Gnostic Storytelling in the Canonical Sayings of Jesus

[sean_the_iconoclast]

There seems some similarity between Jesus's kingdom of god and gnosis as aquaintance with god, but is there any indication of gnostic storytelling in his canonical sayings?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

There seems some similarity between Jesus's kingdom of god and gnosis as aquaintance with god, but is there any indication of gnostic storytelling in his canonical sayings?

That depends on what you mean by "Gnostic" and "sayings." Many people think that the Gospel of John is a repudiation of the Gospel of Thomas, so there are anti-Gnostic sayings, but 'sayings' and 'story-telling' are mutually exclusive. A 'saying' is story-free by default like "love your neighbor" and etc.

 

[sean_the_iconoclast]

Sorry Angellous, I should have been more specific. By "sayings" I'm just referring to anything Jesus himself said. I don't mean it as a genre. I would consider parables to be stories. I guess to be more specific I'm asking, are there symbolic similarities between gnostic writings and things Jesus personally said, as recorded in the canon. By "symbolic similarities", I mean is what's represented similar, not are the symbols themselves the same. Basically, did the gnostics grasp the core of Jesus's teaching or not?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Sorry Angellous, I should have been more specific. By "sayings" I'm just referring to anything Jesus himself said. I don't mean it as a genre. I would consider parables to be stories. I guess to be more specific I'm asking, are there symbolic similarities between gnostic writings and things Jesus personally said, as recorded in the canon. By "symbolic similarities", I mean is what's represented similar, not are the symbols themselves the same. Basically, did the gnostics grasp the core of Jesus's teaching or not?

I think that the Gospel of Thomas is proof that they did.

 

[sean_the_iconoclast]

Fair enough, what about more mythological gnostic texts? Do you see them making the same point concerning aquaintance as the canonical gospels and Thomas?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Fair enough, what about more mythological gnostic texts? Do you see them making the same point concerning aquaintance as the canonical gospels and Thomas?

Gnostic mythology is a whole different animal from the canon.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/gnosticism/50727-some-angellousian-thoughts-gnosticism.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/christianity/48979-ive-changed-my-mind-about-gnosticism.html

 

[EtuMalku]

Gnostics have claimed Paul as their Apostle
The communities to which Paul wrote his letters to were known to be centers of Marcionite Gnosticism
Paul's anti-Gnostic letters are now known to be fakes
Paul was born in Tarsus, a major center for Pagan Mysteries, he also uses the term 'Mysteries' in his letters.
Paul calls himself "Steward of the Mysteries of God" which is a term for a priest in the Pagan Mysteries of Serapis.
Gnostics claim Paul's letters contain encoded secret teachings as he even states there are "two ways at once" to teach the Gospel of Christ (Outer and Inner Mysteries) which he understood as the difference between a historical literal translation of Jesus and the mystical revelation of revealing the "Christ in you"

 

[sean_the_iconoclast]

Hi EtuMalku. Would you mind giving the references for your assertions above? It would be much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[EtuMalku]

Much of it comes from my little bean but this info can be found in the Gnostic Gospels of Nag Hammadi. When I get home I will post detailed references to research.

 

[EtuMalku]

I'm sorry Sean, I said a lot above. Perhaps you could narrow it down to what you would like referenced, all of it is too much for me to go looking up right now.

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

Gnostics have claimed Paul as their Apostle
The communities to which Paul wrote his letters to were known to be centers of Marcionite Gnosticism
Paul's anti-Gnostic letters are now known to be fakes
Paul was born in Tarsus, a major center for Pagan Mysteries, he also uses the term 'Mysteries' in his letters.
Paul calls himself "Steward of the Mysteries of God" which is a term for a priest in the Pagan Mysteries of Serapis.
Gnostics claim Paul's letters contain encoded secret teachings as he even states there are "two ways at once" to teach the Gospel of Christ (Outer and Inner Mysteries) which he understood as the difference between a historical literal translation of Jesus and the mystical revelation of revealing the "Christ in you"

Some pseudo-gnostics certainly claimed Paul/Saul as one of their mentors, but I doubt that any genuine (Spiritual) gnostic (i.e. actual first-hand 'KNOWER' of Elohim) would have followed any deceased Teacher (especially the false apostle Paul).

There is a very enlightening discussion on Paul/Saul here (CLICK HERE).

Peace to all

 

[sean_the_iconoclast]

Etu Malku, references for the following would be sufficient: "The communities to which Paul wrote his letters to were known to be centers of Marcionite Gnosticism" and the statement that Tarsus was a center of the Mysteries. Regarding the latter, could you please indicate the time period as well? Thanks.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Etu Malku, references for the following would be sufficient: "The communities to which Paul wrote his letters to were known to be centers of Marcionite Gnosticism" and the statement that Tarsus was a center of the Mysteries. Regarding the latter, could you please indicate the time period as well? Thanks.

