Giants and Gods/Goddesses in Norse belief

[Native]

Answering the question might mean you will actually need to read some Norse mythology, let me know if you need me to direct you to credible sources (rather than Wikipedia). If your not prepared to support your position take your sweeping statements and your eclectic UPG elsewhere.

Why would I be that stupid to comment on Norse Mythology without having read of it already?

I don´t know why you´re having something againt wikipedia as the informations here are made of intellectual individuals which have read lots of books and encyclopedias, thus just repeating all existing informations and former mistakes made by authors which apparently don´t have neither astronomical nor cosmological knowledge since they, for instants, accepts the Orion constellation to migrate around geographically on the Earth.

Both Orion (mythology) - Wikipedia and ORION - Boeotian Giant of Greek Mythology contains much the same misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

Of course star constellations existed long long before any written texts and they have been given different names in different cultural periods. The Orion constellation figure can be taken as a female figure with a slim waist - and it also can be interpreted as a male figure with a hammer or axe and a "tightened belt of strength".

In the popular Norse Mythology BOTH possibilities are seemingly considered and put together in the myth of "Thors Wedding" dressed in woman clothing, thus kind of mocking the Thor figure.

Besides this: Several male and female sky deities in Norse Mythology are not described specifically as star constellations or figures resembling the contours of the Milky Way - which just shows that the mythical contents of the Sky deities and their celestial motions have been long forgotten and have to be re-discovered and re-interpreted.

So: Don´t blame me for not finding any specific constellation texts of this or that deity in Norse Mythology as most of it is forgotten even long before it was written down.

BTW: You´re STILL haven´t replied to my former critical point of views of the "Orion interpretations". But maybe it doesn´t bother you how ancient myths are understood and interpreted?

 

[Native]

Hildeburh,
In your first reply in this thread, you wrote:

The Jötunn, Æsir, Vanir, Dwarves and Landvættir in my opinion are best seen as different tribes, just like there were many human Germanic tribes. As with the human Germanic tribes they intermarriaged, traded, squabbled and disagreed. Many of the Æsir and Freyr of the Vanir are interrelated through either marriage and birth to the Jötunn.

This explains why you´re having huge troubles understanding the mythical basics as in several mythical encyclopedias. You apparently also seems to believe that ancient deities lived on the Earth as "different tribes" - which is nonsense.

 

[Hildeburh]

Hildeburh,
In your first reply in this thread, you wrote.This explains why you´re having huge troubles understanding the mythical basics as in several mythical encyclopedias.

Oh, we are going back to my first reply to this thread does that mean you have given up on providing us with any coherent answers to any of the questions asked in terms of how you reconcile your UPG with Norse mythology?

Mythical encyclopedias? LOL.... please do inform us as to where these mythical encyclopedias are, who wrote them and the relationship they have to Norse mythology.

You apparently also seems to believe that ancient deities lived on the Earth as "different tribes" - which is nonsense.

Go back and re-read my first post, did I say they lived on earth or that they could be viewed as separate tribes like the Germanic tribes? Is the notion of the Vanir, Æsir, Landsvattir etc as separate tribes a new concept for you? Sad....that reflects your ignorance of Norse scholarship......again!

There is a great deal of scholarship going back decades that considers the Æsir/Vanir as as separate tribes, would you like some references?

A good example from early Norse kennings that iillustrate this point is a byname of Thor as “Asa-Thor”, meaning “Thor of the Æsir” ie Thor of the tribe of the Æsir or Thor as belonging to the Æsir.

 

[Native]

Go back and re-read my first post, did I say they lived on earth or that they could be viewed as separate tribes like the Germanic tribes? Is the notion of the Vanir, Æsir, Landsvattir etc as separate tribes a new concept

The term "tribe" belongs to the human world and not to the celestial one where different constellations, objects and the Milky Way contours are symbolized as "deities" in the Norse Mythology.

It is non sense to describe these celestial realms as "tribes" but this what you get when relying on sources which have no mytho-astronomical and cosmological knowledge.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Agreed. There is no literary evidence that the Jötunn are in any way incompatible with the Æsir, in terms of marriage and reproduction Some of the Æsir are said to be able to shape shift and in the case of Thor apparently take on massive proportions to wade through the rivers, such as the Kormpt and Ormpt every day. In Thor’s conflicts with the Jötunn, such as Hrungnir who was called the mightiest of the Jötunn, Thor is not described as disadvantaged in terms of size.

I think it is probably old scholarship that presents the Æsir as a creative force and Jötunn as a destructive one. These forces are two sides of the same coin rather than a dicotomy; one potent example in Norse myth is the creation of the Miðgarðr from the killing of Ymir by Odin; creation from destruction.

I agree. There's no hard and fast difference between them other than their tribe.

