EverChanging
Well-Known Member
Do any Gnostic Christians stay in mainstream churches and interpret the doctrines and liturgies in a gnostic way?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Gnostic Christians
- Thread starter EverChanging
- Start date
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Yes I was one, I was told how to understand the gospel, but I had a inner feeling that it was wrong and made so senses, but in the Gnostic way of thinking it made much more sense to me, but I have to say that I had to leave my church as I wasn't growing in spiritually.
nazz
Doubting Thomas
I do. I attend an Episcopal church.
EverChanging
Well-Known Member
Do your beliefs involve a demiurge and so on? Are you still able to re-interpret the Nicene Creed, sacraments, and so on?
nazz
Doubting Thomas
Yes, but more as a metaphor for the creative unfoldment of this universe.
I don't necessarily reinterpret them. I take them as they are whether I fully agree or not.
Yeah, I'm Catholic but I've always had a Gnostic bent with some LHP influences. Wrap your mind around that. :/
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks....
Hmmm....How to explain this....Gnosis - is perhaps best described as the "living truth" - the truth that is revealed by direct experience....
To that end - there can never even be a formalised,or institutionalised Gnostic(ism)....as soon as you begin to structure the process - lay down rules,regulations,doctrines,rituals - as soon as you apply any of that structuring,you have lost the essence of the endeavour itself,which is to find the LIVING truth of Self....Simply put - you cannot attain Gnosis of Self - if the mind is already full of "other peoples truths" - do you see..?...
If the mind is full of such PRECONCEPTIONS,then the truth of Self will never be revealed...To attian Gnosis - one MUST first EMPTY the self completly - literally seek and enter a void and empty silent mode within the Self...Obviously - all forms of public gathering,will fully prohibit this internal journey - mind busty and filled "out there" in the world,will most definately miss the sublte inner communion.....So most obviosuy then - absolutely no gnostic(ism) - no church or formal gatherings - no LEADERS to teach for the truth is revealed from WITHIN..This Presence is of course,The Hoily Ghost as the formalised religion would know it..
There is no such thng as a "gnostic church" - or indeed no such thng as gnostic(ism)...There is no gnostic doctrine - no gnostic prayers or rituals - such thngs simpy do not exist - they are the INVENTION of an ENEMY by the "catholic church",who literally lumped together all manner of diverse spiritual practices,outlawed them all - outlawed everything that was not catholic actually - lumped them altogether under the heading "gnostic heretic" - and then they had "just cause" for their MILITARY campaign of domination - as they destroyed orignal spiritual truths and replaced them with man made catholic truths - thus the gnostic was manufactured to become an "evil demon spawn" enemy of the "one true faith".....It was entirely back to front - the GNOSTIC is th eone who is seeking the Divine truth - the church is with holding it and replacing it with counterfeit truths to suit its own agenda,power and domination always....
Listen Folks - CHRIST WAS A GNOSTIC - truly He was...Shun the outisde world He said - shun its preconceptions - Divinity abides WITHIN You He said - empty the mind,and dive inside to seek it out - find it,bring it forth here and now - this IS GNOSIS..!! Thats all there is to the authentic Gnostic teaching - seek the Divine Silence - for it was from this Silent void state,that the Diivine Presence first recognised its Own Nature......Gnosis - is what Christ means when He says - for those with ears to hear - for those who know how,who seek and understand the Divine Silence within,and the truth it so reveals...Gnosis..
( Yes i know some wil now point me to various "gnostic churches" or gnostic schools - established,semi institutionalised - and yet I tell you clearly - any and al such endeavours,directly prohibit the actual process of Gnosis...ALL these institutions are trying to understand truth - and yet for the most part they are greatly hindered by that catholic church who always seeks to destroy them..All their written sacred texts - destroyed by this church - all traces of truth and wisdom,eradicated....The new formng "gnostic schools" are severely handicapped in their base understanding - having vary little written testimony to go on,as the onyl sanctioned,freely available scripture is that which was sanctioned by the cathoics alone - if the gnostic was caught or even accused of holding heretcial truth,they were simply murdered and all trace o fthat wisdom destroyed - and so,"mainstream" ideas began to surface,wholly in line with enforced catholic doctrine - yet presented always as if the gnostic were an "enemy" - such that we see gnostic fables of a "demi urge" adversary to gods creation - - or the "fall of Sofia" whom the church wont even recognise as authentic - a complete misunderstanding of the things Christ said - a twisting of truth revealed about the greater realms and the Trinity,truth of our existance and destiny - twisted to be in line with accepted catholic doctrines as first the catholics insisted "their truth" was the ONLY tuth allowed and os it became the standard source of spirituual wisdom - and so the gnostic trying to make sense of it all,begins from the wrong premise entirely,off down the wrong track right from the start..
To be Gnostic - is not a specific belief - but it is way of APPROACH - by the Self and FOR the Self....A nun,sitting in cloisters devoutly praying with the Holy Ghost - IS A GNOSTIC - and look similarly - a Rishi in his cave in India,deep in mediatation and inner communion raising his vital Kundalini to attain other realities - he too IS A GNOSTIC - ...The only prerequisite,is to put away all the PRECONCEPTIONS - shunthe world out there,to seek the truth of Self,BEFORE the mind supplies these already formed definitions - encounter Who and What we are, at the absolute essence of Self - THIS IS GNOSIS...
