God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

I already explained to you why it's unreasonable and I also provided you with an alternative that would convince even a skeptic like me.

You handwaved it away.

I never saw you offer an alternative that would convince you that I hand-waved away.

 

[Trailblazer]

My material nature is noble. It's my spiritual nature that wants more.

 

[Jos]

First off I wanna preface this post by saying that I apologize for calling you the "epitome of arrogance", I took things a bit too far by calling you that so I'm sorry for saying that.

To my knowledge it is only Christianity that describes God as a person. Baha’is believe God is a personal God, but that does not ne mean God is a person. I know of no Baha’is who claim to have had direct contact with God. That goes against everything we believe about God.

No it isn't the only one to do that, don't Judaism and Hinduism also describe God as a person? At the very least He comes across a person in the scriptures.

Logically speaking, an All-Knowing God knows more than you do about the best Method of communication.

God does not want to communicate directly to humans, what about that do you NOT understand, and an omnipotent God only does what He wants to do.

You really don’t get it do you, YOU want God to communicate directly to humans, but obviously God does not want to, and that is one reason among many that he doesn’t.

You and others like you think you know more than an All-Knowing and All-Wise God about how He should communicate to humans. This is the epitome of arrogance.

These are all based on the assumption that God is all powerful and wise, which is again something that you can't demonstrate other than through hearsay.

No, I do not think “I” am right and everyone else is wrong. I have certitude of my beliefs.

Well if you have certitude in your beliefs then how can you say that you don't think you are right? Certitude means you have absolute knowledge which means you can't be wrong.

 

[Jos]

God communicated with them through the Holy Spirit and that is as direct as it gets.
I do not understand exactly how they received communication from God as that is beyond my ability to understand, so I simply accept what I cannot understand, and besides that, I have no need to know.

Why I trust Baha'u'llah is not something anyone can understand unless they are a Baha'i.

OK well I already explained why I don't think that's reasonable that, so I'll leave this talking point alone.

 

[Trailblazer]

First off I wanna preface this post by saying that I apologize for calling you the "epitome of arrogance", I took things a bit too far by calling you that so I'm sorry for saying that.

Apology accepted.

No it isn't the only one to do that, don't Judaism and Hinduism also describe God as a person? At the very least He comes across a person in the scriptures.

I believe that the older scriptures are anthropomorphic and that is why God comes across as a person. Those scriptures are ancient, so perhaps that was the only way that people could relate to God in ancient times, but we no longer live in ancient times so the modern man can conceptualize God as an unknowable Being.

Moreover, none of those scriptures were written by a Messenger of God, so they are far removed from what was originally revealed by God. That is my way of saying I do not believe that those scriptures are accurate. Not only that, but they are subject to human interpretation and I do not believe the interpretations are accurate. Many of the Writings of Baha'u'llah say that the essence of God (His intrinsic nature) is completely unknowable. Not even the Messengers of God can comprehend the Essence of God, so how much less can any ordinary human being understand it? Here is an excerpt from a Tablet wherein Baha'u'llah was referring to God as the only one who can Know God:

“I am moved to testify that Thy court of holiness and glory is immeasurably exalted above the knowledge of all else besides Thee, and the mystery of Thy Presence is inscrutable to every mind except Thine own. No one except Thyself can unravel the secret of Thy nature, and naught else but Thy transcendental Essence can grasp the reality of Thy unsearchable being. How vast the number of those heavenly and all-glorious beings who, in the wilderness of their separation from Thee, have wandered all the days of their lives, and failed in the end to find Thee! How great the multitude of the sanctified and immortal souls who were lost and bewildered while seeking in the desert of search to behold Thy face!”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 64

These are all based on the assumption that God is all powerful and wise, which is again something that you can't demonstrate other than through hearsay.

No religious beliefs can ever be proven, that is why they are called beliefs. You can call it hearsay if you want to but I believe there is no other way to know anything about God except through His Messengers.

If God is not all-powerful, all-knowing and all-wise there would be no reason to even believe in Him or follow in His Way.

Well if you have certitude in your beliefs then how can you say that you don't think you are right? Certitude means you have absolute knowledge which means you can't be wrong.

Certitude of my beliefs means "I believe" that the beliefs are true, that the beliefs cannot he wrong. It says nothing about me being right, it is about the beliefs. I believe they are true.

 

[CG Didymus]

Good luck with that happening. It will require a completely new species to fulfil this. It's in man's nature to want more than others.

Some day later he will create a "new race" of men that will be more loving, peaceful and just. Hmmm, then why doesn't their God do it right now?

 

[CG Didymus]

Predicting wars is very much like predicting the sun will shine.

So isn't that implying that when Jesus returns there will be no more wars? Yet, Baha'is say Jesus, or The Christ, has returned as Baha'u'llah, but there is still wars going on.

 

[CG Didymus]

The problem is, if you assume a god exists, that the present method of delivering messages is flawed. Very very flawed.

It could be designed by conmen to deceive us. Because it dodges any attempt at proving itself, it leaves it to us to sort out the genuine messenger from the conman, we have to believe the genuine messenger is getting the message and interpreting it to us correctly, it allows conmen to recruit an army of conmen to try to convince us and when we ask how do the messengers get their messages, we're told we wouldn't understand.

The Emperor's New Clothes - Wikipedia

Using Christianity as an example, even if it was true in the beginning, the religion was taken over by conmen. And I don't think many Baha'is would disagree. In fact, Baha'is say that Islam was taken over by conmen... the Umayyads and the Abbasids.

 

[CG Didymus]

They can believe whatever they want to, as can I. I do not care if they think I am delusional.

