God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

You've just show that it is all about your ego. You're no longer interested in taking about logical fallacies because you failed to show that you are right.

That sure sounds like projection to me, because I already told you I have no need to be right.

I said: I have no interest in arguing with you to prove I am right about logical fallacies because I don’t need to be right as that is all about ego. I do not even care who is right or wrong about the technical meaning of a fallacy, I only care about the important things in life like God, service to God, and spiritual growth.

It seems to me that you need to be right though, because you are STILL insisting you are right and I am wrong.

Now you are speaking for me and telling me why I no longer want to talk about logical fallacies, after I already told you why I do not want to talk about them.

No, you are the one who has just shown it is about your ego, because you are STILL trying to prove you are right and I am wrong, even after I said I do not care who is right or wrong.

So I'm explaining to you that you are incorrect about the fallacy. The "black or white" fallacy and "black and white" thinking are two separate things. I'm not in disagreement with your definition of black and white thinking, it's your definition of the black or white fallacy that is in disagreement.

There's nothing wrong with someone correcting your mistake. And I think that admitting one's own mistake is how one can grow. I care about the truth, whether it's for me or so that someone else will know the truth. That's why I care about talking to you about being right or wrong about a logical fallacy.

It was not my definition, it was definition I found online. I was referring to black and white thinking and that is all I care about because I think that it applies to this conversation about whether or not the method God uses to communicate is flawed or not.

I care about the truth but I do not care about the truth of a logical fallacy because it is not important to me. I tried to make that clear but apparently you either did not understand or you think I should care about logical fallacies just because you do. I am not ashamed of not knowing everything about logical fallacies because I do not have false pride. I learn things that I need to know as I go along in life.

If I was to think that Baha'i Faith believes that the resurrection of Jesus is true and you tell me that I'm wrong and explain it to me, I will take it in consideration and rethink my position by doing research about it.

Are you saying you believe that Jesus rose from the grave? If you believe that, how could I prove you are wrong?

Sure, I could explain why Baha'is do not believe that, but would it make any difference to you?

 

[Trailblazer]

Now that is an example of red herring. We're not talking about cars, paint jobs, or "good," we are talking about the method being flawed or not flawed.

It is no different so it is not a red herring. Flawed vs. not flawed can apply to anything.

You have not proven that God's method of communicating is flawed. All you have is a personal opinion, we all have those. We could argue endlessly about why the method is flawed or not flawed but all it would only be a battle of egos. Sorry, but I do not care to participate in that.

If God communicated using Messengers, then it cannot be flawed method, if God is Infallible All-Knowing and All-Wise. If you want to believe that God does not have those attributes then you will have to find someone else to talk to because I am only interested in discussing the one true God as He is revealed in the Abrahamic religions.

Since there is no evidence that God has ever communicated any way other than Messengers, as I see it there are only two other logical possibilities:

1. God exists and does not communicate to humans
2. God does not exist

 

[Trailblazer]

He tells his followers he got it from god. In that one time meeting.

I'll agree it came comes from Bahaullah's mind, or imagination.

I already told you that He did not get it in that one time meeting.

It came from Baha'u'llah's mind, but how it got there you do not know. I have my beliefs and you have yours, why argue about them? You can't prove you are right and neither can I.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it will never happen.

Prove it. Otherwise it is only a belief. We all have those.

 

[night912]

That sure sounds like projection to me, because I already told you I have no need to be right.

It was through observations. And what I observed, going back and forth with posts, you insisted that you were right. Sure.... there was no need to be right, you just believed that you needed to be right.
Got it.

I said: I have no interest in arguing with you to prove I am right about logical fallacies because I don’t need to be right as that is all about ego. I do not even care who is right or wrong about the technical meaning of a fallacy, I only care about the important things in life like God, service to God, and spiritual growth.

It seems to me that you need to be right though, because you are STILL insisting you are right and I am wrong.

Now you are speaking for me and telling me why I no longer want to talk about logical fallacies, after I already told you why I do not want to talk about them.

No, you are the one who has just shown it is about your ego, because you are STILL trying to prove you are right and I am wrong, even after I said I do not care who is right or wrong.

And here you are, insisting that I'm wrong.

