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God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And really, God made everything, but God can't communicate to people? Or, I should say, ordinary people. He does communicate to his special people, his messengers. So he could make people with the ability to be able to hear him and listen to him and obey him, but he chooses not to? And then blames people for failing. Nice guy.
As I was just telling @ Nimos on his new thread, Baha’u’llah wrote that everyone has the capacity to believe in God, by recognizing His Messenger, because if we did not have the capacity we could not be held accountable.

“I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

Furthermore, if God had not endowed everyone with the capacity to recognize the signs of God, then God could not have fulfilled His testimony through Baha’u’llah because we would not be able to understand what Baha’u’llah revealed, and that would not be just.

“He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What is so confusing about something is either perfect or not perfect.
Nothing in life is either perfect or not perfect, that is black and white thinking, thus the fallacy.

As such a method that God uses to communicate is not either flawed or unflawed, because there are other possibilities, shades of gray in between flawed and unflawed. As such just because it has some flaws that does not mean it is not a good method of communication. Just because our 1986 Honda Prelude is old and the paint is peeling off that does not mean it is not a good car. In 20 years, it has cost us less than $1000 in repair bills.

I have no interest in arguing with you to prove I am right about logical fallacies because I don’t need to be right as that is all about ego. I do not even care who is right or wrong about the technical meaning of a fallacy, I only care about the important things in life like God, service to God, and spiritual growth.

I am sorry if I offended you by saying you obfuscated. Often things look very different from our own perspectives when we are in a heated discussion. I am now sorry I said that because the last thing I want to do is offend anyone.

This is the gist of black and white thinking:

The Fallacy of Black and White Thinking

When we fall victim to Black and White Thinking, we have mistakenly reduced an entire spectrum of possibilities down to the two most extreme options. Each is the polar opposite of the other without any shades of gray in between. Often, those categories are of our own creation. We attempt to force the world to conform to our preconceptions about what it should look like.

Flaws in Reasoning and Arguments: Black and White Thinking
 
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Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
I remember Christians telling me that God's will is that everyone would come to Jesus and none would perish. So that's his will, but since people are idiots and turn away from Jesus, we can't blame God. Oh wait, God made them idiots and then has Jesus tell them that they will burn in hell for not believing. And then has Baha'u'llah tell them there is no real place called hell. So for 2000 years God lied to people and tried to scare them into believing? And even that was flawed, because it still didn't work. And, because God lied then, why believe him now? Or, it is people making all this stuff up.

Definitely the last part!
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
New Race of Men

Is required because the old race of Men, after numerous attempts to get Hominids to Home Sapiens, 3.5 million years, this race of Men keep thinking for themselves and not doing what Bahaullah tells them to.

|What arrogant, self-obsessed nonsense is this?

It's been nearly 200 years since Bahaullah was born, after getting his mission while in his mother's womb, and still no New Race of Men. Why? Because without a new race few are going to start following this guy.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
In the past, Baha'is say that the "flaw" was with people. But, who made people with flaws? So after sending all these messengers to tell flawed thinking people to listen and obey the message sent from God, God finally gets a clue... "Gee, I better make a new race of men that will still have free will but will choose to obey me." And for thousands of years God couldn't have figured that out? God let people keep failing to implement his plan?

But, as lots of us have pointed out in the other thread, all these laws and rules, all the supposed things God has done is all very likely, manmade. It doesn't sound like it came from an all knowing all loving infallible God. And really, God made everything, but God can't communicate to people? Or, I should say, ordinary people. He does communicate to his special people, his messengers. So he could make people with the ability to be able to hear him and listen to him and obey him, but he chooses not to? And then blames people for failing. Nice guy.
It doesn't come from an infallible god. It comes from fallible men.

The concept of an infallible god getting it wrong is stupid, but that's what some would have us believe.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I assumed he was referring to this;

The rapture is an eschatological concept held by some Christians, particularly within branches of American evangelicalism, consisting of an end-time event when all Christian believers who are alive, along with resurrected believers, will rise "in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air."

Study what I actually said about Faith Healing. There are more deaths caused by faith healings than cures. Referring to the people who believe god will cure them or a placebo. It would be pointless if placebos saved more than they killed.

I believe people who are sick tend to die. It is like the warning on an asthma medicine that a side affect is a breathing problem. The breathing problem preceded the medicine.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The Flood never happened as described in the bible. Moses, Jews in Egypt, never existed, taking over Caanan an Egyptian province at the time I gave my evidence.

You later claim to have evidence of all his prophecies, give us your evidence then that I'm wrong.

I believe that is all nonsense. It is like the scientists who claimed a city mentioned in the Bible didn't exist because there was no evidence of it and then at a later date an archeological dig discovered that city. The truth is that science does not have the information but has guesses instead.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
I believe that is all nonsense. It is like the scientists who claimed a city mentioned in the Bible didn't exist because there was no evidence of it and then at a later date an archeological dig discovered that city. The truth is that science does not have the information but has guesses instead.
Science is fallible and that's the point of it. The endless task of learning more. Unlike bibles which claim to be fallible and about learning only what they tell you to believe. No decent scientists claim they believe in god because they can't get everything right.

Science looks at the evidence and in some cases uses it to make an educated guess, archaeology being very much like that. In most other disciplines it proves it's right or wrong.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Which he got from the bible.
No, He got it from God. Baha'u'llah had no Bible to refer to when He was writing His Tablets. :rolleyes:
What Baha'u'llah wrote came from His own mind.

Besides, everything does not come from the Bible.
The Bible is not the only Holy Book that was ever written.... :rolleyes:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It's been nearly 200 years since Bahaullah was born, after getting his mission while in his mother's womb, and still no New Race of Men. Why? Because without a new race few are going to start following this guy.
No, because most people have not recognized Baha'u'llah, yet.

The New Race of Men will not be seen till people recognize and follow Baha'u'llah.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So what did he write?
This is what Baha'u'llah wrote about Jesus:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
No, He got it from God. Baha'u'llah had no Bible to refer to when He was writing His Tablets. :rolleyes:
What Baha'u'llah wrote came from His own mind.

Besides, everything does not come from the Bible.
The Bible is not the only Holy Book that was ever written.... :rolleyes:
He tells his followers he got it from god. In that one time meeting.

I'll agree it came comes from Bahaullah's mind, or imagination.

You have nothing solid to base your belief on. I have at least 100,000s of charlatans to prove the rest are charlatans.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.


When Jesus came into the world and left it there was no recognition of who he was. It's the world of Paul, Peter, Constantine and others that created the Jesus legend. He couldn't persuade the priests in the temple or Pilate he was the Son of god. To do so in 35 AD would have saved a lot of trouble and bloodshed.

So Bahaullah got it wrong.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Nothing in life is either perfect or not perfect, that is black and white thinking, thus the fallacy.

As such a method that God uses to communicate is not either flawed or unflawed, because there are other possibilities, shades of gray in between flawed and unflawed. As such just because it has some flaws that does not mean it is not a good method of communication. Just because our 1986 Honda Prelude is old and the paint is peeling off that does not mean it is not a good car. In 20 years, it has cost us less than $1000 in repair bills.
Now that is an example of red herring. We're not talking about cars, paint jobs, or "good," we are talking about the method being flawed or not flawed.

I have no interest in arguing with you to prove I am right about logical fallacies because I don’t need to be right as that is all about ego. I do not even care who is right or wrong about the technical meaning of a fallacy, I only care about the important things in life like God, service to God, and spiritual growth.
Now you're contradicting yourself. We are talking about God's method applying logic for understanding it. If you don't care about using logic correctly, why even discuss logic with God's method.

You've just show that it is all about your ego. You're no longer interested in taking about logical fallacies because you failed to show that you are right. You are using a logical fallacy incorrectly in your discussion that has to do with spiritual growth, and yet you are unwilling to grow by refusing to learn something new. That doesn't sound like someone who wants to grow spiritually, knowledge, wisdom etc. Sounds more like someone who just wants to tell others that they are right just to fill their ego.

This is the gist of black and white thinking:

The Fallacy of Black and White Thinking

When we fall victim to Black and White Thinking, we have mistakenly reduced an entire spectrum of possibilities down to the two most extreme options. Each is the polar opposite of the other without any shades of gray in between. Often, those categories are of our own creation. We attempt to force the world to conform to our preconceptions about what it should look like.

Flaws in Reasoning and Arguments: Black and White Thinking
If you are going to copy and paste something from a website, don't just post some out of context writings so that it looks as if it aligns with your argument. You didn't post the important part that is relevant to this discussion. So here it is.

  • The Black-or-White Fallacy is an unusual one in that, like Begging the Question, it is a validating form of argument, which means that every instance is valid. For example, some instances have the validating form:
    Simple Constructive Dilemma:

    Either p or q.
    If p then r.
    If q then r.
    Therefore, r.

    For this reason, this fallacy is sometimes called "false" or "bogus" dilemma. However, these names are misleading, since not all instances have the form of a dilemma; some instead take the following, also validating form:

    Disjunctive Syllogism:

    Either p or q.
    Not-p.
    Therefore, q.

    Usually, the truth-value of premisses is not a question for logic, but for other sciences, or common sense. So, while an argument with a false premiss is unsound, it is usually not considered fallacious5. However, when a disjunctive premiss is false for specifically logical reasons, or when the support for it is based upon a fallacy, then the argument commits the Black-or-White Fallacy.

    One such logical error is confusing contrary with contradictory propositions: of two contradictory propositions, exactly one will be true; but of two contrary propositions, at most one will be true, but both may be false. For example:

    Contradictories
    It's hot today. It's not hot today.
    Contraries
    It's hot today. It's cold today.
    A disjunction whose disjuncts are contradictories is an instance of the Law of Excluded Middle, so it is logically true. For instance, "either it's hot today or it's not hot today." In contrast, a disjunction whose disjuncts are contraries is logically contingent. For example, "either it's hot today or it's cold today." If an arguer confuses the latter with the former in the premiss of an argument, they may commit the Black-or-White Fallacy.

The most important thing were it says, about confusing contrary with contradictory propositions.


So I'm explaining to you that you are incorrect about the fallacy. The "black or white" fallacy and "black and white" thinking are two separate things. I'm not in disagreement with your definition of black and white thinking, it's your definition of the black or white fallacy that is in disagreement.

There's nothing wrong with someone correcting your mistake. And I think that admitting one's own mistake is how one can grow. I care about the truth, whether it's for me or so that someone else will know the truth. That's why I care about talking to you about being right or wrong about a logical fallacy.

If I was to think that Baha'i faith believes that the ressurecion of jesus is true and you tell me that I'm wrong and explain it to me, I will take it in consideration and rethink my position by doing research about it. I appreciate if someone is willing to help me get closer to the truth, even if just telling me once. That, compared to if someone knew that I was mistaken and not correcting me, still go along as if I was right. I knew of the fallacy before having this conversation. After reading your post, I still followed the link you post to see if I was wrong about what I thought of the fallacy. After reading the link, it reassured me that I was correct about the fallacy because what was said in the website supports what I said.

I don't know about you, but I choose to know the truth over staying ignorance.
 
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