATED. For this will also say that you are not FULLY developed!..which says you are not WHOLE..and for not worthy of being TRUE..which is why has left you arrogance of not wanting to learn, not admitting your wrongs, a lost person whom hold questions and twists answers, and most of all! a Lier and mouth of Denials.

Arrogance of not wanting to learn what? Your particular theology? I don't need it. I can't use it.

A lost person? What do you have to offer to the man who is content living with no god belief and without religion? Yes, I once was lost, but now I'm found. I cast off religion, which palled, and found secular humanism, which has been a good choice. Was blind, but now I see.

How is one that is dependent on religion to meet his psychological needs more fully developed than one who has met those needs without religion?

And what is more arrogant than assuming you know what needs others have, suggesting that you have answers regarding how they should live their lives, and becoming visibly frustrated when they tell you that they are uninterested. I'm pretty sure that I already know a better way to live than what you would offer me, but you'll notice

You’ve lied to God, so now God has Lied to YOU..simple as that!

If this god exists, it was the other way around for me. I did my part, but the god never delivered, so I left. I never lied to this god, but if it actually exists, it lied to me. I was unable to move mountains by faith. I was not filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[sealchan]

No. That apparently is not the case. Please show me.


Huh???


Why so vague?
I can't respond to something for which I have no clue what you are talking about.

I have studied this subject from both sides a bit, and I would like to comment more but my time has been limited since I saw this. Anyone else is free to explain on my behalf.

 

[Windwalker]

Yes, I agree the Genesis account is history, not science.

Why do you believe it's history, rather than a metaphor about being human?

 

[Windwalker]

Here is an example. A friend calls you in a panic and says that a here of buffalo just stampeded through his or her house. You rush over and the house is immaculate. Did your friend lie?

No he didn't lie. He was using a metaphor and his friend took it literally!

And I think that makes the whole point about the subject. What a mess we get into when we take figures of speech for facts. And that would be as true for the believer, as it is the unbeliever. Neither understand metaphors and their uses in stories like found in the Bible, mistaking them as claims to science and history when it's neither.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No he didn't lie. He was using a metaphor and his friend took it literally!

And I think that makes the whole point about the subject. What a mess we get into when we take figures of speech for facts. And that would be as true for the believer, as it is the unbeliever. Neither understand metaphors and their uses in stories like found in the Bible, mistaking them as claims to science and history when it's neither.

The various stories in Genesis may work if treated as allegory, metaphor, or morality tales. They do not work if treated as a literal event.

 

[Workman]

A couple of points. Name calling is against the rules here. People that cannot follow a conversation are not allowed to face palm. Please pay attention, YOU are the one that says that God is lying. You do not seem to realize that.

Did I hurt you..did I? Why are you offended? It’s only words..once before you said to me; (Im only a word salad)..So why have you taken action to my word salads..did you believe in it? Is that why your offended?..how can you believe something that doesn’t have proof in facts..when you have no proof or evidence that I TRULY did facepalmed you..

Ahhh..you see how it works now.

This is why you can’t test this opportunity! You have become blind!.with your faith.

You still have no idea do you!..
I wasn’t the one saying GOD Lied..YOU DID!..that was YOUR WORD/YOUR UNDERSTANDING/YOUR EXPRESSION YOU USED ITS TERM!! You failed not once not twice but now the third time again..pls go back to our previous posts and look PROPERLY of who used the term of expression of GOD being a ‘LIE(r)’!OPEN YOUR EYES!..control yourself!.you are unfit for a debate! From your understanding you don’t respect it well enough to keep up with it.
This is the third and last time I’m explaining this to your thick as head!..get of your high horse and fix your problem.

 

[Workman]

You should be honest and admit that all you have is drivel and empty threats. Are you afraid when a five year old threatens you with the monster under his bed?

HONESTY I am!..but to dis-honest myself for my Honesty..I can also do!..you AND MANY will never under this!..No I’m not afraid of anything at all! I am at peace..It came with my belief..something you don’t understand. As for your Monsters! they don’t exist with my belief For GOD mentions they are all a ‘Lie’! can you read between the lines? That means monsters only exist in a ‘Lie’ you will find them there! Which will lead me to ask you; are you living a lie? If I were you..I would check underneath bed tonight.lol

 

[Workman]

There was no mistake on my part. Like it or not certain claims means that we could observe certain effects

The mistake wasn’t claimed by you..it was claimed by me.
A mistake does not only mean its wrong..it means you’ve mistakenly taken its wrongs to be of your lie as your truth. This is why you are it’s proof of that! You have taken a lie to be it’s answer towards God..right? Because you don’t believe in God, no? therefore to be a lie means to be wrong(ed) by you.. and that is what you are living in..A Lie...and that is where your faith has lead you to believe..

You failed once again!..

 

[Workman]

Once again, no. You are the one that is claiming that God lied. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

I won’t bother explaining this part to you!..for you do not know how to measure of what can’t be measured..OF YOU.

 

[Workman]

Yes, I do know how codes work. You don't. There is no code in the Bible. Claims of "Bible codes" have been repeatedly refuted. But if you want to claim that there is one there the burden of proof is upon you.

Obviously!..it makes sense why you come to that conclusion with codes..every one has their own opinions..but there is no right answers, but only a matter of being wrong(ed)

I am not claiming anything ACCEPT the UNDERSTANDING. And how I got it..EASY!..I LISTENED TO THE INSTRUCTIONS AND I DID IT!.without LEAVING Myself WITH ANY confusion..I FACED them all by its respect of knowing..and it all fell into place.

That’s my answer!..GOD 1st before the ALL. But that is not good enough for you is it?? And that was your mistake!