As we can see immedialty - to follow or cling to another mans truth then - a book a doctrine or a credo or firm belief - this is all preconception - and will prohibit the essental truth from being revealed - hence there can never ever be a formalised "gnostic religion",neither could there be gnostic doctrine or scripture - there is though a UNIVERSAL TRUTH OF EXISTANCE - and that is that mind itself CREATES all reality - the gnostic fully understands this principal - and so approaches Gnosis from an empty mind,as best he may..As Christ told Thomas :
For those with ears to hear...
Hmmm....How to explain this....Gnosis - is perhaps best described as the "living truth" - the truth that is revealed by direct experience....
To that end - there can never even be a formalised,or institutionalised Gnostic(ism)....as soon as you begin to structure the process - lay down rules,regulations,doctrines,rituals - as soon as you apply any of that structuring,you have lost the essence of the endeavour itself,which is to find the LIVING truth of Self....Simply put - you cannot attain Gnosis of Self - if the mind is already full of "other peoples truths" - do you see..?...
If the mind is full of such PRECONCEPTIONS,then the truth of Self will never be revealed...To attian Gnosis - one MUST first EMPTY the self completly - literally seek and enter a void and empty silent mode within the Self...Obviously - all forms of public gathering,will fully prohibit this internal journey - mind busty and filled "out there" in the world,will most definately miss the sublte inner communion.....So most obviosuy then - absolutely no gnostic(ism) - no church or formal gatherings - no LEADERS to teach for the truth is revealed from WITHIN..This Presence is of course,The Hoily Ghost as the formalised religion would know it..
There is no such thng as a "gnostic church" - or indeed no such thng as gnostic(ism)...There is no gnostic doctrine - no gnostic prayers or rituals - such thngs simpy do not exist - they are the INVENTION of an ENEMY by the "catholic church",who literally lumped together all manner of diverse spiritual practices,outlawed them all - outlawed everything that was not catholic actually - lumped them altogether under the heading "gnostic heretic" - and then they had "just cause" for their MILITARY campaign of domination - as they destroyed orignal spiritual truths and replaced them with man made catholic truths - thus the gnostic was manufactured to become an "evil demon spawn" enemy of the "one true faith".....It was entirely back to front - the GNOSTIC is th eone who is seeking the Divine truth - the church is with holding it and replacing it with counterfeit truths to suit its own agenda,power and domination always....
Listen Folks - CHRIST WAS A GNOSTIC - truly He was...Shun the outisde world He said - shun its preconceptions - Divinity abides WITHIN You He said - empty the mind,and dive inside to seek it out - find it,bring it forth here and now - this IS GNOSIS..!! Thats all there is to the authentic Gnostic teaching - seek the Divine Silence - for it was from this Silent void state,that the Diivine Presence first recognised its Own Nature......Gnosis - is what Christ means when He says - for those with ears to hear - for those who know how,who seek and understand the Divine Silence within,and the truth it so reveals...Gnosis..
( Yes i know some wil now point me to various "gnostic churches" or gnostic schools - established,semi institutionalised - and yet I tell you clearly - any and al such endeavours,directly prohibit the actual process of Gnosis...ALL these institutions are trying to understand truth - and yet for the most part they are greatly hindered by that catholic church who always seeks to destroy them..All their written sacred texts - destroyed by this church - all traces of truth and wisdom,eradicated....The new formng "gnostic schools" are severely handicapped in their base understanding - having vary little written testimony to go on,as the onyl sanctioned,freely available scripture is that which was sanctioned by the cathoics alone - if the gnostic was caught or even accused of holding heretcial truth,they were simply murdered and all trace o fthat wisdom destroyed - and so,"mainstream" ideas began to surface,wholly in line with enforced catholic doctrine - yet presented always as if the gnostic were an "enemy" - such that we see gnostic fables of a "demi urge" adversary to gods creation - - or the "fall of Sofia" whom the church wont even recognise as authentic - a complete misunderstanding of the things Christ said - a twisting of truth revealed about the greater realms and the Trinity,truth of our existance and destiny - twisted to be in line with accepted catholic doctrines as first the catholics insisted "their truth" was the ONLY tuth allowed and os it became the standard source of spirituual wisdom - and so the gnostic trying to make sense of it all,begins from the wrong premise entirely,off down the wrong track right from the start..
To be Gnostic - is not a specific belief - but it is way of APPROACH - by the Self and FOR the Self....A nun,sitting in cloisters devoutly praying with the Holy Ghost - IS A GNOSTIC - and look similarly - a Rishi in his cave in India,deep in mediatation and inner communion raising his vital Kundalini to attain other realities - he too IS A GNOSTIC - ...The only prerequisite,is to put away all the PRECONCEPTIONS - shunthe world out there,to seek the truth of Self,BEFORE the mind supplies these already formed definitions - encounter Who and What we are, at the absolute essence of Self - THIS IS GNOSIS...
As we can see immedialty - to follow or cling to another mans truth then - a book a doctrine or a credo or firm belief - this is all preconception - and will prohibit the essental truth from being revealed - hence there can never ever be a formalised "gnostic religion",neither could there be gnostic doctrine or scripture - there is though a UNIVERSAL TRUTH OF EXISTANCE - and that is that mind itself CREATES all reality - the gnostic fully understands this principal - and so approaches Gnosis from an empty mind,as best he may..As Christ told Thomas :
For those with ears to hear...
Last edited:
allfoak
Alchemist
Everyone is a Gnostic Christian.
