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"Get Out of Her"

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I think you'd be more accurate to say, without the evidence you are looking for - namely, a supernatural being performing supernatural events right before your eyes, and you carry a mark that's visible to everyone, so you wouldn't be able to make the excuse... "I had a dream."
God won't do that though, so you'll never see any evidence to your satisfaction... maybe. ;)
Sometimes I read history books, and national geographic has a nice book about the artifacts and writing of history in Egypt and israel.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Now with those examples in mind read the prophecy in Revelation 18:4. It is directed to God's people who are in "her." They are told to get out of her, because if they don't they will share with her in her sins and receive the plagues she receives:
The relevant passage reads:
Revelation 18:
1. After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority; and the earth was made bright with his splendor. 2 And he called out with a mighty voice, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! It has become a dwelling place of demons, a haunt of every foul spirit, a haunt of every foul and hateful bird;
3 for all nations have drunk the wine of her impure passion, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich with the wealth of her wantonness." 4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; 5 for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
6 Render to her as she herself has rendered, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double draught for her in the cup she mixed.
7 As she glorified herself and played the wanton, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning. Since in her heart she says, 'A queen I sit, I am no widow, mourning I shall never see,'​

It's a mix of customary polemic, propaganda, familiar rhetorical tropes and end-times doom-saying, addressed to people living about 1900 years ago.

It bears no relationship to 2020 (except that doomsaying has been popular in every age so why not 2020?) and it makes no credible or specific threats or claims. It doesn't say Vesuvius is going to blow up in the next month or so because it had already blown up a decade or two earlier (79 CE), it doesn't say anyone's house in ancient Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, is on fire, it doesn't say there's any specific action a reader should have specifically taken 1900 years ago to avoid the unspecified doom except to panic.

So I think you should stop worrying about that, cheer up and have a nice day.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The relevant passage reads:
Revelation 18:
1. After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority; and the earth was made bright with his splendor. 2 And he called out with a mighty voice, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! It has become a dwelling place of demons, a haunt of every foul spirit, a haunt of every foul and hateful bird;
3 for all nations have drunk the wine of her impure passion, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich with the wealth of her wantonness." 4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; 5 for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
6 Render to her as she herself has rendered, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double draught for her in the cup she mixed.
7 As she glorified herself and played the wanton, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning. Since in her heart she says, 'A queen I sit, I am no widow, mourning I shall never see,'​

It's a mix of customary polemic, propaganda, familiar rhetorical tropes and end-times doom-saying, addressed to people living about 1900 years ago.

It bears no relationship to 2020 (except that doomsaying has been popular in every age so why not 2020?) and it makes no credible or specific threats or claims. It doesn't say Vesuvius is going to blow up in the next month or so because it had already blown up a decade or two earlier (79 CE), it doesn't say anyone's house in ancient Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, is on fire, it doesn't say there's any specific action a reader should have specifically taken 1900 years ago to avoid the unspecified doom except to panic.

So I think you should stop worrying about that, cheer up and have a nice day.
I feel sorry for those caught in the problems of fires burning on the west coast, don't you? Some are blaming it on global warming, while others are saying, no...global warming is not true.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Religion certainly can be a con. But Pilate couldn't figure out what is truth when he asked Jesus, so evidently it was up in the air for him.
And Obi Wan said that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I feel sorry for those caught in the problems of fires burning on the west coast, don't you? Some are blaming it on global warming, while others are saying, no...global warming is not true.
I feel sorry indeed, especially for the families who've lost close relations and friends, but also for those whose homes have burnt and whose communities have taken such a hit; and I totally endorse Governor Newsom's remarks about global warming.

But the self-seeking folly of which entrenched interests are capable, as with the campaigns opposing the idea of global warming, are merely the latest example of the negative side of humanity, and nothing Patmos Jack has to say will make any more difference in future than in the past.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Religion certainly can be a con. But Pilate couldn't figure out what is truth when he asked Jesus, so evidently it was up in the air for him.
I didn't say that we always know the truth - but there is always a truth out there. In the Pilate story, Pilate had conflicting evidence and couldn't decide which was true.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Thank you all for your responses. I apologize I have not taken the time to return sooner. And since I have had so many replies, I find myself hard pressed to reply to everyone individually in this thread on this topic.

So to reply to everyone who peruses the thread and see this. Firstly, I respect your viewpoints, and understand how many of you come to the conclusions you do.

Now we know that Revelation was written by John in exile on the island of Patmos for preaching about the Christ, near the end of the first century, long after Jesus had died and shortly before John dies. And he said he was given this revelation or apocalypse, for things that must shortly take place, referring to the future, and indeed Revelation is not about Rome as some of you propound, or a polemic about ancient history.

