• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Give me Truth.

PureX

Veteran Member
"Math" is a real phenomena, too. It is also made of dynamic molecular energy patters, just like the sheep and the shepherd's stick. The difference, however, is that it is an example not just of physical phenomena, but of metaphysical phenomena. The realm of conscious ideation. The realm of cognition. This is a realm transcendent of the realm of physics, as the realm of three dimensionality transcends the realm of two dimensionality, but still includes it, and is still beholding to it.

The idea of a tree and the tree are both "real".
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Each observer, from his or her point of view / sense of self, and as informed by the senses.
I take it you mean, Has the observer's sense of self changed? Well, in the last ten years mine certainly has; I can't see how anyone alive and well could avoid that to any significant degree.
For example, "I am a member of species H. sap"? Here 'I am' means I make a statement about myself ─ indeed about my sense of self, though that mightn't be true for everyone. The 'membership' concept is a relator between me and the predicate. The species H. sap. is a concept, a taxonomic abstraction about the place of humans on the map of all the varieties of things that have lived. I wouldn't have said that an abstraction was 'insentient', since it's part of mentation, but although I also wouldn't call it 'ever changeful', it can change eg as when H. sap denisova was discovered.
I'm hard-pressed to think of a non-metaphorical statement beginning 'I am' and equating myself with an unconscious predicate. 'I was asleep' perhaps, but not 'I am asleep'.
I don't follow this. 'I am' means 'I exist', and implies I know I exist. It's nice that I exist, but if I didn't, it wouldn't bother me because it couldn't bother me.
No, the body is ambiguous. In some sentences "I" includes my body in my sense of self ─ I ran for the bus ─ and in others it doesn't ─ I find Martinů rather dull ─ and in some the ambiguity is maintained.
The brain is an object but insofar as that rather blurry word 'mind' means the sense of self, 'mind' is much the same thing as the subject.
I sort of get the second sentence, though I wouldn't phrase it like that. As for the third, "I am" either refers to the sense of self, in which case it's sometimes not relevant but I can't think how one might 'forget' it; or you intend to denote something else, but I don't know what.

I did not read the full response, since it was my mistake to jump to the subject of 'discrimination of subject-object'.

In the context of OP, I only wished to point out that self is more direct that an apple on palm. Self being woven through all objective knowledge, is true.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
You are making this confusing. I am not Hindu; so, if you are referring to a Hindu perspective, I am not familar with it.

However, you must speak directly and explain your jargon.

Rephrase your post. Discussions come with clarifications. You cant expect people to understand you off the bat expecially on an world wide internet forum.

Yes. My mistake in hurry.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Right now, I want you to breakdown step-by-step, or crunched down to your best, the very best possible explanation you have at this moment, of the secrets of life and the universe, and what they resonate to you.

If everything is relative and sits under the lamp of truth, which is absolute, you should have no problem freely expressing your ultimate picture of the universe unscrutinized and unscrupulous under its light knowing full well that everything that cometh from the human mouth is filtered and an crafted lie.
That which is perceiveth and thrown into words and uttered is filtered by that very organ to which Jesus fought with and is hereby proclaim Satan or the Human Mind.

But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
I think God/the Divine has left things vague because the point is that this is supposed to be a personal journey. No one can give it to you. Seek. The truth is everywhere. There are signs all around you. You simply have to develop the kind of eyes that see.

Find the sort of path that works for you. For some people, it is reading the works of great wisdom. For others it is in doing works of great charity or finding a cause. For some it is spending time in prayer and meditation. For others it is in examining truth claims of various religions rationally and choosing one form or another to follow.

I personally don't think you can get through your quest without doing your homework. IOW your quest is a long one, one that will require a lot of hard work and years of study. You might as well have fun with it -- be excited as you learn new things.

As for the core, I think there are certain things that will come up over and over again.

1. There is a power greater than ourselves -- serve him/her/it. It goes by different names: God, Tao, the Divine, the Great Mystery, and many others. But if you experience him/here/it, you recognize that all these labels refer to the same essence. It is the source of all things, the foundation of the universe. It is an essence which inspires love, joy, peace, and fear simultaneously. When these feelings all come at the same time, we call it worship.

Something mysteriously formed,
Born before heaven and earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
I do not know its name.
Call it Tao.
For lack of a better word, I call it great.