Some have direct experiences.
Others direct their experiences.
Some are living life.
Others are just experiencing life.
The goal is to be able to capture every thought.
Then we can choose what to focus on and create the life we want to have.
Direct experience is simply directing the thoughts and emotions that occur as we live our life.
Since everyone wants the same thing i can be more specific about the direction of focus.
We all want happiness first and foremost.
So we should focus all of our thoughts and emotions on being happy.
If we have thoughts and emotions that do not serve our pursuit of happiness then we should promptly dispose of them in whatever way necessary.
A word about diet....???
What we consume both physically and mentally will affect our ability to be happy.
A word about why we experience suffering.
Everything that happens to us is for the purpose of directing us toward what it is that we want.
Nothing ever just happens, there are many things that have to occur sometimes for one single event to manifest in our lives.
We tell this to our children.
We tell them that they must become adults before they can understand some things in life.
For us to have everything we want, sometimes we have to learn somethings first.
Some have hard lessons to learn.
There is a difference between Gnosis and Gnosticism as a religious system. The mystic uses Gnosis to understand the things of Spirit. Gnosticism however, historically was in fact wrapped in a certain dualistic set of teachings, such as the urge and demiurge, the falsity of the flesh, and so forth. Modern scholars made the mistake of lumping everything that was not the orthodoxy under the umbrella term Gnosticism, whereas in reality that was an error. The Gospel of Thomas was called a Gnostic Gospel, whereas in reality it is not. It is part of the Wisdom School traditions.
I don't think to correct this mistake it is appropriate to say everything that uses mystical approaches should be called Gnosticism, even though all mystical and Wisdom traditions use gnosis.
Mysticism, and that is what you are actually talking about, can and does exist within formalized structure. Though a gnostic experience itself transcends anything that can be taught or comprehended by the mind, such experiences do in fact have to be interpreted by the individuals who have them, and frameworks of interpretation are needed in order to take what is opened to and bring it into the world. The effect is that of transforming understanding, through transcending our ideas of them. But we don't live outside the reality of our own human existence, and thus we need interpretive frameworks.
No, not necessarily. You can have a support community that encourages and supports interior practices, and in fact they are integral to one being able to fully integrate what is opened to. Again, you have to have interpretive frameworks, but understood that these are NOT substitutes for interior work. Most take them as such, and that is an error. But if you look at Buddhism its three jewels are Buddha, Darmha, Sangha. Buddha is the gnostic, interior transcendent awareness; Darmha is the teachings the directional and interpretive frameworks; and Sangha is the support community. These three together help to form and shape the person into spiritual growth. Simply having a Satori experience without grounding, can in fact lead to a dissociation, which is not healthy. Seeking freedom from illusion is vital, but so is grounding that freedom into one's own body and mind. Though the relative is not the Absolute, we still live in the relative.
Considering there were organized groups within early Christianity such as the Valentinians which were very much teaching and practicing mystical approaches, obviously it's wrong to say that it cannot exist in an organized body. I do respect your point of view that it can and does get lost however when the structures override the pursuit of Spirit in one's life, wholly externalizing it and slamming the door on those who attempt to open it.
That's actually untrue. Traditional gnosticism is a dualistic school of thought which sees this world as false and only the spiritual as true. That's the formal sense of the word Gnostic, as opposed to how you are using it which is simply gnosis in the mystical sense.
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks..
A most interesting thread
Allfoak; That whole first post - I like that a lot..everyone is indeed a gnostic Christian - by the truth of their own experience they will come to understand that they are becoming Christ already - even unrealised the process of Self dscovery continues - they ARE part of the Father and eventually all will realise this fully..
The emphasis though - we all want happiness..?...Hmm...In a way - but hidden behind that search for happiness - search for LOVE - is indeed,a greater drive and imperative - truth of Self - and that simly is,we desire indeed,this TRUTH of Who and What we are - to be fully known and fully revealed for all to see - to inderstand Self in full an intimate manner..The drive of our existance is not happiness itself - not love itself - these are symptoms and expressions of Self - we experience them when we express our Self in accord with our living truth - our Gnosis...we find out who and what we are - it makes us happy,and we express Our Love...It wasnt these things we searched for - we just sort the truth of Self,alays - and found out inthe endeavour
that we ARE these things agetr all - ournatural condition IS love and happiness..
Do you see - some people fully understand their eternal nature - and yet allow a life of drudgery,servitude,unhapiness at the surface - and yet inside there is still the sheer bliss of the Divine mind,regarldess,becasue simply they are FREELY CHOOSING to BE the thing that they
Are..The phsical circumstances of life are irreleveant to hapiness or the ability to love - it is how we see Self inrealtion to the world out there - always - that will define the experience of happiness,love in our lives..