So Jesus People... They love God and Jesus with all their heart and they love their neighbors as themselves. Nothing wrong with that. But then the deeper stuff... the beliefs the Jesus rose from the dead, believing in Satan, believing they are going to be "raptured" and meet Jesus in the air and so on. Then they start looking delusional. Same with Mormons. Nice people, but the Book of Mormon says that Jesus came to the Americas and was with, I think it might have been, the lost tribes of Israel? If that's so... then a little towards delusional. And we could probably do that with all religions. Maybe even the Baha'is.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So Jesus People... They love God and Jesus with all their heart and they love their neighbors as themselves. Nothing wrong with that. But then the deeper stuff... the beliefs the Jesus rose from the dead, believing in Satan, believing they are going to be "raptured" and meet Jesus in the air and so on. Then they start looking delusional. Same with Mormons. Nice people, but the Book of Mormon says that Jesus came to the Americas and was with, I think it might have been, the lost tribes of Israel? If that's so... then a little towards delusional. And we could probably do that with all religions. Maybe even the Baha'is.

Maybe so, it is all your choice.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

What mysterious "original" message are you referring to?

I don't think there is one, if not you, I've head that from other Baha'is.... Someone said that "originally" Buddha taught about God. Maybe this guy?

The founder of Buddhism was a wonderful soul. He established the Oneness of God, but later the original principles of His doctrines gradually disappeared, and ignorant customs and ceremonials arose and increased until they finally ended in the worship of statues and images. – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 165.​

It means they all came from the one true God. Baha'u'llah explained why the religions are different.

I just took basic courses in religious studies, but even at that level, they already didn't appear to have come from the same source.

 

[CG Didymus]

End of what? It does not say end of the world.

You got a NT? If you do... open the pages and read it for yourself.... especially Revelation and tell me how you see the Three Woes being Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah.

 

[CG Didymus]

Matthew the Apostle, also known as Saint Matthew and as Levi, was, according to the New Testament, one of the twelve apostles of Jesus. According to Christian tradition, he was also one of the four Evangelists and thus is also known as Matthew the Evangelist.
Place of burial: Cathedral of Saint Mary of the ...
Profession: Tax collector

Matthew the Apostle - Wikipedia

Did this Matthew write the gospel that bears his name?

 

[CG Didymus]

People are free to believe that of they want to and people believe all sorts of things, but that does not make them true.

But these are Hindus. A religion recognized by the Baha'i Faith as being true. Or, it's a true religion but doesn't necessarily have true beliefs and practices? Kind of like the people, the followers, of the religion made somethings up?

 

[CG Didymus]

Anyone can believe whatever they want to believe but that does not make it true. Normal people who claim to be in constant contact with God, some of whom would claim that God reached out to them are delusional, as far as I am concerned.

Of course they're delusional to you, because you've limited yourself to believe that God isn't personal. I'm sure you would seem delusional to them with your beliefs

They can believe whatever they want to, as can I. I do not care if they think I am delusional.

So Jesus People... They love God and Jesus with all their heart and they love their neighbors as themselves. Nothing wrong with that. But then the deeper stuff... the beliefs the Jesus rose from the dead, believing in Satan, believing they are going to be "raptured" and meet Jesus in the air and so on. Then they start looking delusional. Same with Mormons. Nice people, but the Book of Mormon says that Jesus came to the Americas and was with, I think it might have been, the lost tribes of Israel? If that's so... then a little towards delusional. And we could probably do that with all religions. Maybe even the Baha'is.

Maybe so, it is all your choice.

What?

 

[Trailblazer]

Some day later he will create a "new race" of men that will be more loving, peaceful and just. Hmmm, then why doesn't their God do it right now?

God is not the one who will be creating the new race of men. The new race of men will create themselves.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

We say that because it is true

Make more claims.

, although not all theists know what the Plan is.

I guess the plan was making the world look exactly as it would look if god(s) had nothing to do with it and man invented all religions, with all resulting division, sectarianism and religious wars as an inevitable result.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Believe whatever explanation you want to believe and I will believe mine.

No, instead of simply believing what I like best, I'll go with the explanation that best fits the evidence.

You should try it sometime. You probably already do that for everything else in your life.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No expectations of God are ever reasonable

So next to being completely untestable, unverifiable and without any type of detectable manifestation, one can also not event count on this god acting in logical manner.


Uhu.
Convenient, isn't it? It suspiciously seems like almost the perfect set-up for a get-out-of-jail free card to counter any and all objections and counter-arguments. Or even just the lack of rational evidence or logical arguments FOR the position.

God has a plan and you don't know the plan.
God is mysterious.
God is unreasonable.
God is not logical.
God is without manifestation.

One cop-out after the other.

And all that, just to avoid actually addressing the points made, the objections raised and the lack of any evidence in favor of the claim.

You must understand how this makes up for an extremely bad case in your favor. In fact, I'm having a REALLY hard time coming up with ways to make it even less believable.

You are darn tootin' that the messages get warped over time

It's actually worse then that.
Since you believe that all religions were kickstarted by this god, then all religions were already warped right from the get-go, since all religions are quite different from one another and pretty much mutually exclusive. This has always been the case.

It's not like the religion of the mayans and judaism had a common root.

, and that God knows that will happen, and that is one reason why God sends another Messenger with a new message that is not warped.

Yeah, that's what muhammed said.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I never saw you offer an alternative that would convince you that I hand-waved away.

God could have made several copies of a single book made from indestructible materials and of which the text magically appears in the language of the reader, and have that books send to all corners of the world so that there wasn't a single culture with a different religion.

I would be instantly convinced that it wasn't of human origin.