Global Warming ???

[iholdit]

Or... they could get a tankless water heater.

No standby heat loss (i.e. the kind you're reducing - but not eliminating - by turning your water heater off at night) AND no lukewarm water hanging around to grow nasty things, so it's a win-win.

However, it creates another problem: while the total energy used is less, tankless heaters are more "peaky", using high power over short durations instead of low power all day. This can create problems for a utility trying to control demand, whether electricity or natural gas... though it probably wouldn't be much worse than what you do, heating up your whole hot water tank from cold at some of the higher-demand times of day.

I was under the impression that some of the higher demand times were during normal business hours, when busineses are using large amounts of electricity for computers and other machinery. This is the time when i suggested most water heaters would be turned off, at least during warmer months in the northern u.s.

I now live in the southern u.s. so my water heater is hardly ever on. I only use it to wash dishes like 3 times a week or the rare times it is predicted to be very cold. But now that you mentioned the risk for legionnaires i will probably invest in a tankless water heater, even though i have the filltration system in effect. I was thinking about going solar but i will have to explore the situation and i would appreciate any suggestions as water heaters are not my area of expertise.

Ultimately my point was there are other things people in the northern u.s. could do to offset the extra energy use, that they dont usually do. But im glad i brought up water heaters because your posts will make me do more research.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I was under the impression that some of the higher demand times were during normal business hours, when busineses are using large amounts of electricity for computers and other machinery. This is the time when i suggested most water heaters would be turned off, at least during warmer months in the northern u.s.

The graph here is for Ontario, and it's pretty typical: Ontario Wholesale Electricity Demand and Price Information

Demand is lowest in the middle of the night when everyone's asleep and higher during waking hours, with peaks first thing in the morning and again after work in the evening.

In most homes, hot water demand is highest first thing in the morning when people are showering, as well as in the evening when people are washing clothes and dishes... right at the times of peak demand generally.

 

[iholdit]

The graph here is for Ontario, and it's pretty typical: Ontario Wholesale Electricity Demand and Price Information

Demand is lowest in the middle of the night when everyone's asleep and higher during waking hours, with peaks first thing in the morning and again after work in the evening.

In most homes, hot water demand is highest first thing in the morning when people are showering, as well as in the evening when people are washing clothes and dishes... right at the times of peak demand generally.

I think you are talking about residential peaks and not overall peaks. In the u.s. for example commercial energy use for lighting(which is one of the major uses of energy in the u.s.) is about 1/3 higher than residential use. Commercial peaks seem to be during normal business hours. So it would seem there is more energy being used during normal business hours, but you are correct morning and early evening are when residential peaks are.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think you are talking about residential peaks and not overall peaks.

No, the graphs on that page are overall usage for all electricity in entire province, with the possible exception of extreme northern communities that generate their own power and aren't connected to the main grid.

 

[iholdit]

No, the graphs on that page are overall usage for all electricity in entire province, with the possible exception of extreme northern communities that generate their own power and aren't connected to the main grid.

I was on my phone when i looked at your link and it didnt show the graphs. It appears you are correct. A look at californias electric use shows a very similar trend as ontario.
California ISO: System Status

 

[stupified]

Hahaha I don't think a person here doubts global warming. Nobody nowadays is that stupid.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Hahaha I don't think a person here doubts global warming. Nobody nowadays is that stupid.

GIGO If you have corrupt data, you will reach a corrupt conclusion. I have something for you to ponder. Do really smart people go around and call others stupid or is it just the marginally intelligent folks that do that?

 

[stupified]

I don't believe I am calling anybody stupid. Because I don't believe that anybody here doesn't believe in global warming. I don't think you question it either. People want to act like they still don't believe it (because they have said they don't for so long) but by now the evidence is clear. If all the top scientists of the world believe it, I am sure you believe it too.

 

[stupified]

If by marginally intelligent equates to being at the top of my class working on a Phd in applied electromagnetics at a top ten ranked graduate school, then yes I am marginally intelligent.

 

[stupified]

GIGO If you have corrupt data, you will reach a corrupt conclusion. I have something for you to ponder. Do really smart people go around and call others stupid or is it just the marginally intelligent folks that do that?

Alright, I regret calling people stupid. It is childish. My apologies. I still don't believe that you think it is corrupt data with corrupt conclusions. My wife did her Master's thesis on it. So much CO2 sinking into the ocean that the shells of shellfish are beginning to dissolve (from the carbonic acid). Scary stuff.

 

[stupified]

If anybody wants to have a civil debate about whether global warming is real or not, let me know. My wife studied it for 5 years, and I know a thing or two about the subject. Be prepared to get humiliated.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Alright, I regret calling people stupid. It is childish. My apologies. I still don't believe that you think it is corrupt data with corrupt conclusions. My wife did her Master's thesis on it. So much CO2 sinking into the ocean that the shells of shellfish are beginning to dissolve (from the carbonic acid). Scary stuff.

I have never said that I know better than the scientists. I have an MBA and admit my science education is lacking.

It is the, "how dare you question global warming" attitude that gives me pause. I will admit that I am biased in favor of business. I enjoy pointing out the similarities the man made crowd has to religion.

If we get past this debate however, where does it take us?

Would we be willing to boycott India and China if they do not comply with certain standards? The whole earth has to be involved at the same time to have any results. It does little good for one country to sacrifice while their neighbor still pollutes. It might make you feel good, but it will not effect the planet.

Are people really ready to live a green life?

Are men going to unplug their big screens and women throw away their hair dryers?

It is easy to talk a good game and posture, I guess I am just a skeptic at heart.