QUOTE]There is a difference between Gnosis and Gnosticism as a religious system. The mystic uses Gnosis to understand the things of Spirit. Gnosticism however, historically was in fact wrapped in a certain dualistic set of teachings, such as the urge and demiurge, the falsity of the flesh, and so forth. Modern scholars made the mistake of lumping everything that was not the orthodoxy under the umbrella term Gnosticism, whereas in reality that was an error. The Gospel of Thomas was called a Gnostic Gospel, whereas in reality it is not. It is part of the Wisdom School traditions. [/QUOTE]
Hmm...The first part - the Mystic uses gnosis to understand things of spirit....Yer kind of - but more like actually - the Gnosis itself,is the very thing "revealed by spirit" - do you see..?..Slightly differet emphasis,but completly new meaning..The understanding revealed by spirt,IS GNOSIS itself - anything else,is academic,secondhand knowldge - truth from another source outside of Self,and is therefore,a less authentic truth..Christ explaned it with parables of fish - throwing back the small useless ones,to keep only the biggest fish (truth) - and similar with parables of pearls - a merchnt buys many many goods (truths),and among them he finds an exquisite pearl that outshines all else - he sells the rest as not needed,but keeps this pearl for himself..He says to always seek this inner guide,fo only it can reveal truth out inthe world He says - this is the essence f true gnosis - have the truth first and foremost,then and only then can we hope to apply it to he world out there...
See then,the gnostic is only seeking after that inner truth - he will discover it first before the world lays any definition upon it - indeed,he can then take the original authentic truth so revealed,and apply it to the world out there,to see through its deceptions... But of course - if we first fail or do not seek thjis authentic truth,then all we can hope to find out there in the world,is deception,surely so - it it the Presence calle forth during the gnostic communion - the Holy Ghost as the religion terms it - this is essntial - for only IT knows such truth from such illusion...
Hmm....At the beginning - there were many and diverse sects of Christianity - and understand here - all those who now followed Christ,firmly had their roots in the judaic religion,and that Pharisee traditon...Yeshua who was Christ though,had absolutly no affiliation to that tradition or to that (demi)god yahweh of the hebrews - that god,He said was not Our Father..Thus a great calamity,civil war - faction vs faction - all claiming to know and understand "his legitimate truth" - but understand they are all based fully on that error - wrong god,lesser god of the hebrews..Now - as far as legitimate,authentic truth of Christ goes,there were only the disciples - and they themselves often struggled to understand Him...Check out for instance -gospel of Judas -and we see a share vision,of afuture religous establishemnt in Christs name..All the disciple have the same dream - this future church - except it is corrupt,evil,tainted - Christ says it is their legacy as they fail to comprehend Him..
This ignorance and failure to understand - this civil unrest as the jewish religion literally splintered into many many "belief systems" - this right here is the start of the "gnostic(ism)" that in ignorance,will ty to establish itself after the insitution they are used to - and so they try to compete aganst established sects,by establshng similar traditions -all based on the pharisee ways of course,temple,doctrine,ritual,leader and master above - all based on that which they had always known,the foundation of yahweh and the hebrew heritage....And of course,this simply means,that they are all based still - onthe same initial errors and preconceptions - the very teachings and traditons that Yeshua who is Christ had us shun and avoid most insistantly - HATE the things of the parents He saidd - and He means specifically,this whole nstitutionalised worship system..Hate it,depsise it turn away from it He said - and yet in ther ignorance,these new forming sects,go straight back to the old ways,and try to establish yet another "religon"....Ths was NEVER His ntention - GNOSIS - kingdom within - all these external sources only lead us aways He said,repeatdly..
Hmm...Again - I agree - but say the emphsis is misplaced...All of the Wisdom school - is firmly based in Gnosis - direct spiritual revelation,spirit to spirit,mind to mind...The Mystery School,as it is termed,isnot an actual schol,college or foundation- but rather,is it a means of spiritual accesss - the process itself of ATTAINING Gnosis - those who attian Gnosis,likewise have enterd the Mytery School - they go hand in glove..The mortal mind does not attend the Mystey School - but rather the eternal Soul holds that Wisdom - THROUGH the process of Gnosis,the mortal mind merges with,and so becomes one with that Higher Wisdom..Thus Thomas - is a presentation of WISDOM - but to access that wisdom fully,one must already be seeking Gnosis - this is why He said always - for those with ears to hear - for those already within the Gnostic process,inner seeking approach....
Yes,I agree here too - excpet to say again,slightly wrong emphasis..The established framework,as is,is indeed that same narrative of yahweh and his version - and simply,this is not Our Father whom Christ wil tech of - this is not the source of Creation that the Gnostic seeks...The entire framework itself,is a base error He said - indeed,this is why He had us shun that pharisee tradition,and told us emphatically we must come to "hate the parnts" before we will be ready to follow Him..Entirely wrong foundation...The gnostic(ism) we have to day,kind of understands this base error - and this is why we have the famous "demiurge" vs god narrative - the famous "world of flesh is evil" narrative - except that simply isnt the truth of it in actual reality - the world itslef and the lesser god that created it,are not inherantly evil - not by nature - excpet that isolation here within this construct,leads the mind to such acts..Sin and evil are to be found only in this world alone,this is true - but it is a perspective of Self in relation to this illusion that wil determnine its experience..Christ never makes any such judgements of good and evil - except to say this lower realm is a kind of trap for the unwarry Soul - and to warn of ocurse,that Self belief literally creates the things we directly experience...He then shows us how ot sprongthe trpa and avoid it - literally bypassing these lower realms and attaining the Father directly..
