God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

Daniel 5:1-6

King Belshazzar gave a great banquet for a thousand of his nobles and drank wine with them. 2 While Belshazzar was drinking his wine, he gave orders to bring in the gold and silver goblets that Nebuchadnezzar his father had taken from the temple in Jerusalem, so that the king and his nobles, his wives and his concubines might drink from them. 3 So they brought in the gold goblets that had been taken from the temple of God in Jerusalem, and the king and his nobles, his wives and his concubines drank from them. 4 As they drank the wine, they praised the gods of gold and silver, of bronze, iron, wood and stone.

5 Suddenly the fingers of a human hand appeared and wrote on the plaster of the wall, near the lampstand in the royal palace. The king watched the hand as it wrote. 6 His face turned pale and he was so frightened that his legs became weak and his knees were knocking.
​

There is also God writing the Ten Commandments. And your interpretations of those Bible verses? "Just stories"? And God, supposedly, created man and the animals, the Earth and sky, but he can't write? And your Logic 101 course taught you that?

God did not ever write anything, Please spare me any more Bible anthropomorphisms.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think you should ask a Christian.

But I'm asking you, the Baha'i, because you, the Baha'i, makes the claim that each messenger brings the same spiritual laws but a different set of social laws. But, again, don't worry about, because I figured you didn't know and probably didn't care.

 

[CG Didymus]

God did not ever write anything, Please spare me any more Bible anthropomorphisms.

No, I want to hear you say it... "The Bible is myth. It is not literally true. Those things didn't happen." Most of us here keep saying that we believe that people wrote those stories. We almost agree with you. It's just that somehow, you as a Baha'is have to also say that the Bible is the Word of God.... and somehow, it is God that is giving of these flawed messages?

 

[Trailblazer]

What is the responsibility of an individual Baha'i to teach the Cause? And are there suggestions on how to do it? And again and again, you make a claim, when first revealed the religion was pristine, and can't back it up. But don't worry about it. I pretty much thought you couldn't.

Yes, it is the responsibility of Baha'is to teach the Cause of Baha'u'llah, not to answer questions about other religions.

Show me where Baha'u'llah ever said that is our responsibility. Below is what He said about the older religions;
He said they are devoid of truth, so why would I waste my time on them?

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

 

[CG Didymus]

It is the ONLY method that would ever work,

When has it ever worked? Hmmm? A message is brought by a man who says he is an incarnation of a God. Does he have the message written down and hands it to the people? No, he is a character in a story written by the people. Another story has a prince meditate under a tree. Another has God speak to him from a burning bush. Great stories. But if people wrote them, are they really from a one and only God? Baha'is say yes but just don't take them literally.

 

[Trailblazer]

%&^$ others. What the %&*$ are you doing to promote the things in the Baha'i peace plan?

I am doing what Baha'u'llah enjoined me to do, what He said is most important for a Baha'i to do, because there can be no peace plan without Baha'is to work it....

“Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds....” Gleanings, p. 278

I see nothing in there about teaching the older religions.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Allah cannot write Tablets because Allah is Spirit, not flesh.
This is logic 101 stuff.

Once again you deny your Allah. He can convey his message to that uneducated 19th Century Iranian preacher but he cannot write tablets. Is that what you mean by Logic 101?

 

[Trailblazer]

But I'm asking you, the Baha'i, because you, the Baha'i, makes the claim that each messenger brings the same spiritual laws but a different set of social laws. But, again, don't worry about, because I figured you didn't know and probably didn't care.

It is not my job to answer questions about Christianity, but I am sure any Christian would be glad to answer.
If you really want to know why not ask a Christian?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes it is the responsibility of Baha'is to teach the Cause of Baha'u'llah, not to answer questions about other religions.

Show me where Baha'u'llah ever said that is our responsibility. Below is what He said about the older religions; He said they are devoid of truth, so why would I waste my time on them?

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

Well that clears it up. Let's dump all the religions and there BS Holy Books. They are all corrupt and devoid of truth. Okay Baha'is.... What do you mean by the "Oneness" of religion. All the major religions were true and the messengers were all true. But people mangled those truths. So flawed humans can't be trusted with religious truth? They will always corrupt it? Except now of course. God finally put things in place so flawed humans can't screw up his pure teachings. But who made humans the way they are, with flaws?

 

[Trailblazer]

It's just that somehow, you as a Baha'is have to also say that the Bible is the Word of God.... and somehow, it is God that is giving of these flawed messages?

That is not what Baha'is say:

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

 

[Trailblazer]

When has it ever worked? Hmmm?

It has always worked. Most people in the world believe in God because of a Messenger of God so that method has been very successful. According to these statistics, 84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. We know that Christians and Muslims believe in a Messenger and they comprise 55% of the world population. Hindus and Buddhists comprise most of the rest of believers and they also have a Messenger (or messengers) they believe in. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are men who founded the religions, so they are Mediators between God and man. Sure, there are a few stragglers, believers who believe in God but not a Messenger; this comprises about 9% of the world population, but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers, very few people would believe in God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Once again you deny your Allah. He can convey his message to that uneducated 19th Century Iranian preacher but he cannot write tablets. Is that what you mean by Logic 101?

Yep, because a Spirit cannot write Tablets.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well that clears it up. Let's dump all the religions and there BS Holy Books. They are all corrupt and devoid of truth. Okay Baha'is.... What do you mean by the "Oneness" of religion. All the major religions were true and the messengers were all true. But people mangled those truths. So flawed humans can't be trusted with religious truth? They will always corrupt it? Except now of course. God finally put things in place so flawed humans can't screw up his pure teachings.

That pretty much sums it up.

But who made humans the way they are, with flaws?

God didn't create them that way. Baha'is believe we were born good.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yep, because a Spirit cannot write Tablets.

Then tell me what all a spirit can do and what all it cannot do?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Evidence is not what makes anything into reality. Reality simply exists and we either discover it or fail to do so...
Evidence is just what some people want to believe, but not all people have the same standards of evidence.
And some of us realize that it is logically impossible to ever prove that the Maid of Heaven or the Angel Gabriel visited Baha'u'llah or Muhammad, as that is a faith-based belief.

Why is your standard of evidence so low that it would accept whatever was said in 19th Century by an uneducated Iranian preacher even if he offered no evidence or proof?
Is there anything which can logically be proved in what Bahaollah or his predecessors said (Start with Adam and end with Moses, Jesus and Mohammad)?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Hindus and Buddhists comprise most of the rest of believers and they also have a Messenger (or messengers) they believe in. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are men who founded the religions, so they are Mediators between God and man. Sure, there are a few stragglers, believers who believe in God but not a Messenger; this comprises about 9% of the world population, but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers, very few people would believe in God.

Neither Krishna nor Buddha established Hinduism or Buddhism. Krishna was the eighth avatara of Lord Vishnu (we do not have messengers. Theist Hindus believe that God himself turns up in human form). One cannot put limits to what a God or Goddess can do, except that they will not engage in evil. Buddha was sixth of the historical Buddhas (and to Hindus the ninth avatara of Lord Vishnu).

 

[Trailblazer]

Then tell me what all a spirit can do and what all it cannot do?

I don't really know.
God is unknowable.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why is your standard of evidence so low that it would accept whatever was said in 19th Century by an uneducated Iranian preacher even if he offered no evidence or proof?

My standard of evidence isn't low. There is plenty of evidence:

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

 

[Aupmanyav]

According to these statistics, 84 percent of the world population has a faith.
The point is that with no Messengers, very few people would believe in God.

And that is the biggest reason for strife in the world (currently Azerbaijan and Armenia in the news).
It is the messages from Allah / God that create strife. Examples are Bahais in Iran and Ahmaddiyas in Pakistan.
My question is whether these messengers are sent by some evil power to create strife in the world?

I don't really know. God is unknowable.

Your 19th Century Iranaian preacher must have said something about Allah in his 15,000 tablets.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Theist Hindus believe that God himself turns up in human form).

Some Christians believe that also.

Regards Tony