The very name of the book explains what it is about. In Greek the word apocalypse means an unveiling, or revealing, that is why it is translated Revelation in English. So it is not just a polemic about the past. Jesus himself said to John in the revelation that it was for the future. Actually it sums up many things in the Bible.

I wanted to be brief in my response, but realize that I should be a little more through than I wanted to be, which may be off-putting, and some may not find the time or desire to read my entire reply. I apologize about that.

Going back to the theme of the OP about heeding a warning of imminent danger, seeing the "signs of the times," if you will. Just as there were warning signs that Mt Saint Helens was about to errupt. And then heeding the warning message to "get out of her," get off the mountain!

When Revelation was written Rome was the ruling power. In the Revelation John is given a vision of a fearsome wild beast with 7 heads that represent world powers. These world powers are not all of the world powers that have ruled throughout history, but ones that have had direct influence on God's people. These world powers have always been in opposition to God and his servants.

In the Bible times it was mainly the Jews, but after Jesus came to the earth it has been true Christianity. Now John said that 5 world powers had came and went when he was alive. And the fifth was "is" that is the Roman Empire, the 6th world empire of that prophecy. And one is to be in the future. So we know right here that he is not referring to the past but the future, that is our times.

Jehovah's Witnesses have discerned that the seventh head of the wild beast, is the Anglo-American world empire. It is also represent as a two-horned wild beast that has the horns of a lamb but is fierce. It's appearance is sheeplike, that is peaceful, but it in reality is fearsome and warlike. It is the final world empire in Revelation before the end. Thus the United States will remain the dominant world power up to Armageddon. Here is the prophecy:

"The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top.  And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while."-Revelation 17:19-20.

In order the 7 world rulers here are: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece...the world power that is - "one is" - at the time John was alive is Rome, and the final one is Britain and the United States.

During the time of the end just before Armageddon an imagine of the wild beast with the seven heads turns upon the prostitute called "Babylon the great" in Revelation 17, 18.

IMG_E0076.JPG


All the kings of the earth give their power to the wild beast that is a representation of all governmental rule at that time. They turn upon the prostitute, expose her destroy her and burn her with fire. The voice from heaven is warning to GET OUT OF HER if you are in her.

If you study the vision in Revelation 17 and 18 you see that she is not a political power. The kings of the earth destroy her, and she commits sexual immorality with all the kings of the earth. And the kings of the earth stand at a distance in shock and horror after she is destroyed. So she is not a political power. She is not a commercial entity. The commercial element of mankind weeps over her demise because they lose a lot of money at her destruction.

We are told she holds an empire over the entire earth, over the waters, that is the peoples:

Come, I will show you the judgment on the great prostitute who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality, and earth’s inhabitants were made drunk with the wine of her sexual immorality.”-Revelation 17:1-2.

That this is symbolic as is much of Revelation and what it means is reveled further on:

The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues."-Revelation 17:15.


Babylon is the birthplace of false religion. It is where Nimrod first made a name rebelling against God. It was called Babel when God confused the nations of the earth and scattered them. From Babylon these people all took with them core false religions teachings, such as Immortality of the soul, Hellfire, the Trinity, mother-son worship. As the people scattered time and tradition changed these teachings somewhat but all false religion keep the basic core tenants of the false religious teachings founded in Babylon of old.

So Babylon the great, the one who commits sexual immorality with the kings of the earth is a spiritual entity. Just as Israel committed adultery by mixing with and putting trust in the nations around them, religion, especially those that claim to represent the God of the Bible but who get involved with politics and warfare have prostituted themselves to the kings of the earth.

Thus the prostitute, Babylon the great, is the world-wide empire of false religion. God says that found in her is the blood of everyone shed, especially of the holy ones.

Now not one religion on earth will tell you what the prostitute represents, because it represents them. But Jehovah's people will tell you, and thus it is from God that this message goes out to everyone in her: Get out of her.

Several replies said they would need to see signs like the ones that appeared before the eruption of Mount St Helens, the smoke, the tremors. Jesus gave us a composite sign that we are in the last days in Matthew 24:

Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”-Matthew 24:3.

Some here say that it has always been the way it is. But that is not true. If you read this composite sign, never in history have all of them been fulfilled at the same time, as it is today. In fact the final sign is this:

"And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."-Matthew 24:14.

There is a world-wide preaching work that has never been done before in human history that is being done now along with the fulfillment of all the other signs found there in Matthew 24. We have the signs we need to see the end is imminent.

This is where discernment and real study is important. It means your life.

There are those who have studied the Bible and have convinced themselves that it is true. That it is reliable. And they see proof of many prophecies in it being fulfilled right now. And like the person in the OP who sees the apartment on fire and people in it that are unaware they see the impending danger and are warning the occupants to "get out of her."

IMG_E0069.JPG


Jesus said during that time there will be a "great tribulation" that has never occurred up to that time and will never occur again and everyone calling on the name of Jehovah will get away safe!

