George Bush's Spirituality

[Rex]

I figured since we had Kerry we could do a Bush one also.

 

[Jaymes]

Methinks he falls under the 'born again Christian' of the most annoying variety: those that insist on pushing their faith on others.

 

[Green Gaia]

He's Baptist isn't he? Or is it Methodist... I keep forgetting... Oh Mr_Spinkles....

 

[Mr Spinkles]

LOL, I do not know what denomination of Christian he is, nor do I care. I base my opinions of political leaders on the policies they enact, not on their personal beliefs.

Jensa-- why do you think George W. Bush pushes his faith on others? I have listened to many of his speeches and never did I feel like he was pushing his religious beliefs on me.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Hhhmmmm...I haven't heard him publicly include his beliefs either (except for perfectly acceptable subtle details). Then again, he has bashed Atheists and homosexuals...and considering that his opinions of both are largely influenced by the bible....hhmmmm.

 

[Jaymes]

What Ceridwen said. Really, I just have a grudge against him because of the whole gay marriage thing. I'm very... twitchy about such things. I don't like someone who is supposed to be the leader of our nation advocating prejudice against homosexuals.

 

[linwood]

Jensa-- why do you think George W. Bush pushes his faith on others? I have listened to many of his speeches and never did I feel like he was pushing his religious beliefs on me.

I haven`t heard too much of it in his speeches either but it is obvious in his policy.

Myth based initiatives.
Opposition to gay rights.

There may be more but these two spring to mind as being entirely based in Christian dogma.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

What are myth based initiatives? Oh, you must mean this:

The White House Office and the Centers for the Faith-Based and Community Initiative -- located in seven Federal agencies -- are working to support the essential work of these important organizations. Their goal is to make sure that grassroots leaders can compete on an equal footing for federal dollars, receive greater private support, and face fewer bureaucratic barriers.

The Office focuses its efforts on the following populations:

At-risk youth
Ex-offenders
Homeless
Hungry
Substance abusers
Those with HIV/AIDS
Welfare-to-work families

from http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/fbci/

I don't see a problem with people of any faith or non-faith helping the hungry, substance abusers, or those with AIDS.

Opposition to gay rights is a political view that stems from a conservative ideology. It has more to do with culture than ancient religious scripture...after all, the Bible says lots of stuff that Christians do not advocate to be incorporated into secular law. On this issue, I think the Bible is just one attempt to support a pre-existing culturally/politically based opinion.

 

[Ardhanariswar]

cough. he has no spirituality. he says he does, just to follow along with other reps. in fact hes a spinless coward with no set of ethics and morals. he just follows what others do. some leader.

 

[linwood]

What are myth based initiatives? Oh, you must mean this: from http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/fbci/

I don't see a problem with people of any faith or non-faith helping the hungry, substance abusers, or those with AIDS.

Nor do I but there is no regulation in place for these initiatives and many if not most make their particular theology a prerequisite for getting any help from them
One example is the school voucher system in Florida.
the students in public schools that do not make the grade are permitted to use federally sponsered vouchers to go to any private school of the parents choice.
These schools frequently teach religious ideology such as creationism.
This is government money going to religion.
I have witnessed this first hand
The good news is that these vouchers have been struck down by two federal courts as unconstitutional and if Bush chooses to take it all the way to the Supreme court it will be struck down as well with the added bonus of strengthening the wall that seperates church and state.
I don`t think he`ll take it there.

Another example is that most of these religious organizations make it a prerequisite for their employees to share their beliefs.
This is government funded religious discrimination.

The substance abuse program most supported by this is AA.
AA is a religious based program forces you to proclaim yourself to God.

There are more and I`ll take a closer look for you if you like.

Opposition to gay rights is a political view that stems from a conservative ideology. It has more to do with culture than ancient religious scripture...after all,

I would argue that particular conservative ideology is rooted in biblical verse.
If you disagree can you show me any other origin other than biblical verse?

 

[Green Gaia]

Bush religion leanings: Evangelical or mainstream?
BY ALAN COOPERMAN THE WASHINGTON POST

Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2004

There is a growing historical record of President Bush’s religious statements and practices, including several new books, dozens of presidential speeches and some recent campaign interviews. Yet much about his faith remains opaque or open to interpretation, beginning with two anecdotes of personal spiritual experiences.

The first account is Bush’s own. In his 1999 campaign autobiography, A Charge to Keep, which helped introduce him to a national audience, he fondly recalled serving as a teenage altar boy at his parents’ Episcopal church in Houston. But as a young oilman in Midland, Texas, he joined a Presbyterian congregation. When he and Laura Bush married in 1977, he switched to her denomination, the United Methodist Church.

Though he was always somewhat religious, Bush said, a turning point came in a private talk with the Rev. Billy Graham along the coast of Maine in 1985. Graham’s words planted the "mustard seed in my soul" that eventually led to a decision to "recommit my heart to Jesus Christ," he wrote.