Tao te Ching #25


2. Our actions matter. We are accountable. In most systems, it is the Divine which holds us accountable. Sometimes the consequences are eternal. Sometimes the consequences are in our next life. Sometimes the consequences are in this life, as in "A man reaps what he sows." (Galatians 6:7) The point are that there are personal consequences, both carnal and spiritual.


Being a Jew, I tend to encourage ethical monotheism in any form -- we are not very picky about what religion non-Jews choose. But I think that Points #1 and #2 are summed up in the greatest book of wisdom ever written (and proudly from my own sacred texts):
Ecclesiastes 12:13
When all is said and done, this one thing remains: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole of man.
 
Last edited:

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
self is more direct that an apple on palm.
Inside is closer than outside, as it were.
Self being woven through all objective knowledge, is true.
Yes, which is why consensus is part of assessing what is true: scientific method maximizes objectivity, and is far more successful at this than any other approach.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Inside is closer than outside, as it were.

Inside-outside is an appearance.

Yes, which is why consensus is part of assessing what is true: scientific method maximizes objectivity, and is far more successful at this than any other approach.

Do you think that a person who knows 1 million consensual truths is closer to truth than a person who knows little -- only one or two consensual truths. Or do you think that one who knows Newton's laws and Einstein's laws are closer to truth than one who knows nothing as in deep sleep or in samAdhi -- when in full consciousness one knows that objects have no real substantives of their own?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you think that a person who knows 1 million consensual truths is closer to truth than a person who knows little
That would depend on the objectivity that they bring to the examinable evidence, and the
Or do you think that one who knows Newton's laws and Einstein's laws are closer to truth than one who knows nothing as in deep sleep or in samAdhi -- when in full consciousness one knows that objects have no real substantives of their own?
What do you mean, an object that has no real substantive[ness?]? That we know atoms have parts, and that below those parts there may be further parts, but that at base there's simply quantum shimmer?

And now you know how I define truth ─ a statement is true to the extent that it corresponds with objective reality ─ and test for it ─ using objective standards and the best available opinions ─ what definition of truth do you use, and how do you test for it?

You also know that I think there are no absolute truths outside this sentence. Do you think there are absolute truths? If you do, what's an example?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
That would depend on the objectivity that they bring to the examinable evidence, and the

Probably the sentence was not completed.


What do you mean, an object that has no real substantive[ness?]? That we know atoms have parts, and that below those parts there may be further parts, but that at base there's simply quantum shimmer?

And now you know how I define truth ─ a statement is true to the extent that it corresponds with objective reality ─ and test for it ─ using objective standards and the best available opinions ─ what definition of truth do you use, and how do you test for it?

You also know that I think there are no absolute truths outside this sentence. Do you think there are absolute truths? If you do, what's an example?

Yes. I understand what you mean by truth. It is transactional truth.

Now, do you think that ‘you’ as the ultimate knower “there are no absolute truths”, is also a transactional truth? You are also consensual opinion based truth?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes. I understand what you mean by truth. It is transactional truth.
What does 'transactional truth' mean?

And what is your definition of truth? What test do you use to tell whether a statement is true or not?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
What does 'transactional truth' mean?

And what is your definition of truth? What test do you use to tell whether a statement is true or not?

Sir, I asked you “Now, do you think that ‘you’ as the ultimate knower “there are no absolute truths”, is also a transactional truth? You are also consensual opinion based truth?”

Can we ponder over this first , if you wish?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sir, I asked you “Now, do you think that ‘you’ as the ultimate knower “there are no absolute truths”, is also a transactional truth? You are also consensual opinion based truth?”

Can we ponder over this first , if you wish?
Certainly, if you wish. But first, what is a 'transactional truth'?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Certainly, if you wish. But first, what is a 'transactional truth'?

Okay. From Vedantic point of view, truth can be the ultimate ''pAramArthika' (that is unchangeable and true at three periods of time: past, present, and future. There is at our usage level, the 'vyAvArika' or transactional truths that are situational.

I can provide an approximate example. A gold chain and a gold ring are two different things from transactional POV. But from the POV of gold there are not two. It is gold all along. This is the pArAmarthika or the immutable truth.

Hope it explains.
 
Last edited:

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
From Vedantic point of view, truth can be the ultimate ''pAramArthika' (that is unchangeable and true at three periods of time: past, present, and future.
So what test do we use to determine whether Statement X is true or not? That is, unless it's true, it won't matter that it refers to past, present and future.