Hmm...The first part I totally agree with - but the second statement - Id say we do actually come to fully realise,that yes indeed,we do exist "outside of human existance" - if I may say - I stopped seeing my Self as "just human" a great many years ago now - and have had a firm,absolute core identity that indeed,Iam eternal Soul,right here right now Iam eternal Soul - just for now,having an experience AS a human being,but this experience is never allowed to define my eternal perspective of Self - thus I fully realise even within life - moment to moment - Who and What Iam...As my mate Christ said - I and the Father are ONE - now BECOME ME - or as we both referance Thomas,then as Christ said to him directly
I do appreciate your position here - can s ee where you are cming from,as they say - but it seems to me - that in some ways - the religion aspect - the formalised "ism" of it all - is a bit like putting the cart before the horse - in that first,we must empty the Self comletly - in order to receive this Presence - this "holy ghost" as it is termed - to literallybegin this merging process,as mortal mind here and now,becmes the Divine Mind of Christ,thus freeing the Self fromthe lower realms,and attsining Our Fathers Kingdom..Without that Presence,such an endeavour is pointless to even begin - and indeed,to start the process in earnest we MUST give back all those preconceptions,empty the Self right back into that original state of Divine Silence - at least at first,ths is essential..
I guess what Im really saying then,is that we simply cannot approach it like a formalised religion does - you know - one leads,others follow - all we will get is that "leaders" truth - the blind lead the blind as He warned - those with ears to hear...
A most interesting thread
Allfoak; That whole first post - I like that a lot..everyone is indeed a gnostic Christian - by the truth of their own experience they will come to understand that they are becoming Christ already - even unrealised the process of Self dscovery continues - they ARE part of the Father and eventually all will realise this fully..
The emphasis though - we all want happiness..?...Hmm...In a way - but hidden behind that search for happiness - search for LOVE - is indeed,a greater drive and imperative - truth of Self - and that simly is,we desire indeed,this TRUTH of Who and What we are - to be fully known and fully revealed for all to see - to inderstand Self in full an intimate manner..The drive of our existance is not happiness itself - not love itself - these are symptoms and expressions of Self - we experience them when we express our Self in accord with our living truth - our Gnosis...we find out who and what we are - it makes us happy,and we express Our Love...It wasnt these things we searched for - we just sort the truth of Self,alays - and found out inthe endeavour
that we ARE these things agetr all - ournatural condition IS love and happiness..
Do you see - some people fully understand their eternal nature - and yet allow a life of drudgery,servitude,unhapiness at the surface - and yet inside there is still the sheer bliss of the Divine mind,regarldess,becasue simply they are FREELY CHOOSING to BE the thing that they
Are..The phsical circumstances of life are irreleveant to hapiness or the ability to love - it is how we see Self inrealtion to the world out there - always - that will define the experience of happiness,love in our lives..
QUOTE]There is a difference between Gnosis and Gnosticism as a religious system. The mystic uses Gnosis to understand the things of Spirit. Gnosticism however, historically was in fact wrapped in a certain dualistic set of teachings, such as the urge and demiurge, the falsity of the flesh, and so forth. Modern scholars made the mistake of lumping everything that was not the orthodoxy under the umbrella term Gnosticism, whereas in reality that was an error. The Gospel of Thomas was called a Gnostic Gospel, whereas in reality it is not. It is part of the Wisdom School traditions. [/QUOTE]
Hmm...The first part - the Mystic uses gnosis to understand things of spirit....Yer kind of - but more like actually - the Gnosis itself,is the very thing "revealed by spirit" - do you see..?..Slightly differet emphasis,but completly new meaning..The understanding revealed by spirt,IS GNOSIS itself - anything else,is academic,secondhand knowldge - truth from another source outside of Self,and is therefore,a less authentic truth..Christ explaned it with parables of fish - throwing back the small useless ones,to keep only the biggest fish (truth) - and similar with parables of pearls - a merchnt buys many many goods (truths),and among them he finds an exquisite pearl that outshines all else - he sells the rest as not needed,but keeps this pearl for himself..He says to always seek this inner guide,fo only it can reveal truth out inthe world He says - this is the essence f true gnosis - have the truth first and foremost,then and only then can we hope to apply it to he world out there...
See then,the gnostic is only seeking after that inner truth - he will discover it first before the world lays any definition upon it - indeed,he can then take the original authentic truth so revealed,and apply it to the world out there,to see through its deceptions... But of course - if we first fail or do not seek thjis authentic truth,then all we can hope to find out there in the world,is deception,surely so - it it the Presence calle forth during the gnostic communion - the Holy Ghost as the religion terms it - this is essntial - for only IT knows such truth from such illusion...
Hmm....At the beginning - there were many and diverse sects of Christianity - and understand here - all those who now followed Christ,firmly had their roots in the judaic religion,and that Pharisee traditon...Yeshua who was Christ though,had absolutly no affiliation to that tradition or to that (demi)god yahweh of the hebrews - that god,He said was not Our Father..Thus a great calamity,civil war - faction vs faction - all claiming to know and understand "his legitimate truth" - but understand they are all based fully on that error - wrong god,lesser god of the hebrews..Now - as far as legitimate,authentic truth of Christ goes,there were only the disciples - and they themselves often struggled to understand Him...Check out for instance -gospel of Judas -and we see a share vision,of afuture religous establishemnt in Christs name..All the disciple have the same dream - this future church - except it is corrupt,evil,tainted - Christ says it is their legacy as they fail to comprehend Him..