It was not my definition, it was definition I found online. I was referring to black and white thinking and that is all I care about because I think that it applies to this conversation about whether or not the method God uses to communicate is flawed or not.

Sure.......you were. That's why you were so happy and let the public know what you've learned.

I just learned two new fallacies today, thanks.

You copied and paste the definitions that you misunderstood with links that lead to a website about logical fallacies.

And since you did thanked me for you learning new fallacies, eventhough I wasn't the one who lead you into making a mistake and made you believe in false information, I want to at least make sure that you learned new fallacies correctly.

I care about the truth but I do not care about the truth of a logical fallacy because it is not important to me.

So you don't care about the truth regarding logic because it's not important to you. That's confusing because there are plenty of times that in RF telling others about the importance of logic. But I guess you're right(something to boost your ego), it's not important to you that's why you wanted the public to know that you learned new fallacies.

I tried to make that clear but apparently you either did not understand or you think I should care about logical fallacies just because you do.

Well, it's confusing when someone post the definition of the black or white fallacy and tell the public that they just learned that new fallacy. Then that person insisted on telling someone that they are wrong, even after they try explaining that a mistake was made by mixing up two different things even giving the clear distinction between two.

I am not ashamed of not knowing everything about logical fallacies because I do not have false pride. I learn things that I need to know as I go along in life.

And you shouldn't be ashamed of yourself about not knowing everything about logical fallacies, nor should you be ashamed about making mistakes and/or being wrong. And it's important to admit being wrong and/or making mistakes, that's how you learn new things correctly.

 

[CG Didymus]

As I was just telling @ Nimos on his new thread, Baha’u’llah wrote that everyone has the capacity to believe in God, by recognizing His Messenger, because if we did not have the capacity we could not be held accountable.

“I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

Furthermore, if God had not endowed everyone with the capacity to recognize the signs of God, then God could not have fulfilled His testimony through Baha’u’llah because we would not be able to understand what Baha’u’llah revealed, and that would not be just.

“He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

Well, Christianity is a good example of a flawed message. People were led to believe that they were hopelessly lost sinners. That the penalty for sin was that God would send them to hell to burn and suffer. But, like you say, God gave them free will. They could continue to sin and disobey God, or they could accept his son Jesus and have their sins forgiven. And like Tony likes to say, there's no coercion in religion. Yeah right, free will to choose between eternal punishment or to be in heaven with God? Was that true? Baha'is say that there is no hell and there is no original sin as believed by some Christians.

So what's this "capacity" thing? Capacity to be told spiritual things and to believe them as true when they aren't? Then there is the rest of the things Christians tell people that Jesus rose from the dead and that Jesus is coming back and that some of them will meet him in the air and be given "resurrected" bodies. That the dead in Christ will come back to life in new bodies. Sure, people have the capacity to believe these religious things. But I'm talking about that God made special people that he could communicate directly to. But, he made other people that couldn't. They had to listen to and decide if a messenger was true or false. And most of what Christians told people to believe in was false. Yet, Christianity is one of the true, revealed religions?

 

[CG Didymus]

Which he got from the bible.

Hmmm? The miracles in the NT are questionable and some Baha'is say they were literal. The resurrection Baha'is say was definitely not literal. There is no literal place called hell. Nor is there a Satan. God did not speak from heaven. The born in sin thing is false. The church leaders made Jesus God, which is false. By the time we get done, what is it that Baha'is believe about Jesus?

 

[CG Didymus]

The New Race of Men will not be seen till people recognize and follow Baha'u'llah.

So it will never happen.

a fresh capacity was infused into all created things.

So if God "infused" this fresh capacity in all created things... what happened? Why didn't the infusion create a "new" race of men? But this time it will? And, if it does, that means that God can, infuse stuff into people to make them do good, but, in the past, didn't do a very good job on infusing. A flaw? Or that was God's plan all along? He wanted corrupt religious leaders and religious wars. And how do we know this? Because that is what happened and since God knows all, it must be what he wanted. And nobody can argue with that kind of logic.