 

[Bear Wild]

I agree. There's no hard and fast difference between them other than their tribe.

Is there any difference between the two in respect to human society vs outside human society. In other words do the Aesir represent more of the social order organization vs the Vanir more with the more chaotic apparent disorder of the natural world?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Is there any difference between the two in respect to human society vs outside human society. In other words do the Aesir represent more of the social order organization vs the Vanir more with the more chaotic apparent disorder of the natural world?

I don't think about them in such terms.

 

[Native]

Is there any difference between the two in respect to human society vs outside human society. In other words do the Aesir represent more of the social order organization vs the Vanir more with the more chaotic apparent disorder of the natural world?

Vanir lives on the Midgaard realm, the Earth as different tribes.
Aesir belongs to the celestial realm as images of different star constellations and other objects.
Joetuns represents the large Milky Way structure, hence they´re also called "Giants".

It´s only in our time, that Vanir creates dosorder and chaos - all the rest are cosmological order as described in the numerous cultural Stories of Creation.

 

[Native]

I don't think about them in such terms.

In what terms do you then think of them?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

In what terms do you then think of them?

Not like they're human beings?

 

[The Hammer]

In other words do the Aesir represent more of the social order organization vs the Vanir more with the more chaotic apparent disorder of the natural world?

I think this is more of an apt description between the Æsir/Vanir and Jötunn's in respect to Order v Chaos. Both the Æsir and Vanir were seperate tribes of Gods, with one supplanting the other mythologically.

 

[Bear Wild]

I think this is more of an apt description between the Æsir/Vanir and Jötunn's in respect to Order v Chaos. Both the Æsir and Vanir were seperate tribes of Gods, with one supplanting the other mythologically.

That makes sense but the gods and goddesses are descended from the Jotunn if I understand it correctly. I asked because in Celtic mythology there is a distinction between what seems to be an older group of gods and goddesses that are more privative and a newer group of a more "civilized" associated with human society. Thus Dagda and Lug overlap but with the one often depicted as a more privative compared to the other. Similarly Morrigan compared to Brigid gives this similar contrast. They are combined in the Irish tales but some see them as older and newer forms of the Irish Celtic gods and goddesses.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That makes sense but the gods and goddesses are descended from the Jotunn if I understand it correctly. I asked because in Celtic mythology there is a distinction between what seems to be an older group of gods and goddesses that are more privative and a newer group of a more "civilized" associated with human society. Thus Dagda and Lug overlap but with the one often depicted as a more privative compared to the other. Similarly Morrigan compared to Brigid gives this similar contrast. They are combined in the Irish tales but some see them as older and newer forms of the Irish Celtic gods and goddesses.

It's the same with the Olympian Gods vs. the Titans. It appears to be a common motif in Indo-European mythology, if your take on it is true.

 

[Bear Wild]

It's the same with the Olympian Gods vs. the Titans. It appears to be a common motif in Indo-European mythology, if your take on it is true.

That is what I find interesting. Does this represent new groups merging with old where the new gods become dominant or is this a symbolic narrative of how they see their own society change. In all of these groups there are also the others - dwarfs, fairies, nymphs, elves also closely related to the natural elements.

 

[The Hammer]

That makes sense but the gods and goddesses are descended from the Jotunn if I understand it correctly. I asked because in Celtic mythology there is a distinction between what seems to be an older group of gods and goddesses that are more privative and a newer group of a more "civilized" associated with human society. Thus Dagda and Lug overlap but with the one often depicted as a more privative compared to the other. Similarly Morrigan compared to Brigid gives this similar contrast. They are combined in the Irish tales but some see them as older and newer forms of the Irish Celtic gods and goddesses.

Yes, it appears that this is pretty similar to what happened amongst the Norse Deities. The supplanted deities of the Vanir, seemed to have a lot in connection with the bounty of the Earth and dominion over Men and Animals (Nerthus, and Freyr come to mind), but these are later supplanted by more distant Sky Gods of the Æsir. This is a common motif in Proto-Indo-European lore, as @Saint Frankenstein mentioned. I am currently about halfway through an old textbook on comparative PIE mythology, so I may have better or more info later on.

 

[Bear Wild]

Yes, it appears that this is pretty similar to what happened amongst the Norse Deities. The supplanted deities of the Vanir, seemed to have a lot in connection with the bounty of the Earth and dominion over Men and Animals (Nerthus, and Freyr come to mind), but these are later supplanted by more distant Sky Gods of the Æsir. This is a common motif in Proto-Indo-European lore, as @Saint Frankenstein mentioned. I am currently about halfway through an old textbook on comparative PIE mythology, so I may have better or more info later on.

Thanks!