 

[Kathryn]

Amen, Rick. I would add something but it would be superfluous.

 

[Oberon]

If all the top scientists of the world believe it, I am sure you believe it too.

They don't though. Some of the world's leading climate scientists don't believe that AGW theory is correct. Lindzen, Spencer, & Christy, for example, are all leaders in the field who don't believe it.

 

[TJ73]

I wish I could remember where and the details. May be someone knows about it. I read some rather simple effective means to counter atmospheric changes involving balloons. It was so simple and so effective, I'll try to find the book and get back if this doesn't ring a bell to anyone.

 

[Alceste]

I wish I could remember where and the details. May be someone knows about it. I read some rather simple effective means to counter atmospheric changes involving balloons. It was so simple and so effective, I'll try to find the book and get back if this doesn't ring a bell to anyone.

Lovelock's the Vanishing Face of Gaia mentions this, I think, among several other technology-based cooling techniques.

 

[Alceste]

I have never said that I know better than the scientists. I have an MBA and admit my science education is lacking.

It is the, "how dare you question global warming" attitude that gives me pause. I will admit that I am biased in favor of business. I enjoy pointing out the similarities the man made crowd has to religion.

If we get past this debate however, where does it take us?

Would we be willing to boycott India and China if they do not comply with certain standards? The whole earth has to be involved at the same time to have any results. It does little good for one country to sacrifice while their neighbor still pollutes. It might make you feel good, but it will not effect the planet.

Are people really ready to live a green life?

Are men going to unplug their big screens and women throw away their hair dryers?

It is easy to talk a good game and posture, I guess I am just a skeptic at heart.

I'm willing, as are many of my friends and neighbours. Not just "willing" but actively making a transition to a permaculture lifestyle. It's not rocket science. Eat local, shop little, put on a sweater instead of cranking the heat, grow veggies, bike more, drive less, work from home.

The key is that where others have a boycott list of "main environmental offenders", we have an "approved goods and services" list and just forget about everything else.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm willing, as are many of my friends and neighbours. Not just "willing" but actively making a transition to a permaculture lifestyle. It's not rocket science. Eat local, shop little, put on a sweater instead of cranking the heat, grow veggies, bike more, drive less, work from home.

What's great is that these things are worth doing even if one cares naught about global
warming. You save money, get exercise, save time & cut environmental pollution.
Good economic policy is often quite green. The important thing is to avoid bad economics
in the name of "green".

 

[Reverend Rick]

I'm willing, as are many of my friends and neighbours. Not just "willing" but actively making a transition to a permaculture lifestyle. It's not rocket science. Eat local, shop little, put on a sweater instead of cranking the heat, grow veggies, bike more, drive less, work from home.

The key is that where others have a boycott list of "main environmental offenders", we have an "approved goods and services" list and just forget about everything else.

The thing is, "green" is not always easy or convenient. Running a clothes dryer is much easier than using a clothes line. Especially in the winter time.

Tending a garden or canning vegetables is hard work. Most people want to burn gasoline in line to a fast food window.

So many people think wind and solar is the answer, but the technology is still lacking. People want a constant energy supply. The wind and sun are not constant like a power generation plant can be.

Electric cars burn more coal in many cases. Hybrids and compact light bulbs has recycling issues and concerns.

I don't think too many folks are really ready to reduce their carbon footprint.

This is what is going to happen. Alternative energy is going to be expensive and less plentiful. It will force us all to use less.

When I go by a school with hundreds of parents dropping their children off at the front door like celebrities wasting gasoline when there are buses or children could walk or ride bicycles. After school they head for the drive thru. On weekends they go to the movies and walk through huge malls that are energy hogs.

It sounds so cool to be green. Easy talk, harder walk.

 

[Alceste]

The thing is, "green" is not always easy or convenient. Running a clothes dryer is much easier than using a clothes line. Especially in the winter time.

Tending a garden or canning vegetables is hard work. Most people want to burn gasoline in line to a fast food window.

So many people think wind and solar is the answer, but the technology is still lacking. People want a constant energy supply. The wind and sun are not constant like a power generation plant can be.

Electric cars burn more coal in many cases. Hybrids and compact light bulbs has recycling issues and concerns.

I don't think too many folks are really ready to reduce their carbon footprint.

This is what is going to happen. Alternative energy is going to be expensive and less plentiful. It will force us all to use less.

When I go by a school with hundreds of parents dropping their children off at the front door like celebrities wasting gasoline when there are buses or children could walk or ride bicycles. After school they head for the drive thru. On weekends they go to the movies and walk through huge malls that are energy hogs.

It sounds so cool to be green. Easy talk, harder walk.

True dat. North American cities are designed for cars, though, so citizens can't be held entirely responsible for their dependence on them. Also, North American houses and appliances are inefficient and require masses of energy. There are big changes coming, that's for sure. In twenty years nobody will want to live in a suburban bungalow. They won't be able to afford the energy cost or the cost of the commute to work.

Our town is better set up for walkers and bikers than the average N. A. town. It's a long way to the nearest Wal-Mart, and for the most part nobody goes there. I work in a locally owned music store and people generally don't bother making the trip to the larger chain store (the Wal-Mart of music stores) because they have a "shop local" mentality. Also, the price of the gas outweighs any savings they might get.

Almost every day a customer says something to the effect of "I'm here because I believe in shopping locally / supporting local businesses". This mentality is seeping into public awareness, but can only result in behavioral changes because the community I live in allows for it and nurtures it. There's no point believing in re-localization if all you've got in your area are strip malls and box stores.