This ignorance and failure to understand - this civil unrest as the jewish religion literally splintered into many many "belief systems" - this right here is the start of the "gnostic(ism)" that in ignorance,will ty to establish itself after the insitution they are used to - and so they try to compete aganst established sects,by establshng similar traditions -all based on the pharisee ways of course,temple,doctrine,ritual,leader and master above - all based on that which they had always known,the foundation of yahweh and the hebrew heritage....And of course,this simply means,that they are all based still - onthe same initial errors and preconceptions - the very teachings and traditons that Yeshua who is Christ had us shun and avoid most insistantly - HATE the things of the parents He saidd - and He means specifically,this whole nstitutionalised worship system..Hate it,depsise it turn away from it He said - and yet in ther ignorance,these new forming sects,go straight back to the old ways,and try to establish yet another "religon"....Ths was NEVER His ntention - GNOSIS - kingdom within - all these external sources only lead us aways He said,repeatdly..
Hmm...Again - I agree - but say the emphsis is misplaced...All of the Wisdom school - is firmly based in Gnosis - direct spiritual revelation,spirit to spirit,mind to mind...The Mystery School,as it is termed,isnot an actual schol,college or foundation- but rather,is it a means of spiritual accesss - the process itself of ATTAINING Gnosis - those who attian Gnosis,likewise have enterd the Mytery School - they go hand in glove..The mortal mind does not attend the Mystey School - but rather the eternal Soul holds that Wisdom - THROUGH the process of Gnosis,the mortal mind merges with,and so becomes one with that Higher Wisdom..Thus Thomas - is a presentation of WISDOM - but to access that wisdom fully,one must already be seeking Gnosis - this is why He said always - for those with ears to hear - for those already within the Gnostic process,inner seeking approach....
Yes,I agree here too - excpet to say again,slightly wrong emphasis..The established framework,as is,is indeed that same narrative of yahweh and his version - and simply,this is not Our Father whom Christ wil tech of - this is not the source of Creation that the Gnostic seeks...The entire framework itself,is a base error He said - indeed,this is why He had us shun that pharisee tradition,and told us emphatically we must come to "hate the parnts" before we will be ready to follow Him..Entirely wrong foundation...The gnostic(ism) we have to day,kind of understands this base error - and this is why we have the famous "demiurge" vs god narrative - the famous "world of flesh is evil" narrative - except that simply isnt the truth of it in actual reality - the world itslef and the lesser god that created it,are not inherantly evil - not by nature - excpet that isolation here within this construct,leads the mind to such acts..Sin and evil are to be found only in this world alone,this is true - but it is a perspective of Self in relation to this illusion that wil determnine its experience..Christ never makes any such judgements of good and evil - except to say this lower realm is a kind of trap for the unwarry Soul - and to warn of ocurse,that Self belief literally creates the things we directly experience...He then shows us how ot sprongthe trpa and avoid it - literally bypassing these lower realms and attaining the Father directly..
Hmm...The first part I totally agree with - but the second statement - Id say we do actually come to fully realise,that yes indeed,we do exist "outside of human existance" - if I may say - I stopped seeing my Self as "just human" a great many years ago now - and have had a firm,absolute core identity that indeed,Iam eternal Soul,right here right now Iam eternal Soul - just for now,having an experience AS a human being,but this experience is never allowed to define my eternal perspective of Self - thus I fully realise even within life - moment to moment - Who and What Iam...As my mate Christ said - I and the Father are ONE - now BECOME ME - or as we both referance Thomas,then as Christ said to him directly
I do appreciate your position here - can s ee where you are cming from,as they say - but it seems to me - that in some ways - the religion aspect - the formalised "ism" of it all - is a bit like putting the cart before the horse - in that first,we must empty the Self comletly - in order to receive this Presence - this "holy ghost" as it is termed - to literallybegin this merging process,as mortal mind here and now,becmes the Divine Mind of Christ,thus freeing the Self fromthe lower realms,and attsining Our Fathers Kingdom..Without that Presence,such an endeavour is pointless to even begin - and indeed,to start the process in earnest we MUST give back all those preconceptions,empty the Self right back into that original state of Divine Silence - at least at first,ths is essential..
I guess what Im really saying then,is that we simply cannot approach it like a formalised religion does - you know - one leads,others follow - all we will get is that "leaders" truth - the blind lead the blind as He warned - those with ears to hear...
Last edited:
Yeah, Satan, who has poisoned the minds and hearts of humanity, filling us with greed, hatred and arrogance that leads us to making this realm into a hellish experience. He is the closest thing to a demiurge in my belief, although he is not the true Creator. He is a counterfeit, weaving illusions and perversions.
I believe in them as-is.
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks..
Jeager; Well - if Gnosis relates to knowledge,especially esoteric or mystical knowldge - and if the parameter is a "christian" gnostic - then surely the only answer is to say a true Gnostic Christian,is one who listens to only Christ,and takes his wisdom and knowldege directly from that source and that source alone...
The manner in which this authentic wisdom is delivered is indeed,absolutely esoteric,hidden - absolutely Mystical as it pertains only to the individual seeker,revealed to them alone in the ordained manner by Christ Himself....Blesed are the SOLITARY elect,for THEY will find the kingdom He said - they are from it and they will return there...Seek always the NARROW path He said - find the narrow gate that elads to this inner comunion - this leads to LIFE He said - as opposed to the countless many who take the WIDE path - the religon public way - this leads to DEATH HE said...