Besides being a Bush family friend, Graham is a widely admired Baptist evangelist who has counseled many presidents, and his frequently cited role in Bush’s journey of faith adds to its ecumenical air.

But from the point of view of some evangelical Christians, this story has a basic flaw: It lacks the drama of a single moment when Bush accepted Jesus as his savior, a true born-again experience.

Article continued at link above.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Huh, that's wierd...I wrote a reply post to you linwood but now it's gone...somehow...ah well.

Basically, in my reply, I said that as long as the government gives money to charitable Satanist organizations as well as charitable Christian organizations, I don't see a big problem. And as long as parents get vouchers to go to Satanist private schools as well as Christian private schools, they have the right to get their kids a good education when the public system can't measure up...even though I dislike creationism, if they want to teach their kids that, that's the parents' prerogative.

Random story....I remember at my Catholic school all the projectors that were paid for by government money were labeled as such and could not be used to teach anything they couldn't teach in public schools.

*edit* oh yeah-- why conservative ideology is not rooted in Biblical verse--

People are resistant to change, and have prejudices against others and want to remain in power. This is true of people of all religions. So for example, even if people in the South had not been Christian, I would argue that they still would have enslaved blacks, and they still would have oppressed them and wanted them to remain slaves. Why? Because if blacks got rights, the Southern whites would lose some of their power. Notice that historically, both anti slave Northerners and pro slavery Southerners used the Bible to back their positions. The key difference in ideology here is Northerner and Southerner--those fighting to liberate/enhance the powers of others, and those fighting to maintain their social/political power--not Christian or non-Christian.

Such is the case also with homosexual marriage/gay rights. Anti gay-marriage opinions come from culture and prejudice, not the Old Testament (though some people use the Old Testament to support this view). Conservatives generally do not use Biblical quotations in their arguments in the secular sphere, and for good reason. These same conservatives do not want shellfish to be legally banned, or to make all divorces illegal, or for the government to take away everyone's property because Jesus said to get rid of all our belongings and follow him, or to dismantle the military because Jesus was nonviolent....hardly.

 

[linwood]

Basically, in my reply, I said that as long as the government gives money to charitable Satanist organizations as well as charitable Christian organizations, I don't see a big problem. And as long as parents get vouchers to go to Satanist private schools as well as Christian private schools, they have the right to get their kids a good education when the public system can't measure up...even though I dislike creationism, if they want to teach their kids that, that's the parents' prerogative.

I`ll agree with that.
I don`t think government funding should go to any theological schooling.
Apparently the federal courts agree with me, now if only they`ll actually enforce their rulings.
It also troubles me that those who who promote this voucher system are the same people who complain about the inadequacy of public schooling when all the vouchers do is take money from the schools that need it most.

Random story....I remember at my Catholic school all the projectors that were paid for by government money were labeled as such and could not be used to teach anything they couldn't teach in public schools.

You went to an honorable school many aren`t.
I know a voucher parent who sent his kid to a Christian grade school here who walked into a class early to pick his child up for a doctors visit and stumbled into a creation lecture.
I asked what the hell he thought they were going to teach his kid?

*edit* oh yeah-- why conservative ideology is not rooted in Biblical verse--

Such is the case also with homosexual marriage/gay rights. Anti gay-marriage opinions come from culture and prejudice, not the Old Testament (though some people use the Old Testament to support this view).

I would argue that the culture and prejudice itself is rooted in a intolerant patriarchal religion.
I could prove this by showing the few examples of tolerant matriarchal religions producing cultures that don`t generally share the same predjudice

Conservatives generally do not use Biblical quotations in their arguments in the secular sphere, and for good reason. These same conservatives do not want shellfish to be legally banned, or to make all divorces illegal, or for the government to take away everyone's property because Jesus said to get rid of all our belongings and follow him, or to dismantle the military because Jesus was nonviolent....hardly.

They don`t use them now because it isn`t acceptable in our politically correct society 9culture change)but they did use them in the past and there is more reference to them as of late in our newfound environment of religious fundamentalism.
Christian are also notorious for picking and choosing which laws of Leviticus to obey and not obey.

 

[Mister Emu]

Christian are also notorious for picking and choosing which laws of Leviticus to obey and not obey.

What do you mean, we don't pick and choose, all of the laws of Leviticus were abolished and replaced with: Love your neighbor as yourself and as God loves you.

 

[linwood]

What do you mean, we don't pick and choose, all of the laws of Leviticus were abolished and replaced with: Love your neighbor as yourself and as God loves you.

Thats just your interpretation of the NT.
Many Christians make a claim for still following the "Moral" laws but discard the "Ceremonial" laws.

This is picking and choosing and is the crux of the gay marriage debate.

If we`re going to get into this we should move it to the Leviticus thread...