 

[Workman]

Nope, I am not the blind one here. Now you are back to claiming that your God is an evil monster. This brings your morals into question. Why would you worship an immoral monster?

Like I mentioned in the beginning..if you can not solve its TRUEST purpose of the Bible..and therefore made its answer of God being a lie..because your dependency of your faith relies on evidence and proofs.

tell me exactly!..how much EFFORT have you LISTENED to GODS instructions?? But instead you feel like it needs to be experimented first..in order for you to claim your respect of it!

so now you tell me: who here do you really think is LYING?

I have come to you in a different approach saying to you your wrong in your answer and for that!..you will be punished!!!
When I say PUNISHED!!! I am NOT saying my GOD is PUNISHING YOU!..Nooooo!..this was why you were meant to learn..but instead you are BLIND!..

It means there is another God who is punishing you!..like I always have to remind people..there are 2 Gods involved here!..God of goodness and the other is Evil! You will be punished by the Evil god..NOT MY GOD!..why??because you don’t believe in My God..therefore leaving you out cold in the darkness of evilness working on your agitation(s)..So the MONSTER that you are referring to is your blind faith God...EVIL! Not mine!..

 

[Subduction Zone]

Did I hurt you..did I? Why are you offended? It’s only words..once before you said to me; (Im only a word salad)..So why have you taken action to my word salads..did you believe in it? Is that why your offended?..how can you believe something that doesn’t have proof in facts..when you have no proof or evidence that I TRULY did facepalmed you..

It is against the rules here. It leads to endless name calling if not outlawed . And you really have no case for a facepalm. Can you debate properly. Probably not.

Ahhh..you see how it works now.

This is why you can’t test this opportunity! You have become blind!.with your faith.

You still have no idea do you!..
I wasn’t the one saying GOD Lied..YOU DID!..that was YOUR WORD/YOUR UNDERSTANDING/YOUR EXPRESSION YOU USED ITS TERM!! You failed not once not twice but now the third time again..pls go back to our previous posts and look PROPERLY of who used the term of expression of GOD being a ‘LIE(r)’!OPEN YOUR EYES!..control yourself!.you are unfit for a debate! From your understanding you don’t respect it well enough to keep up with it.
This is the third and last time I’m explaining this to your thick as head!..get of your high horse and fix your problem.

Please pay attention, faith is your sin and not mine. Second you are the one claiming that God lied, though you do not realize that. I was the one that pointed out that you are doing that. You should be trying to learn how your beliefs cause such a claim.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The mistake wasn’t claimed by you..it was claimed by me.
A mistake does not only mean its wrong..it means you’ve mistakenly taken its wrongs to be of your lie as your truth. This is why you are it’s proof of that! You have taken a lie to be it’s answer towards God..right? Because you don’t believe in God, no? therefore to be a lie means to be wrong(ed) by you.. and that is what you are living in..A Lie...and that is where your faith has lead you to believe..

You failed once again!..

No, no failure by me. The Bible is full of errors, bad science, poor morals, etc.. I do not accept lies. You cannot name one. You appear to be making the gross error of thinking that the Bible is perfect, a magic book. We know that is not the case.

 

[Workman]

It is against the rules here. It leads to endless name calling if not outlawed . And you really have no case for a facepalm. Can you debate properly. Probably not.



Please pay attention, faith is your sin and not mine. Second you are the one claiming that God lied, though you do not realize that. I was the one that pointed out that you are doing that. You should be trying to learn how your beliefs cause such a claim.

If it’s against the rule why am I still here?? I don’t follow your rules..if you want report me..since you are the one who believes in my words to react

 

[Subduction Zone]

Obviously!..it makes sense why you come to that conclusion with codes..every one has their own opinions..but there is no right answers, but only a matter of being wrong(ed)

I am not claiming anything ACCEPT the UNDERSTANDING. And how I got it..EASY!..I LISTENED TO THE INSTRUCTIONS AND I DID IT!.without LEAVING Myself WITH ANY confusion..I FACED them all by its respect of knowing..and it all fell into place.

That’s my answer!..GOD 1st before the ALL. But that is not good enough for you is it?? And that was your mistake!

All you have is a bad case of confirmation bias along with a huge serving of cognitive dissonance. Would you like to learn how we know that one cannot read the Bible literally?

 

[Subduction Zone]

If it’s against the rule why am I still here?? I don’t follow your rules..if you want report me..since you are the one who believes in my words to react

I did not report you. The first warnings are friendly ones, but I do not wish to even inflict that in you unnecessarily.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Like I mentioned in the beginning..if you can not solve its TRUEST purpose of the Bible..and therefore made its answer of God being a lie..because your dependency of your faith relies on evidence and proofs.

tell me exactly!..how much EFFORT have you LISTENED to GODS instructions?? But instead you feel like it needs to be experimented first..in order for you to claim your respect of it!

so now you tell me: who here do you really think is LYING?

I have come to you in a different approach saying to you your wrong in your answer and for that!..you will be punished!!!
When I say PUNISHED!!! I am NOT saying my GOD is PUNISHING YOU!..Nooooo!..this was why you were meant to learn..but instead you are BLIND!..

It means there is another God who is punishing you!..like I always have to remind people..there are 2 Gods involved here!..God of goodness and the other is Evil! You will be punished by the Evil god..NOT MY GOD!..why??because you don’t believe in My God..therefore leaving you out cold in the darkness of evilness working on your agitation(s)..So the MONSTER that you are referring to is your blind faith God...EVIL! Not mine!..

Once again, faith is your sin. Not mine. Your version of God is almost certainly mythical. Let's drop the empty threats. Do you think that you can learn why you are calling God a liar if you read the Bible literally?