In short - He instructs the true Christian,to BECOME Gnostic - to search for the tuth of Divinity WITHIN the Self - to find and call forth a "Presence" there,found inthe divine Silence that is the core of our mortal Being...Find this Presence He said - the Holy Ghost as is became known - follow it and only it He said,for only it can discern truth from illusion..The Gnostic seeks THIS PRESENCE ALWAYS - and knows it cannot be invoked in an authentic manner,if the mind is full of preconceptions of truth - hence Yeshua who is Christ,emphatically taught us to avoid any and all public religons and temple "worship"....He said it was all USELESS - no more "babbling like pagans" He said - no ore useless many worded,repeated prayers - no begging - no supplication - no endless bowing down and fawning.....STOP it all He said - it is a hinderance to be avoided...Indeed -He replace dit all - with a single solitary prayer "Our Father" - and told us this was all we needed to utter - and He said when we seek this communion - go no to a temple or a priest - but rather go ALONE into a room and shut the door behind you - close out the world entirely...Seek within He said - find the Silence of the mind - a void empty state - HERE He said,this Presence wil reveal itself to you,just as it first stepped forth from the silence when Creation began...
The Gnostic is seeking to take THIS mortal mind - and to literally merge it - become One - with THAT Primal Divne Mind that causes All....Yeshua who is Christ,gave us a very easy method to achieve this for ourselves - come to me my yoke is exceedongly light He said,and it is - no doctrines,no dogmas,no rituals,now begging or pleading and ALL are "qorthy" if they seek in earnest - no hopeless lost "sinner" - but it involves first,giving up all those preconceptions taught by the world out there and its "leaders" - empty the Self right back into this original void and silent conditon - then see what is truth revealed....
We must come to HATE THE PARENTS He said - and indeed, when we look honestly at the things He said,side by side - we see clearly,He is leading us away from the temple public worship - fully so - insistantly so - and replacing it with a form of deep and personal meditation,that does ACTUALLY bare results that we can each witness for our Self directly...The gnostics "temple" is his own interior mind...The Holy of Holies - the covering veil - is a definate barrier WITHIN the mind - a threshold where surface dynamic mind here,crossses into tranquil Dvine Silence..Find that place,thenarrow gate,push through that veil,open that narow Gate within and claim your truth,claim your eternal nature...THIS IS GNOSIS>....
Jeager; Well - if Gnosis relates to knowledge,especially esoteric or mystical knowldge - and if the parameter is a "christian" gnostic - then surely the only answer is to say a true Gnostic Christian,is one who listens to only Christ,and takes his wisdom and knowldege directly from that source and that source alone...
The manner in which this authentic wisdom is delivered is indeed,absolutely esoteric,hidden - absolutely Mystical as it pertains only to the individual seeker,revealed to them alone in the ordained manner by Christ Himself....Blesed are the SOLITARY elect,for THEY will find the kingdom He said - they are from it and they will return there...Seek always the NARROW path He said - find the narrow gate that elads to this inner comunion - this leads to LIFE He said - as opposed to the countless many who take the WIDE path - the religon public way - this leads to DEATH HE said...
In short - He instructs the true Christian,to BECOME Gnostic - to search for the tuth of Divinity WITHIN the Self - to find and call forth a "Presence" there,found inthe divine Silence that is the core of our mortal Being...Find this Presence He said - the Holy Ghost as is became known - follow it and only it He said,for only it can discern truth from illusion..The Gnostic seeks THIS PRESENCE ALWAYS - and knows it cannot be invoked in an authentic manner,if the mind is full of preconceptions of truth - hence Yeshua who is Christ,emphatically taught us to avoid any and all public religons and temple "worship"....He said it was all USELESS - no more "babbling like pagans" He said - no ore useless many worded,repeated prayers - no begging - no supplication - no endless bowing down and fawning.....STOP it all He said - it is a hinderance to be avoided...Indeed -He replace dit all - with a single solitary prayer "Our Father" - and told us this was all we needed to utter - and He said when we seek this communion - go no to a temple or a priest - but rather go ALONE into a room and shut the door behind you - close out the world entirely...Seek within He said - find the Silence of the mind - a void empty state - HERE He said,this Presence wil reveal itself to you,just as it first stepped forth from the silence when Creation began...
The Gnostic is seeking to take THIS mortal mind - and to literally merge it - become One - with THAT Primal Divne Mind that causes All....Yeshua who is Christ,gave us a very easy method to achieve this for ourselves - come to me my yoke is exceedongly light He said,and it is - no doctrines,no dogmas,no rituals,now begging or pleading and ALL are "qorthy" if they seek in earnest - no hopeless lost "sinner" - but it involves first,giving up all those preconceptions taught by the world out there and its "leaders" - empty the Self right back into this original void and silent conditon - then see what is truth revealed....
We must come to HATE THE PARENTS He said - and indeed, when we look honestly at the things He said,side by side - we see clearly,He is leading us away from the temple public worship - fully so - insistantly so - and replacing it with a form of deep and personal meditation,that does ACTUALLY bare results that we can each witness for our Self directly...The gnostics "temple" is his own interior mind...The Holy of Holies - the covering veil - is a definate barrier WITHIN the mind - a threshold where surface dynamic mind here,crossses into tranquil Dvine Silence..Find that place,thenarrow gate,push through that veil,open that narow Gate within and claim your truth,claim your eternal nature...THIS IS GNOSIS>....
Last edited:
Hidden Human
Christ is before my eyes always I in Him, He in me
Hi everyone. I was reading Peter C's posts and found myself thinking of a friend of mine, "Frangipani" who like myself agree with his comments. Frangipani it appears has been banned or suspended from the forum and without any explanation according to her. Like your post on suicide and all others when I read them I said, 'Yes, yes. yes' as did my friend. When you say you saw angels, I too have seen these things and I was wondering if you can describe what it is you saw with your minds eye.