It's a rare thing for me to talk about something that I know nothing about.

 

[EtuMalku]

AE: it is a rarer thing for me to talk about something that I actually do know about LOL!!

Sean: "The communities to which Paul wrote his letters to were known to be centers of Marcionite Gnosticism"

Of course you know who Paul is, Marcion was a Gnostic teacher born in Pontus in Asia Minor, active in Rome c.144 CE. He rejected the OT and parts of the the gospels that he regarded as false. He acknowledged Paul as the "Great Apostle"

Pauls letters to Timothy and Titus are universally regarded as fakes. Computer studies confirm that the author of the Pastorals is noit then auther of the letters to the Galatians, Romans, and Corinthians.

Tarsus was a center of the Mysteries. Regarding the latter, could you please indicate the time period
48 -53 CE.

Sorry I took so long

 

[Halcyon]

Of course you know who Paul is, Marcion was a Gnostic teacher born in Pontus in Asia Minor, active in Rome c.144 CE. He rejected the OT and parts of the the gospels that he regarded as false. He acknowledged Paul as the "Great Apostle"

I'm afraid Marcion wasn't a Gnostic, he had quite a different cosmology to the Valentinians and other Gnostic sects.

 

[EtuMalku]

That's odd, seeing that 'Paul wrote letters to seven cities, which are known to have been centers of Gnostic Christianity during the 2nd century. These communities were led by the Gnostic sage Marcion . . . . '

Justin Martyr, a literalist; Marcion, an uncompromising Gnostic . . .

The influential Gnostic teacher Marcion argued for . . . . He produced a text called Antitheses, which juxtaposed quotes from the Old & New Testaments to demonstrate how they contradict each other.

from 'The Gnostic Paul' by Elaine Pagels (Professor of Religion at Columbia, Harvard and Princeton)

 

[Halcyon]

That's odd, seeing that 'Paul wrote letters to seven cities, which are known to have been centers of Gnostic Christianity during the 2nd century. These communities were led by the Gnostic sage Marcion . . . . '

Justin Martyr, a literalist; Marcion, an uncompromising Gnostic . . .

The influential Gnostic teacher Marcion argued for . . . . He produced a text called Antitheses, which juxtaposed quotes from the Old & New Testaments to demonstrate how they contradict each other.

from 'The Gnostic Paul' by Elaine Pagels (Professor of Religion at Columbia, Harvard and Princeton)

Marcion wasn't a Gnostic, I don't know what Pagels is talking about here. Sure he rejected the OT, but none of his other beliefs matched up to identifiably Gnostic groups, for a start he never speaks of Gnosis.

 

[EtuMalku]

Marcion wasn't a Gnostic, I don't know what Pagels is talking about here. Sure he rejected the OT, but none of his other beliefs matched up to identifiably Gnostic groups, for a start he never speaks of Gnosis.

What is your definition of a Gnostic, maybe this is where we differ with one another?

 

[Halcyon]

What is your definition of a Gnostic, maybe this is where we differ with one another?

It would be simpler for you to tell me why you think he was a Gnostic and then let me counter.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Marcion wasn't a Gnostic, I don't know what Pagels is talking about here. Sure he rejected the OT, but none of his other beliefs matched up to identifiably Gnostic groups, for a start he never speaks of Gnosis.

Marcion is commonly held as a Gnostic because he believed that the OT God was evil and the father of Christ was a good God, and also he believed that the body was evil.

This would fit some Gnostic sects, particularly the ones described by the church fathers. Of course, the church fathers don't describe the Gnostic sects as they represent themselves. If we think that Marcion is a Gnostic, he would be classified as a "Marcionite Gnostic."

note:
Harnak doesn't consider Marcion a Gnostic - Adolf Von Harnack

Then we have this:
Mead

The longest criticism of Marcion's views is to be found in Tertullian's invective Against Marcion, written in 207 and the following years. This has always been regarded by the orthodox as a most brilliant piece of work; but by the light of the conclusions arrived at by the industry of modern criticism, and also to ordinary common sense, it appears but a sorry piece of angry rhetoric. Tertullian tries to show that Marcion taught two Gods, the Just and the Good. Marcion, however, taught that the idea of the Jews about God, as set forth in the Old Testament, was inferior and antagonistic to the ideal of the Good God revealed by the Christ. This he set forth in the usual Gnostic fashion. But we can hardly expect a dispassionate treatment of a grave problem, which has only in the last few years reached a satisfactory solution in Christendom, from the violent Tertullian, whose temper may be gleaned from his angry address to the Marcionites: "Now then, ye dogs, whom the apostle puts outside, and who yelp at the God of truth, let us come to your various questions! These are the bones of contention, which ye are perpetually gnawing !"