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2898

 

[Mister Emu]

Thats just your interpretation of the NT.
Many Christians make a claim for still following the "Moral" laws but discard the "Ceremonial" laws.

Ahh see that is just your interpretation of the OT, the morals were infact not laws but morals.

You are correct though if you wish to deabte this then we need to go over to the Leviticus thread, and I will cease talking about it.

Basically, in my reply, I said that as long as the government gives money to charitable Satanist organizations as well as charitable Christian organizations, I don't see a big problem

I agree the charitable organizations given money should not be based on religion.

And as long as parents get vouchers to go to Satanist private schools as well as Christian private schools, they have the right to get their kids a good education when the public system can't measure up...even though I dislike creationism, if they want to teach their kids that, that's the parents' prerogative

I did not know the vouchers were only given to certain schools, I thought they were given for any private school in the area.

 

[linwood]

I did not know the vouchers were only given to certain schools, I thought they were given for any private school in the area.

This is true but is really not the point for a couple reasons.
The first is it doesn`t matter if the parent chooses to give the voucher to a religious or secular private school, tax money would still be going to a religious purpose if the parent chose the later.

There is only one private secular school within 20 miles of me and it will not accept the vouchers on ethical principles.
They agree it does nothing but harm the public schools.

 

[Mister Emu]

tax money would still be going to a religious purpose if the parent chose the later.

It would be going to an educational purpose whichever private school the parent chooses to attend. If public schools are over crowded, where there are around 40 students per class(3-4 of my classes were like this a year ago) and the teachers are sub-par or not even qualified to teach(my 8th grade math teacher had a degree in social science not math) the subject, than actions need to be taken.

That is a deplorable state, and until it can be changed, as the public school system is not adequate, I think the option for the kids to goto an academically acclaimed school is wonderful.

 

[linwood]

We are in almost complete agreement on the situation it seems it`s just in the methods we don`t see eye to eye.

I agree the public school system is well..horrendous.
I have two older boys in it and a 4 year old girl soon to be in it I guess.
I`ve searched my area desperately for alternatives in the private sector that fit my beliefs and income to no avail.

It would be going to an educational purpose whichever private school the parent chooses to attend.

That is an opinion based on your personal position.
From my position the teaching of any theological dogma is not education but the spreading of ignorance.
I don`t wish to contribute to this as I would unwillingly be doing through my share of taxes.

Tell me truthfully Emu, how would you feel about tax monies going to an Islamic school that made a habit of espousing Mohhameds hadiths as if they were truth on a daily basis?

If public schools are over crowded, where there are around 40 students per class(3-4 of my classes were like this a year ago) and the teachers are sub-par or not even qualified to teach(my 8th grade math teacher had a degree in social science not math) the subject, than actions need to be taken.

How can actions be taken to improve the school system if we take it`s funding away and give it to private institutions where we have no control over what is ultimately taught?

My state has constitutionally mandated class sizes be brought down within a few years.
They`ve already begun this with fairly rapid success although it is not easy.
My county has voted for a property tax referendum again and again every 4 years to increase their property taxes in order to better our school system and the quality of teachers.
All of this has had to be done with no help from the federal government because they simply don`t have the money yet they have the money to pay some serious tuitions to private schools with vouchers.

I don`t get it.

Edit: I`d like to point out that this is all moot since as I`ve said earlier these vouchers have already been knocked down by two federal courts and unless the GOP has the testes to roll the dice on it`s whole faith based intitiative program this early in the game and take it to the supreme court it is a done deal.

 

[Mister Emu]

That is an opinion based on your personal position.
From my position the teaching of any theological dogma is not education but the spreading of ignorance.
I don`t wish to contribute to this as I would unwillingly be doing through my share of taxes.

Tell me truthfully Emu, how would you feel about tax monies going to an Islamic school that made a habit of espousing Mohhameds hadiths as if they were truth on a daily basis?

The thing is, tax money is already going to a set of beliefs, in public school biology class, evolutionary origin, big bang, and macro-evolution are taught as if fact while none have been proven. This is a theological stance, the only thing is you don't see it because it is what you believe(I assume correct me if I am wrong).

So either your stance is hypocritical, or you must agree that macro-evolution, big bang, and evolutionary origins need to be taken out of public schools.

and I would prefer that all supposition be taken out of school, and only facts taught, but to me tax money for schools that teach islam is the same as we have now with schools teaching above theories, both are unproven beliefs that I do not agree with.

My state has constitutionally mandated class sizes be brought down within a few years.
They`ve already begun this with fairly rapid success although it is not easy.

My county schools are mandated 34 or less, yet we still have 40 plus classes.

Edit: I`d like to point out that this is all moot since as I`ve said earlier these vouchers have already been knocked down by two federal courts and unless the GOP has the testes to roll the dice on it`s whole faith based intitiative program this early in the game and take it to the supreme court it is a done deal.

I know it is moot, yet I will still debate it