I also don't see how a truth can be unchangeable eg it used to be true that the world was flat and the sun went round it.
There is at our usage level, the 'vyAvArika' or transactional truths that are situational.
I don't understand this. The statements 'With personal decoration, ring and chain have distinct definitions' and 'Examples of rings made of gold and chains made of gold exist' are both true, in that they accurately reflect reality. What does the 'transaction' idea have to do with any of that? We can make factually accurate (= true) statements about any real thing or situation, transaction or not, can't we?
 
Last edited:

atanu

Member
Premium Member
So what test do we use to determine whether Statement X is true or not? That is, unless it's true, it won't matter that it refers to past, present and future.

It is more or less the same Epistemology that you use. Below, I give few links that present the subject in increasing order o sophistication. Especially, I will recommend you to go through the references provided in SEP. I follow advaita vedanta, which is most aligned with Navya Nyaya philosophic school.

Pramana - Wikipedia
Advaita Vedanta - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navya-Nyāya
Nyaya - Wikipedia

Analytic Philosophy in Early Modern India (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Perceptual Experience and Concepts in Classical Indian Philosophy (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology-india/

Hope you will enjoy.
...

BUT, the self is self proven. No epistemology is required.


I also don't see how a truth can be unchangeable eg it used to be true that the world was flat and the sun went round it.
I don't understand this. The statements 'With personal decoration, ring and chain have distinct definitions' and 'Examples of rings made of gold and chains made of gold exist' are both true, in that they accurately reflect reality. What does the 'transaction' idea have to do with any of that? We can make factually accurate (= true) statements about any real thing or situation, transaction or not, can't we?

The gold example is an example, a metaphor. The point is that there are two levels. A level of gold ornaments and another level of gold itself. I do not think that the western ontology and epistemology ever took this approach. But I may be wrong. So, I suggest that you first examine the differences in truths from POV of ornaments and from POV of gold.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
May be some day I will, but all I need at the moment is your concept of truth, expressed as the test which any statement must pass to be true. Please let me have that briefly and in clear terms, because that's what I need to understand what you're saying.
The gold example is an example, a metaphor. The point is that there are two levels. A level of gold ornaments and another level of gold itself.
But what has that to do with truth? Are you saying that there are two kinds of truth, one for which gold is an analogy, the other for which gold ornaments are an analogy? I'm afraid that doesn't help ─ either way I have to ask again, 'What do your mean by truth?'. Please let me simply have your concept of truth, your test for truth and we can go on from there.
 
Last edited:

atanu

Member
Premium Member
May be some day I will, but all I need at the moment is your concept of truth, expressed as the test which any statement must pass to be true. Please let me have that briefly and in clear terms, because that's what I need to understand what you're saying.
But what has that to do with truth? Are you saying that there are two kinds of truth, one for which gold is an analogy, the other for which gold ornaments are an analogy? I'm afraid that doesn't help ─ either way I have to ask again, 'What do your mean by truth?'. Please let me simply have your concept of truth, your test for truth and we can go on from there.

Yes. I am saying that truth is two layered. No. Three layered as per Advaita Vedanta that I follow. But before I go further, can I request you to provide me your definition and the test/s for truth? And particularly what will be the epistemology for the subject "I"?
 
Last edited:

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes. I am saying that truth is two layered.
But you still haven't told me exactly what is two-layered. Or three-layered.
can I request you to provide me your definition and the test/s for truth? And particularly what will be the epistemology for the subject "I"?
Yes, though I've already spelt it out more than once.

Truth is conformity with (objective) reality. A statement is true to the extent that it conforms with / accurately reflects / corresponds to, reality.

Thus the test of the truth of any statement is its correspondence with reality.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Inside is closer than outside, as it were.
Another 'advaitist' here (Strong atheist and a Hindu), trying to clarify things from our side. Closer or farther, inside is the same as outside. Yes, agree, scientific method maximizes objectivity.
What do you mean, an object that has no real substantive[ness]? That we know atoms have parts, and that below those parts there may be further parts, but that at base there's simply quantum shimmer?

You also know that I think there are no absolute truths outside this sentence. Do you think there are absolute truths? If you do, what's an example?
Possible. Virtual particles. What if 'what exists' arises from 'absolute void' - Ex-nihilo? Science at the moment cannot definitely say anything about that.

Absolute Truth, we are not yet there unless science answers the 'Ex-nihilo' problem, but we are getting close.
What does 'transactional truth' mean?
That is what we humans can observe with our senses in daily life and generally term it as truth, which it is not. Another name for it is 'Pragmatic Truth'. In our books, it is mentioned as 'Vyavahrika Satya'.

These are the two levels of truth, the 'Absolute' (Paramarthika Satya - 'Final Meaning') which we do not really know till now, but may find it in this 21st Century and the observed/Transactional/Pragmatic truth. There is a third level also, that is of a deranged mind, a person who is dreaming, etc. That is mentioned in our books as 'Pratibhasika Satya' - Mirrored reality. Our friend Atanu may have something to say about it (he has more scriptural knowledge), but I do not think it matters much in our discussion.
'What do your mean by truth?'. Please let me simply have your concept of truth, your test for truth and we can go on from there.
That is simple - 'What is not falsifiable'. It must have scientific sanction.
Truth is conformity with (objective) reality. A statement is true to the extent that it conforms with / accurately reflects / corresponds to, reality.
Now you have put a spanner in the works. What is reality (as if we know it!)? Do you think existence is the reality? Buddha said 'no'. 'Anicca' (non-permanent), 'Anatta' (non-substantial).
 
Last edited:

atanu

Member
Premium Member
A statement is true to the extent that it conforms with / accurately reflects / corresponds to, reality.

Thus the test of the truth of any statement is its correspondence with reality.

So, do you mean to say that we assume that the reality is already known? And then what is this correspondence?

I genuinely do not understand this. If you could please explain this with an example.

Thanks in advance.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Another 'advaitist' here (Strong atheist and a Hindu), trying to clarify things from our side.
Yo!
Closer or farther, inside is the same as outside.
Well, as a concept, 'near' implies and requires the concept 'far', and both are aspects of the concept 'relative distance'; and 'inside' implies and requires the concept 'outside'; and both are aspects of the concept 'relative enclosure'. But I can't see how they're the same thing, since then 'closer' and 'farther', 'inside' and 'outside', would be synonyms, and they're not.
What if 'what exists' arises from 'absolute void' - Ex-nihilo? Science at the moment cannot definitely say anything about that.
In a true nothing are neither entities nor phenomena nor dimensions, no where and no when; so how can there be change without anything to change, and without time to change it in? So my favorite hypothesis is the idea, expressed as monism to keep things clear, that what exists is mass-energy, and that time, space and everything else are properties of mass-energy ie exist because mass-energy does, not vice versa. (Pity I can't demonstrate its correctness ─ it'd save a lot of theology.)
Absolute Truth, we are not yet there unless science answers the 'Ex-nihilo' problem, but we are getting close.
There are many problems with the notion of absolute truth. First, there is no final demonstration that a world exists external to the self (that solipsism is wrong), or that we're not elements in a hyperbeing's tron game (or, some say, dream) or that the universe, with us in it, was not Last Thursday'd ─ in each case the contrary is an assumption. Second, scientific method proceeds by empiricism and induction, so the conclusions of science are never final, in that nothing protects them from a counterexample we may find tomorrow, or never find. (As Brian Cox put it, a law of physics is a statement about physics that hasn't yet been falsified.) And so on.
That is what we humans can observe with our senses in daily life and generally term it as truth, which it is not.
It is, according to my definition: a statement is true to the extent that it conforms with / accurately reflects / corresponds to (external) reality.

What definition are you using? When you say there are two levels of 'truth', what do you mean by 'truth'? What test shows whether any statement about reality is true or false?
Our friend Atanu may have something to say about it (he has more scriptural knowledge), but I do not think it matters much in our discussion.That is simple - 'What is not falsifiable'. It must have scientific sanction.Now you have put a spanner in the works. What is reality (as if we know it!)? Do you think existence is the reality? Buddha said 'no'. 'Anicca' (non-permanent), 'Anatta' (non-substantial).
I respectfully disagree with the Buddha, though I like quite a bit of what he said. I start with three assumptions (which I have to do, since I can't demonstrate that any of them is correct without first assuming it's correct) ─ that a world exists external to the self, that our senses are capable of informing us of that world, and that reason is a valid tool. (Anyone who posts here thereby demonstrates agreement with the first two, and I have to hope with the third.)

And having done that (and cutting a long story short), I find I'm a materialist because so far nothing else makes sense. (By 'materialism' I mean the view that only those entities and processes which are recognized by physics from time to time are real, as the metaphysician Jack Smart, with metaphysician David Armstrong, put it. That is, 'reality' is the same thing as nature, the realm of the physical sciences, the set of all things with objective existence.)

The idea of truth is therefore not fixed, but at any time it has an objective test, the correspondence-with-reality that I mentioned above.
 
Last edited:
Top