"And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe."-Joel 2:30-32.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Thank you all for your responses. I apologize I have not taken the time to return sooner. And since I have had so many replies, I find myself hard pressed to reply to everyone individually in this thread on this topic.

So to reply to everyone who peruses the thread and see this. Firstly, I respect your viewpoints, and understand how many of you come to the conclusions you do.

Now we know that Revelation was written by John in exile on the island of Patmos for preaching about the Christ, near the end of the first century, long after Jesus had died and shortly before John dies. And he said he was given this revelation or apocalypse, for things that must shortly take place, referring to the future, and indeed Revelation is not about Rome as some of you propound, or a polemic about ancient history.

The very name of the book explains what it is about. In Greek the word apocalypse means an unveiling, or revealing, that is why it is translated Revelation in English. So it is not just a polemic about the past. Jesus himself said to John in the revelation that it was for the future. Actually it sums up many things in the Bible.

I wanted to be brief in my response, but realize that I should be a little more through than I wanted to be, which may be off-putting, and some may not find the time or desire to read my entire reply. I apologize about that.

Going back to the theme of the OP about heeding a warning of imminent danger, seeing the "signs of the times," if you will. Just as there were warning signs that Mt Saint Helens was about to errupt. And then heeding the warning message to "get out of her," get off the mountain!

When Revelation was written Rome was the ruling power. In the Revelation John is given a vision of a fearsome wild beast with 7 heads that represent world powers. These world powers are not all of the world powers that have ruled throughout history, but ones that have had direct influence on God's people. These world powers have always been in opposition to God and his servants.

In the Bible times it was mainly the Jews, but after Jesus came to the earth it has been true Christianity. Now John said that 5 world powers had came and went when he was alive. And the fifth was "is" that is the Roman Empire, the 6th world empire of that prophecy. And one is to be in the future. So we know right here that he is not referring to the past but the future, that is our times.

Jehovah's Witnesses have discerned that the seventh head of the wild beast, is the Anglo-American world empire. It is also represent as a two-horned wild beast that has the horns of a lamb but is fierce. It's appearance is sheeplike, that is peaceful, but it in reality is fearsome and warlike. It is the final world empire in Revelation before the end. Thus the United States will remain the dominant world power up to Armageddon. Here is the prophecy:

"The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top.  And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while."-Revelation 17:19-20.

In order the 7 world rulers here are: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece...the world power that is - "one is" - at the time John was alive is Rome, and the final one is Britain and the United States.

During the time of the end just before Armageddon an imagine of the wild beast with the seven heads turns upon the prostitute called "Babylon the great" in Revelation 17, 18.

View attachment 42828

All the kings of the earth give their power to the wild beast that is a representation of all governmental rule at that time. They turn upon the prostitute, expose her destroy her and burn her with fire. The voice from heaven is warning to GET OUT OF HER if you are in her.

If you study the vision in Revelation 17 and 18 you see that she is not a political power. The kings of the earth destroy her, and she commits sexual immorality with all the kings of the earth. And the kings of the earth stand at a distance in shock and horror after she is destroyed. So she is not a political power. She is not a commercial entity. The commercial element of mankind weeps over her demise because they lose a lot of money at her destruction.

We are told she holds an empire over the entire earth, over the waters, that is the peoples:

Come, I will show you the judgment on the great prostitute who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality, and earth’s inhabitants were made drunk with the wine of her sexual immorality.”-Revelation 17:1-2.

That this is symbolic as is much of Revelation and what it means is reveled further on:

The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues."-Revelation 17:15.


Babylon is the birthplace of false religion. It is where Nimrod first made a name rebelling against God. It was called Babel when God confused the nations of the earth and scattered them. From Babylon these people all took with them core false religions teachings, such as Immortality of the soul, Hellfire, the Trinity, mother-son worship. As the people scattered time and tradition changed these teachings somewhat but all false religion keep the basic core tenants of the false religious teachings founded in Babylon of old.

So Babylon the great, the one who commits sexual immorality with the kings of the earth is a spiritual entity. Just as Israel committed adultery by mixing with and putting trust in the nations around them, religion, especially those that claim to represent the God of the Bible but who get involved with politics and warfare have prostituted themselves to the kings of the earth.

Thus the prostitute, Babylon the great, is the world-wide empire of false religion. God says that found in her is the blood of everyone shed, especially of the holy ones.

Now not one religion on earth will tell you what the prostitute represents, because it represents them. But Jehovah's people will tell you, and thus it is from God that this message goes out to everyone in her: Get out of her.

Several replies said they would need to see signs like the ones that appeared before the eruption of Mount St Helens, the smoke, the tremors. Jesus gave us a composite sign that we are in the last days in Matthew 24:

Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”-Matthew 24:3.