 

[Hildeburh]

Yes, it appears that this is pretty similar to what happened amongst the Norse Deities. The supplanted deities of the Vanir, seemed to have a lot in connection with the bounty of the Earth and dominion over Men and Animals (Nerthus, and Freyr come to mind), but these are later supplanted by more distant Sky Gods of the Æsir.

I think you may have that backwards the concept of the sky god is Proto-Indo European; the Sky Father being the chief deity of the Proto-Indo-Europeans which predates what is known of Norse mythology. The closest candidate for sky god is the Germanic God Tiwaz (Tiu/Ziu in Old High German, Tiw in Old English and Tyr in Old Norse), Tiwaz being cognate with the Proto Indo European sky father *dyews. The mythos of Tyr according to Norse mythology seems to have lost any connection to the Proto-Indo European Sky Father. Not sure which deity you would consider a"distant" sky god of the Æsir?

From a comparative religious perspective the war between the Vanir and Æsir is considered as a Proto-Indo European theme but any other conclusions, such as, this represents a war between fertility and war gods/esses or between an earlier indigenous tribe of gods/esses and the incoming Indo European native gods is supposition.

Nerthus is not mentioned in Norse mythology as a member of the Vanir, it has been theorized from an etymological perspective, that she may be a female equivalent of Njord but we will never know unless new sources are found. The Æsir also have a connection to the earth and fertility, Thor of the Æsir is the son of Jörð (earth) and according to the sources has a role in agriculture and fertility.

Also given the strength of cult the of Freyr and Freyja in Scandinavia I'm not sure you can suggest that the Vanir deities were supplanted by the Æsir.

 

[Native]

From a comparative religious perspective the war between the Vanir and Æsir is considered as a Proto-Indo European theme but any other conclusions, such as, this represents a war between fertility and war gods/esses or between an earlier indigenous tribe of gods/esses and the incoming Indo European native gods is supposition.

You´re conflating "human tribal religious oppositions" with celestial matters.

Of course there are no wars between the divine deities, i.e. "creative forces". This interpretation derives from scholars who are helplessly disconnected from the natural knowledge and mythical symbolism in astronomy and cosmology.

Remember, all the 9 realms in Norse Mythology deals with the creation and the World Three and its cosmogonic descriptions.

You have a prime force of creation = For instants the galactic "god" and a "goddess" which reproduce and tranfer their creative powers to their offsprings, i. e. "other deities" as the stars, star constellations, the Sun, Moon, Earth and all its life.

This is the natural mytho-cosmological understanding of myths in general.

 

[The Hammer]

I think you may have that backwards the concept of the sky god is Proto-Indo European; the Sky Father being the chief deity of the Proto-Indo-Europeans which predates what is known of Norse mythology. The closest candidate for sky god is the Germanic God Tiwaz (Tiu/Ziu in Old High German, Tiw in Old English and Tyr in Old Norse), Tiwaz being cognate with the Proto Indo European sky father *dyews. The mythos of Tyr according to Norse mythology seems to have lost any connection to the Proto-Indo European Sky Father. Not sure which deity you would consider a"distant" sky god of the Æsir?

From a comparative religious perspective the war between the Vanir and Æsir is considered as a Proto-Indo European theme but any other conclusions, such as, this represents a war between fertility and war gods/esses or between an earlier indigenous tribe of gods/esses and the incoming Indo European native gods is supposition.

Nerthus is not mentioned in Norse mythology as a member of the Vanir, it has been theorized from an etymological perspective, that she may be a female equivalent of Njord but we will never know unless new sources are found. The Æsir also have a connection to the earth and fertility, Thor of the Æsir is the son of Jörð (earth) and according to the sources has a role in agriculture and fertility.

Also given the strength of cult the of Freyr and Freyja in Scandinavia I'm not sure you can suggest that the Vanir deities were supplanted by the Æsir.

Potentially, I am still learning a lot of this myself. My main forte is not Mythology, and I am trying to improve that . As far as which deity I would have considered a distant sky god of the Æsir, I would posit that Tiw/Tyr takes that spot, due to their relationship with Dyeus, whether or not Tyr is actually related etymologically. But I see the point about there not being a big connection between Tyr and any Distant Sky God, I would say that he qualifies based on the basis of being Supplanted by Odin as the "Chief" deity, and the fading to a lesser (although important) role, as similar to the disappearance or stepping back of the Sky-Father (distant) motif.

 

[DanishCrow]

The giants are much more connected to the material world than, for example, the aesir. See the myth of Thor's fishing trip, for example. The wise Hymir, knowing that actually catching Jormungandr could bring about the end of the world, cuts the fishing rope before Thor can slay the serpent. Such knowledge comes from the Jotnars/Jotunn attunement with primal nature and cosmos, something the world-bound aesir cannot know. The vanir fill out a niche between the two.

this isn't to say the jotnar represent chaos and aesir represent civilisation, this seems to be made up by later christian analysts.