Jumi
Well-Known Member
Interesting post, thanks for writing it.
I think a better way to describe what you are trying to say is illumination. Yes, technically the word gnosis means knowledge and one could say that what one realizes in mystical experience is gnosis, but I would say in the mystical sense gnosis is more the type of knowing itself and how one receives it through the eyes of contemplation. Let me explain by quoting from Ken Wilber's fantastic book on the various types of knowing, or epistemologies. In his book Eye to Eye he explains the differences between the eye of flesh, the eye of mind, and the eye of contemplation.
The eye of contemplation is to the eye of reason as the eye of reason is to the eye of flesh. Just as reason transcends flesh, so contemplation transcends reason. Just as reason cannot be reduced to, nor derived solely from, fleshy knowledge, so contemplation cannot be reduced nor derived from reason. Where the eye of reason is transempirical, the eye of contemplation is transrational, translogical, and transmental. "Gnosis [the eye of contemplation, the lumen superius] transcends the mental realm and a fortiori the realm of the sentiments [the sensory realm]. This transcendence results from the 'supernaturally natural' function of [gnosis], namely the contemplation of the Immutable, of the Self which is Reality, Consciousness, and Bliss. The quest of philosophers, therefore, has nothing in common with that of contemplatives, since its basic principle of exhaustive verbal adequacy is opposed to any liberating finality, to any transcending of the sphere of words."
He later in the book explains the different types of knowing, where the eye of flesh understanding flesh is sensory knowledge. The eye of mind understanding flesh (or the material world) is empiric-analytic knowledge. The eye of mind understanding mind is hermeneutic knowledge. The eye of mind understanding spirit is soteriological or mandelic knowledge. The eye of spirit understanding spirit is gnostic, or spirit to spirit knowing.
So in a sense you are right about "revealed by spirit", but it is what is recieving it and what is looking that makes it gnostic or not. If it is the mind considering or pondering or thinking about the things of spirit, that is not gnosis. Gnosis is a Spirit to Spirit knowing. Hence gnosis is a type of knowing, not the actual knowledge itself. It would be a type of knowledge.
Not necessarily as I explained above in the 5 basic types of knowing. There is certainly nothing inauthentic about sensory knowledge. There is nothing inauthentic about empiric-analytic knowledge, nor hermeneutic, nor mandelic knowledge. Gnosis is not the end all be all form of knowledge. It's not going to tell you about the laws of physics bypassing doing science, although I think some mistakenly imagine so. That would not be mystical awareness, it's magical thinking.
What we can, and should say, is that all these types of knowing, including gnosis, are partial perceptions. It's when they are taken as a whole, which includes spirit to spirit knowledge or gnosis, that we have a greater holistic understanding.Well, be careful here. I don't think understanding "lesser knowledge" as useless is a healthy approach, nor do I believe that is what Jesus meant or intended to be the takeaway. Indeed yes, "seek first the kingdom of God", or "make clean the inside of the cup first", but this does not mean the world or the things in it are "useless". Indeed they are quite useful, and necessary. What the message of seek first the kingdom is meant to say is that if our inner person is weak then looking to find it outside ourselves in things will not result it it be filled. Don't fixate on the things of the world to offer interior or soul-sustenance. If you are internally aware, then how you function in the world we be greatly enhances and made more useful. The spiritual opens one to a life more abundant, but living that live more abundant takes place in the world.
In a sense we are saying the same thing, but I feel with a different understanding. Something I think you may be failing to understand here is that even though we may have spirit to spirit knowing, or a gnostic experience, what is opened to in this, what is "revealed", what is exposed, what Truth shines through, does in fact have to be then, after the fact, interpreted by the thinking mind. At this point, this Spiritual Knowledge, no longer is gnostic, but soteriological, or mandelic knowledge. Do you follow this? I'll try to explain better.
Where we are at in our other types of knowledge, where we are at developmentally, all change the filters we use to interpret the world with, in all these different types of knowing. If you are unaware of a scientific awareness of the natural world, or unaware of psychology, or modern understandings of literature, art, the humanities, and so forth, how you interpret a transcendent experience will be done in these current frameworks you are using to interpret experience through. An experience of the Absolute at a mythological level of framework, will be take as confirmation that one's tribal God is the true God. The understanding ifs therefore relative, not absolute. So the "gnostic" awareness, is NOT Absolute. Even if you have this, it does not mean how you understand it is Absolute, Authoritative, nor Binding truth. That is just not the case. The minute you think about it, it's no longer gnostic.
Is the experience itself of the Absolute? Yes. Is how we interpret it, the forms it takes in our minds after the fact and what we have to say about it absolute? No. It does however provide a powerful degree of insight and illumination that takes how we understand the world and cast into entirely new light! No doubt about that.
What is understood through these expeirence is not the world is deception or an illusion itself, but that how we viewed that world with our minds as the reality of the world itself was an illusion. It's not that a rock doesn't exist, but how we understood it was misleading in that we did not see the Ultimate Reality, but rather separation, isolation, and fallenness. Our minds create the illusion, and illuminating the mind removes that veil. It's really no more complex than that. It's the same world, just understood with the illumined mind instead of the darkened imagination. The only thing that changes is our perception.
I'll pick up more response later as time permits.
Last edited: