EverChanging
Well-Known Member
Do any Gnostic Christians stay in mainstream churches and interpret the doctrines and liturgies in a gnostic way?
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I do. I attend an Episcopal church.Do any Gnostic Christians stay in mainstream churches and interpret the doctrines and liturgies in a gnostic way?
I do. I attend an Episcopal church.
Do your beliefs involve a demiurge and so on?
Are you still able to re-interpret the Nicene Creed, sacraments, and so on?
"Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return."
Hmmm....How to explain this....Gnosis - is perhaps best described as the "living truth" - the truth that is revealed by direct experience....
There is a difference between Gnosis and Gnosticism as a religious system. The mystic uses Gnosis to understand the things of Spirit. Gnosticism however, historically was in fact wrapped in a certain dualistic set of teachings, such as the urge and demiurge, the falsity of the flesh, and so forth. Modern scholars made the mistake of lumping everything that was not the orthodoxy under the umbrella term Gnosticism, whereas in reality that was an error. The Gospel of Thomas was called a Gnostic Gospel, whereas in reality it is not. It is part of the Wisdom School traditions.Hmmm....How to explain this....Gnosis - is perhaps best described as the "living truth" - the truth that is revealed by direct experience....
Mysticism, and that is what you are actually talking about, can and does exist within formalized structure. Though a gnostic experience itself transcends anything that can be taught or comprehended by the mind, such experiences do in fact have to be interpreted by the individuals who have them, and frameworks of interpretation are needed in order to take what is opened to and bring it into the world. The effect is that of transforming understanding, through transcending our ideas of them. But we don't live outside the reality of our own human existence, and thus we need interpretive frameworks.To that end - there can never even be a formalised,or institutionalised Gnostic(ism)....as soon as you begin to structure the process - lay down rules,regulations,doctrines,rituals - as soon as you apply any of that structuring,you have lost the essence of the endeavour itself,which is to find the LIVING truth of Self....Simply put - you cannot attain Gnosis of Self - if the mind is already full of "other peoples truths" - do you see..?...
No, not necessarily. You can have a support community that encourages and supports interior practices, and in fact they are integral to one being able to fully integrate what is opened to. Again, you have to have interpretive frameworks, but understood that these are NOT substitutes for interior work. Most take them as such, and that is an error. But if you look at Buddhism its three jewels are Buddha, Darmha, Sangha. Buddha is the gnostic, interior transcendent awareness; Darmha is the teachings the directional and interpretive frameworks; and Sangha is the support community. These three together help to form and shape the person into spiritual growth. Simply having a Satori experience without grounding, can in fact lead to a dissociation, which is not healthy. Seeking freedom from illusion is vital, but so is grounding that freedom into one's own body and mind. Though the relative is not the Absolute, we still live in the relative.If the mind is full of such PRECONCEPTIONS,then the truth of Self will never be revealed...To attian Gnosis - one MUST first EMPTY the self completly - literally seek and enter a void and empty silent mode within the Self...Obviously - all forms of public gathering,will fully prohibit this internal journey
Considering there were organized groups within early Christianity such as the Valentinians which were very much teaching and practicing mystical approaches, obviously it's wrong to say that it cannot exist in an organized body. I do respect your point of view that it can and does get lost however when the structures override the pursuit of Spirit in one's life, wholly externalizing it and slamming the door on those who attempt to open it.- mind busty and filled "out there" in the world,will most definately miss the sublte inner communion.....So most obviosuy then - absolutely no gnostic(ism) - no church or formal gatherings - no LEADERS to teach for the truth is revealed from WITHIN..This Presence is of course,The Hoily Ghost as the formalised religion would know it..
That's actually untrue. Traditional gnosticism is a dualistic school of thought which sees this world as false and only the spiritual as true. That's the formal sense of the word Gnostic, as opposed to how you are using it which is simply gnosis in the mystical sense.There is no such thng as a "gnostic church" - or indeed no such thng as gnostic(ism)...There is no gnostic doctrine - no gnostic prayers or rituals - such thngs simpy do not exist
Gnosticism however, historically was in fact wrapped in a certain dualistic set of teachings, such as the urge and demiurge, the falsity of the flesh, and so forth.
The Gospel of Thomas was called a Gnostic Gospel, whereas in reality it is not. It is part of the Wisdom School traditions.
Though a gnostic experience itself transcends anything that can be taught or comprehended by the mind, such experiences do in fact have to be interpreted by the individuals who have them, and frameworks of interpretation are needed in order to take what is opened to and bring it into the world.
The effect is that of transforming understanding, through transcending our ideas of them. But we don't live outside the reality of our own human existence, and thus we need interpretive frameworks.
He who shall drink from my mouth will become like Me. I myself shall become that One and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him."
Yeah, Satan, who has poisoned the minds and hearts of humanity, filling us with greed, hatred and arrogance that leads us to making this realm into a hellish experience. He is the closest thing to a demiurge in my belief, although he is not the true Creator. He is a counterfeit, weaving illusions and perversions.Do your beliefs involve a demiurge and so on?
I believe in them as-is.Are you still able to re-interpret the Nicene Creed, sacraments, and so on?
Interesting post, thanks for writing it.He said - and indeed, when we look honestly at the things He said,side by side - we see clearly,He is leading us away from the temple public worship - fully so - insistantly so - and replacing it with a form of deep and personal meditation,that does ACTUALLY bare results that we can each witness for our Self directly...The gnostics "temple" is his own interior mind...The Holy of Holies - the covering veil - is a definate barrier WITHIN the mind - a threshold where surface dynamic mind here,crossses into tranquil Dvine Silence..Find that place,thenarrow gate,push through that veil,open that narow Gate within and claim your truth,claim your eternal nature...THIS IS GNOSIS>....
I think a better way to describe what you are trying to say is illumination. Yes, technically the word gnosis means knowledge and one could say that what one realizes in mystical experience is gnosis, but I would say in the mystical sense gnosis is more the type of knowing itself and how one receives it through the eyes of contemplation. Let me explain by quoting from Ken Wilber's fantastic book on the various types of knowing, or epistemologies. In his book Eye to Eye he explains the differences between the eye of flesh, the eye of mind, and the eye of contemplation.There is a difference between Gnosis and Gnosticism as a religious system. The mystic uses Gnosis to understand the things of Spirit. Gnosticism however, historically was in fact wrapped in a certain dualistic set of teachings, such as the urge and demiurge, the falsity of the flesh, and so forth. Modern scholars made the mistake of lumping everything that was not the orthodoxy under the umbrella term Gnosticism, whereas in reality that was an error. The Gospel of Thomas was called a Gnostic Gospel, whereas in reality it is not. It is part of the Wisdom School traditions.
Hmm...The first part - the Mystic uses gnosis to understand things of spirit....Yer kind of - but more like actually - the Gnosis itself,is the very thing "revealed by spirit" - do you see..?..Slightly differet emphasis,but completly new meaning.
Not necessarily as I explained above in the 5 basic types of knowing. There is certainly nothing inauthentic about sensory knowledge. There is nothing inauthentic about empiric-analytic knowledge, nor hermeneutic, nor mandelic knowledge. Gnosis is not the end all be all form of knowledge. It's not going to tell you about the laws of physics bypassing doing science, although I think some mistakenly imagine so. That would not be mystical awareness, it's magical thinking.The understanding revealed by spirt,IS GNOSIS itself - anything else,is academic,secondhand knowldge - truth from another source outside of Self,and is therefore,a less authentic truth..
Well, be careful here. I don't think understanding "lesser knowledge" as useless is a healthy approach, nor do I believe that is what Jesus meant or intended to be the takeaway. Indeed yes, "seek first the kingdom of God", or "make clean the inside of the cup first", but this does not mean the world or the things in it are "useless". Indeed they are quite useful, and necessary. What the message of seek first the kingdom is meant to say is that if our inner person is weak then looking to find it outside ourselves in things will not result it it be filled. Don't fixate on the things of the world to offer interior or soul-sustenance. If you are internally aware, then how you function in the world we be greatly enhances and made more useful. The spiritual opens one to a life more abundant, but living that live more abundant takes place in the world.Christ explaned it with parables of fish - throwing back the small useless ones,to keep only the biggest fish (truth) - and similar with parables of pearls - a merchnt buys many many goods (truths),and among them he finds an exquisite pearl that outshines all else - he sells the rest as not needed,but keeps this pearl for himself..He says to always seek this inner guide,fo only it can reveal truth out inthe world He says - this is the essence f true gnosis - have the truth first and foremost,then and only then can we hope to apply it to he world out there...
In a sense we are saying the same thing, but I feel with a different understanding. Something I think you may be failing to understand here is that even though we may have spirit to spirit knowing, or a gnostic experience, what is opened to in this, what is "revealed", what is exposed, what Truth shines through, does in fact have to be then, after the fact, interpreted by the thinking mind. At this point, this Spiritual Knowledge, no longer is gnostic, but soteriological, or mandelic knowledge. Do you follow this? I'll try to explain better.See then,the gnostic is only seeking after that inner truth - he will discover it first before the world lays any definition upon it - indeed,he can then take the original authentic truth so revealed,and apply it to the world out there,to see through its deceptions...
What is understood through these expeirence is not the world is deception or an illusion itself, but that how we viewed that world with our minds as the reality of the world itself was an illusion. It's not that a rock doesn't exist, but how we understood it was misleading in that we did not see the Ultimate Reality, but rather separation, isolation, and fallenness. Our minds create the illusion, and illuminating the mind removes that veil. It's really no more complex than that. It's the same world, just understood with the illumined mind instead of the darkened imagination. The only thing that changes is our perception.But of course - if we first fail or do not seek thjis authentic truth,then all we can hope to find out there in the world,is deception,surely so - it it the Presence calle forth during the gnostic communion - the Holy Ghost as the religion terms it - this is essntial - for only IT knows such truth from such illusion...