Some here say that it has always been the way it is. But that is not true. If you read this composite sign, never in history have all of them been fulfilled at the same time, as it is today. In fact the final sign is this:

"And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."-Matthew 24:14.

There is a world-wide preaching work that has never been done before in human history that is being done now along with the fulfillment of all the other signs found there in Matthew 24. We have the signs we need to see the end is imminent.

This is where discernment and real study is important. It means your life.

There are those who have studied the Bible and have convinced themselves that it is true. That it is reliable. And they see proof of many prophecies in it being fulfilled right now. And like the person in the OP who sees the apartment on fire and people in it that are unaware they see the impending danger and are warning the occupants to "get out of her."

View attachment 42827

Jesus said during that time there will be a "great tribulation" that has never occurred up to that time and will never occur again and everyone calling on the name of Jehovah will get away safe!

"And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe."-Joel 2:30-32.
You know, you could have saved everyone a lot of time and bother by announcing right off the bat that you're a Jehovah's Witness here to proselytize.

Your deceptive OP really shows a lack of respect for the people who bothered to reply in good faith.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
So to reply to everyone who peruses the thread and see this. Firstly, I respect your viewpoints, and understand how many of you come to the conclusions you do.
Pulling this out on its own: I have a real time believing that either of these statements are true. I see no respect or understanding (edit: of other viewpoints) in your posts in this thread.
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I feel sorry indeed, especially for the families who've lost close relations and friends, but also for those whose homes have burnt and whose communities have taken such a hit; and I totally endorse Governor Newsom's remarks about global warming.

But the self-seeking folly of which entrenched interests are capable, as with the campaigns opposing the idea of global warming, are merely the latest example of the negative side of humanity, and nothing Patmos Jack has to say will make any more difference in future than in the past.
That is why what is stated in the Bible about mankind not being about to successfully rule themselves makes a lot of sense to me. When I look around, even at the roads, and see that they can't even pave good roads, I realize something isn't right.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You know, you could have saved everyone a lot of time and bother by announcing right off the bat that you're a Jehovah's Witness here to proselytize.

Your deceptive OP really shows a lack of respect for the people who bothered to reply in good faith.
I disagree with you. Because by the way I didn't read many of your posts, but what is your take on the future of the earth? Think global warming is a problem?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I disagree with you.
I don't care.

In any case, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Anyone can read this thread for themselves.

Because by the way I didn't read many of your posts, but what is your take on the future of the earth? Think global warming is a problem?
It doesn't work that way. I'm not interested in sharing my opinions with you until you demonstrate that you're capable of carrying on a conversation in good faith.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I didn't say that we always know the truth - but there is always a truth out there. In the Pilate story, Pilate had conflicting evidence and couldn't decide which was true.
He found no fault in Jesus. But the crowd wanted him dead and it obviously influenced Pilate.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don't care.

In any case, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Anyone can read this thread for themselves.


It doesn't work that way. I'm not interested in sharing my opinions with you until you demonstrate that you're capable of carrying on a conversation in good faith.
I think I have. Anyway, bye bye for now and have a good night as the future awaits.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is why what is stated in the Bible about mankind not being about to successfully rule themselves makes a lot of sense to me. When I look around, even at the roads, and see that they can't even pave good roads, I realize something isn't right.
There's never been a day in history when everything was right. That something isn't, or some things aren't, right is part of the human condition.

This equally true for believers and for others.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There's never been a day in history when everything was right. That something isn't, or some things aren't, right is part of the human condition.

This equally true for believers and for others.
No doubt. Yet worse for some than for others. And frankly,such a small thing to pave and set roads correctly, but -- seems the government just either doesn't have enough money to do the job right, or people don't care. So take that to a higher degree of mankind's circumstances, and what shows up? All kinds of abuse. The human condition.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No doubt. Yet worse for some than for others. And frankly,such a small thing to pave and set roads correctly, but -- seems the government just either doesn't have enough money to do the job right, or people don't care. So take that to a higher degree of mankind's circumstances, and what shows up? All kinds of abuse. The human condition.
If you want to measure life by its lesser faults, I'll leave you to it.

If you want to try and do something about the bigger things, I'll see you at the tree planting, the rally, the charity fete, as soon as Covid allows. Meanwhile, just send money to the causes of your choice.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
If you want to measure life by its lesser faults, I'll leave you to it.

If you want to try and do something about the bigger things, I'll see you at the tree planting, the rally, the charity fete, as soon as Covid allows. Meanwhile, just send money to the causes of your choice.
Such a small thing yet people have lost their lives to human fault. All the money in the world will not (1) stop the destruction of lives and habitat on the west coast of the U.S. and (2) will not bring back those who have died. Oh, and lest I forget, the government should have enough money to help people, don't you think? Yet with all the charities people are still starving in various places of the world. And many homeless in the U.S.
 
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