sean_the_iconoclast
Gnovice
There seems some similarity between Jesus's kingdom of god and gnosis as aquaintance with god, but is there any indication of gnostic storytelling in his canonical sayings?
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There seems some similarity between Jesus's kingdom of god and gnosis as aquaintance with god, but is there any indication of gnostic storytelling in his canonical sayings?
Sorry Angellous, I should have been more specific. By "sayings" I'm just referring to anything Jesus himself said. I don't mean it as a genre. I would consider parables to be stories. I guess to be more specific I'm asking, are there symbolic similarities between gnostic writings and things Jesus personally said, as recorded in the canon. By "symbolic similarities", I mean is what's represented similar, not are the symbols themselves the same. Basically, did the gnostics grasp the core of Jesus's teaching or not?
Fair enough, what about more mythological gnostic texts? Do you see them making the same point concerning aquaintance as the canonical gospels and Thomas?
Gnostics have claimed Paul as their Apostle
The communities to which Paul wrote his letters to were known to be centers of Marcionite Gnosticism
Paul's anti-Gnostic letters are now known to be fakes
Paul was born in Tarsus, a major center for Pagan Mysteries, he also uses the term 'Mysteries' in his letters.
Paul calls himself "Steward of the Mysteries of God" which is a term for a priest in the Pagan Mysteries of Serapis.
Gnostics claim Paul's letters contain encoded secret teachings as he even states there are "two ways at once" to teach the Gospel of Christ (Outer and Inner Mysteries) which he understood as the difference between a historical literal translation of Jesus and the mystical revelation of revealing the "Christ in you"
Etu Malku, references for the following would be sufficient: "The communities to which Paul wrote his letters to were known to be centers of Marcionite Gnosticism" and the statement that Tarsus was a center of the Mysteries. Regarding the latter, could you please indicate the time period as well? Thanks.
I'm afraid Marcion wasn't a Gnostic, he had quite a different cosmology to the Valentinians and other Gnostic sects.Of course you know who Paul is, Marcion was a Gnostic teacher born in Pontus in Asia Minor, active in Rome c.144 CE. He rejected the OT and parts of the the gospels that he regarded as false. He acknowledged Paul as the "Great Apostle"
Marcion wasn't a Gnostic, I don't know what Pagels is talking about here. Sure he rejected the OT, but none of his other beliefs matched up to identifiably Gnostic groups, for a start he never speaks of Gnosis.That's odd, seeing that 'Paul wrote letters to seven cities, which are known to have been centers of Gnostic Christianity during the 2nd century. These communities were led by the Gnostic sage Marcion . . . . '
Justin Martyr, a literalist; Marcion, an uncompromising Gnostic . . .
The influential Gnostic teacher Marcion argued for . . . . He produced a text called Antitheses, which juxtaposed quotes from the Old & New Testaments to demonstrate how they contradict each other.
from 'The Gnostic Paul' by Elaine Pagels (Professor of Religion at Columbia, Harvard and Princeton)
What is your definition of a Gnostic, maybe this is where we differ with one another?Marcion wasn't a Gnostic, I don't know what Pagels is talking about here. Sure he rejected the OT, but none of his other beliefs matched up to identifiably Gnostic groups, for a start he never speaks of Gnosis.
It would be simpler for you to tell me why you think he was a Gnostic and then let me counter.What is your definition of a Gnostic, maybe this is where we differ with one another?
Marcion wasn't a Gnostic, I don't know what Pagels is talking about here. Sure he rejected the OT, but none of his other beliefs matched up to identifiably Gnostic groups, for a start he never speaks of Gnosis.
The longest criticism of Marcion's views is to be found in Tertullian's invective Against Marcion, written in 207 and the following years. This has always been regarded by the orthodox as a most brilliant piece of work; but by the light of the conclusions arrived at by the industry of modern criticism, and also to ordinary common sense, it appears but a sorry piece of angry rhetoric. Tertullian tries to show that Marcion taught two Gods, the Just and the Good. Marcion, however, taught that the idea of the Jews about God, as set forth in the Old Testament, was inferior and antagonistic to the ideal of the Good God revealed by the Christ. This he set forth in the usual Gnostic fashion. But we can hardly expect a dispassionate treatment of a grave problem, which has only in the last few years reached a satisfactory solution in Christendom, from the violent Tertullian, whose temper may be gleaned from his angry address to the Marcionites: "Now then, ye dogs, whom the apostle puts outside, and who yelp at the God of truth, let us come to your various questions! These are the bones of contention, which ye are perpetually gnawing !"