Girl cast a spell on teacher. Gets ex-spelled.

[Quintessence]

Here's the story in the news (from 2000).....
ACLU of Oklahoma Files Federal Lawsuit on Behalf of Student Accused of "Hexing" a Teacher | American Civil Liberties Union

Thanks for providing a source that is worth our time and more impartial and objective.

The deeper story here is that it is one of (sadly) many cases of religious discrimination that have occurred in public schools against minority religions. Given our culture doesn't take spellcraft seriously, that's all we can make this about in terms of the court of law. At most it could be taken as a warning sign that the situation might escalate, because if the student really was Wiccan, she would have been acting in a fashion that violated her own religion. Acting against one's own sense of virtue is a big red flag that something is amiss, and in this case, it was likely the crap treatment she was receiving at the school because of her minority religion status. But it's hard to say. The article is old, the full story is not presented here, and any given situation is always quite complex.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Another thing to consider, though: Would criminalizing"casting spells on someone" serve to help "legitimize" this superstition?

 

[Politesse]

I don't think religious freedoms should extend to simply allowing malevolent magics to be practiced without consequence. After all, truly being religiously tolerant would mean allowing for the possibility that she could have committed a real and tangible crime, and that would be well within the domain of the law if you manged to actually prove it somehow.

But then, I'm not sure the supposed crime is the reason this girl got expelled, either. In fact, I'm pretty certain that's not the case. Why would you expel someone for something you don't believe they can do? But taking advantage of a situation to expel an unpopular student is business as normal for American secondary education.

 

[Shad]

Should have used spell-reflect.

Witchsmeller. ROFLOLPIMP

There's a skeptical facebooker that critiqued a video done by a faith healer in Arizona. She's being sued by him for defamation (and copyright infringement). Since he has rejected her kind offer to drop the suit and just donate money to several charitable organizations, one assumes that Mr. Faith Healer is going to have to prove his abilities in court in order to win.

Should be entertaining!

He dropped his case as she received funding for legal fees by donations. Also the fact that the case falls under fair use clauses already made his case a losing one. He probably would have had to pay for her legal fees in the end anyways.

 

[Shad]

I don't think religious freedoms should extend to simply allowing malevolent magics to be practiced without consequence. After all, truly being religiously tolerant would mean allowing for the possibility that she could have committed a real and tangible crime, and that would be well within the domain of the law if you manged to actually prove it somehow.

But then, I'm not sure the supposed crime is the reason this girl got expelled, either. In fact, I'm pretty certain that's not the case. Why would you expel someone for something you don't believe they can do? But taking advantage of a situation to expel an unpopular student is business as normal for American secondary education.

So religions which dictates unbelievers are to be tortured or destroyed are okay. People whining about homosexuals and other non-believers are fine. By someone casting a spell based on a religion most of humanity rejects is out of line?

Penn and Teller are going to be in trouble!

 

[fantome profane]

Not at all, it's the difference between wanting to hurt someone and trying to hurt someone. That's why I used the analogy of pulling the trigger on a gun they didn't know was unloaded. It's not punishing for wanting to hurt someone, it's punishing them for trying (and failing) to hurt someone. I don't even need an analogy for this, if someone believes an action will hurt someone and they knowingly perform that action, even if unbeknownst to them performing the action has no actual effect, believing an action to have that effect and executing that action is, to me, equivalent to attempting to commit whatever crime is associated with the intent of the performed action. The fact that the desired outcome was physically impossible is irrelevant. That simply means they failed in their attempt to cause harm.

I remember when I was a child in school often I would attempt to kill my teachers with my laser heat vision. Usually right after they assigned homework. I honestly did try this quite often.


(fortunately for them my laser heat vision didn't become dangerous till I was in my mid twenties)

I think if we knew what people (children) were really thinking we would find that these kind of "attempted murders" are very common.

 

[philbo]

Not at all, it's the difference between wanting to hurt someone and trying to hurt someone. That's why I used the analogy of pulling the trigger on a gun they didn't know was unloaded. It's not punishing for wanting to hurt someone, it's punishing them for trying (and failing) to hurt someone. I don't even need an analogy for this, if someone believes an action will hurt someone and they knowingly perform that action, even if unbeknownst to them performing the action has no actual effect, believing an action to have that effect and executing that action is, to me, equivalent to attempting to commit whatever crime is associated with the intent of the performed action. The fact that the desired outcome was physically impossible is irrelevant. That simply means they failed in their attempt to cause harm.

I think you have a point, but with one big "but".. did the wannabe witch have any reason to believe her spell would be effective? Given that the efficacy of black magic is pretty much the same as claiming responsibility for coincidental bad things happening, did she think there was the slightlest chance that her actions could result in harm? If so, there is an attempted harm which failed; if, however, she had even the vestiges of rationality to realize that her spell was unlikely to work, then there can't even be an attempted harm.

There've been a few attempted murders by wannabe suicide bombers whose grasp of what makes explosives go bang was so weak that their "bombs" were never going have the faintest chance of exploding - that actually seems quite similar to me..

Should of used spell-reflect.

,,or a spell checker?
(which still wouldn't have caught the abomination that is "should of" )

 

[Monk Of Reason]

This may be a little controversial, but I think people that pray for bad things to happen or cast spells on people should be held accountable as if they've actually physically attempted the act. It would be difficult to prosecute but if someone truly believes praying or casting spells has a real world effect and they use magic or pray for bad things, to me that's no different than someone thinking a gun was loaded and trying to shoot someone with it. Even though there is zero chance of hurting anyone, they believe when they aim the gun at someone and pull the trigger that they will hurt or kill that person, and the same is true of someone that believes in prayer or magic and tries to hurt someone with it. To me the crime is in the intent.

Is it okay to expell someone for praying for a teacher to get hurt? What if I as an atheist just really really really really really really really want something bad to happen to them and I write it in a journal?

 

[Marisa]

If I take the story correctly concerning the father of the girl, the court is involved here as well.

Of course it is. Face, meet palm.

 

[Marisa]

Is it okay to expell someone for praying for a teacher to get hurt? What if I as an atheist just really really really really really really really want something bad to happen to them and I write it in a journal?

I dunno. I think it's probably one of those things where you let the kid stay and let the culture teach a lesson. But then, most times I think the appropriate response to something someone does to me is no response.

 

[Marisa]

Should of used spell-reflect.




He dropped his case as she received funding for legal fees by donations. Also the fact that the case falls under fair use clauses already made his case a losing one. He probably would have had to pay for her legal fees in the end anyways.

If you're talking about the facebooker I mentioned, I follow her. Her and her lawyer appeared on a podcast I follow, and were hilarious.

 

[Revoltingest]

If spells, hexes, curses & imprecatory prayer actually worked,
I wouldn't be leading such a charmed life. Let'm live their fantasy.

 

[Politesse]

So religions which dictates unbelievers are to be tortured or destroyed are okay. People whining about homosexuals and other non-believers are fine. By someone casting a spell based on a religion most of humanity rejects is out of line?

Of course not, laws should apply equally to everyone.

You're also quite wrong about the commonality of magical beliefs; magic forms a component of every major religion, and even the non-religious often participate in discourses of luck, chance, and ritualized behaviors.

 

[freethinker44]

I remember when I was a child in school often I would attempt to kill my teachers with my laser heat vision. Usually right after they assigned homework. I honestly did try this quite often.


(fortunately for them my laser heat vision didn't become dangerous till I was in my mid twenties)

I think if we knew what people (children) were really thinking we would find that these kind of "attempted murders" are very common.

I'm not talking about fantasizing about killing people, I'm talking about people who truly believe something works and they try to use it to hurt someone. Now, if you truly believed that you had working heat vision and tried to use it, and we could prove this, which would be close to impossible, then yeah attempted murder.

I think you have a point, but with one big "but".. did the wannabe witch have any reason to believe her spell would be effective?

Yeah, that's why I said it would be difficult to prove. You would pretty much need a confession every time.

Is it okay to expel someone for praying for a teacher to get hurt? What if I as an atheist just really really really really really really really want something bad to happen to them and I write it in a journal?

There is a huge difference between wanting something to happen and trying to make something happen. In both of your examples, at a minimum they should have some counseling, but it's not the same situation for each. They both want something bad to happen to their teacher, but the first person takes it a step further and tries to make it happen, so yes, I think it would be OK to expel that student and possible criminal indictment, assuming it could be proved.

 

[Shad]

Of course not, laws should apply equally to everyone.

You're also quite wrong about the commonality of magical beliefs; magic forms a component of every major religion, and even the non-religious often participate in discourses of luck, chance, and ritualized behaviors.

I am talking about magic in regards to her specific religion which is not practiced by say a Christian. You are generalizing magic far too much. However I do understand the point you are trying to make. Like prayer, healing hands, etc. However I was pointing out not the magic itself but the intent behind it which is positive for her and negative for the teacher. Which is nothing unique when it comes to religious dynamics of believe, unbeliever and/or forbidden acts.

 

[Sand Dancer]

The student gets an A on her spelling test.

 

[Politesse]

I am talking about magic in regards to her specific religion which is not practiced by say a Christian. You are generalizing magic far too much. However I do understand the point you are trying to make. Like prayer, healing hands, etc. However I was pointing out not the magic itself but the intent behind it which is positive for her and negative for the teacher. Which is nothing unique when it comes to religious dynamics of believe, unbeliever and/or forbidden acts.

If students are cursing each other in the name of the Christian God, how is that any different?

 

[Shad]

If students are cursing each other in the name of the Christian God, how is that any different?

Difference religious practices and views of what magic is. One is to be cursed by God rather than by the person casting a spell while the other is invoking a spell by internal power. Grant I am assuming lot when it comes to her religion. It really depends on if magic is based on external entities or if magic is a force within nature. Beside I think Christians would classify this as sorcery rather than an act of God as with a curse or pray.

However you are hitting on one of my points. Why should this type of magic be held at any level of the law and justice systems when there are religious texts which are just as bad. If her spell casting should be illegal so should any text with curses or misfortune placed upon others. Many of which target unbelievers or religious taboos. This would make the Quran and Bible illegal. Alternatively we could arrest either religious group in case they or their God curse someone.

 

[fantome profane]

I'm not talking about fantasizing about killing people, I'm talking about people who truly believe something works and they try to use it to hurt someone. Now, if you truly believed that you had working heat vision and tried to use it, and we could prove this, which would be close to impossible, then yeah attempted murder.


Yeah, that's why I said it would be difficult to prove. You would pretty much need a confession every time.

But that is what I just did, I just confessed to attempting to kill my teachers with my heat vision. And there is no statute of limitations on attempted murder. So I guess I could go to jail for this.

(I am not too worried though, I would just bend the bars and fly out).

 

[Shad]

If you're talking about the facebooker I mentioned, I follow her. Her and her lawyer appeared on a podcast I follow, and were hilarious.

Do you have a link to the podcast. It sparked my interest to hear her views outside of articles.