 

[Trailblazer]

So if God "infused" this fresh capacity in all created things... what happened? Why didn't the infusion create a "new" race of men? But this time it will? And, if it does, that means that God can, infuse stuff into people to make them do good, but, in the past, didn't do a very good job on infusing. A flaw? Or that was God's plan all along? He wanted corrupt religious leaders and religious wars. And how do we know this? Because that is what happened and since God knows all, it must be what he wanted. And nobody can argue with that kind of logic.

Notice what the passage says.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 85

It was not God who infused this fresh capacity into all created things, it was the sacrifice Jesus made, and it did change the course of history and change the hearts of men. I cannot even imagine the world without Christianity. i know what the issues are with certain beliefs Christians have because they are accepted doctrines of the church, but I can see past that, and I know the Bible stories are not literally true , but I can see past that too, to the teachings of Jesus, and that is what shone through and changed the world.

Unfortunately, that infusion does not last forever so humanity needed another infusion.

Good to see you as always. I hope you are doing well and staying safe. The world we are living in is almost surreal these days. I used to be aloof from politics but I have been on the edge of my seat and will be until this election is over. So much hangs in the balance, division or unity.

 

[Trailblazer]

By the time we get done, what is it that Baha'is believe about Jesus?

Here is what Abdu'l-Baha said about Christ and Baha'u'llah (the Greatest Luminary) and the significance of what Jesus did for us. This is in the chapter 30: ADAM AND EVE:

“When the sanctified breezes of Christ and the holy light of the Greatest Luminary 5 were spread abroad, the human realities—that is to say, those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, Christianity is a good example of a flawed message. People were led to believe that they were hopelessly lost sinners. That the penalty for sin was that God would send them to hell to burn and suffer. But, like you say, God gave them free will. They could continue to sin and disobey God, or they could accept his son Jesus and have their sins forgiven. And like Tony likes to say, there's no coercion in religion. Yeah right, free will to choose between eternal punishment or to be in heaven with God? Was that true? Baha'is say that there is no hell and there is no original sin as believed by some Christians.

But you cannot blame God or Jesus for those flaws; all those flaws are flaws that mean made by misinterpreting the Bible and creating false doctrines, and some of those flaws are owing to the Bible authors.... still men.

The good news is that you do not have ti believe in the christian doctrines of original sin and hell.

So what's this "capacity" thing? Capacity to be told spiritual things and to believe them as true when they aren't?

No, it is the capacity to believe in God and Messengers, what is true.

And most of what Christians told people to believe in was false. Yet, Christianity is one of the true, revealed religions?

It was, before it got all messed up by men.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have tried to have respectful dialogues with certain people I finally realized that is not possible. This is not about anyone disagreeing with my beliefs, as I do not care if people disagree with my beliefs. This is about personal insults, be they direct or indirect. This week I made a decision that I will only post to people who are respectful. I will no longer post to people who speak for me as if they know me better than I know myself or call me brainwashed, dishonest, or egotistical.

I am done with people who cannot be courteous. I have no obligation to read or post to anyone who cannot be courteous. I never had anyone on Ignore until this week but now I have three posters on Ignore.

“O people of God! I admonish you to observe courtesy, for above all else it is the prince of virtues. Well is it with him who is illumined with the light of courtesy and is attired with the vesture of uprightness. Whoso is endued with courtesy hath indeed attained a sublime station. It is hoped that this Wronged One and everyone else may be enabled to acquire it, hold fast unto it, observe it, and fix our gaze upon it. This is a binding command which hath streamed forth from the Pen of the Most Great Name.”

(Baha’u’llah, Tablet of the World, p. 88.)

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

It is no different so it is not a red herring. Flawed vs. not flawed can apply to anything.

You have not proven that God's method of communicating is flawed. All you have is a personal opinion, we all have those. We could argue endlessly about why the method is flawed or not flawed but all it would only be a battle of egos. Sorry, but I do not care to participate in that.

If God communicated using Messengers, then it cannot be flawed method, if God is Infallible All-Knowing and All-Wise. If you want to believe that God does not have those attributes then you will have to find someone else to talk to because I am only interested in discussing the one true God as He is revealed in the Abrahamic religions.

Since there is no evidence that God has ever communicated any way other than Messengers, as I see it there are only two other logical possibilities:

1. God exists and does not communicate to humans
2. God does not exist

Flawed v not flawed is to be seen in the results.

Are all the true messages getting through? NO.
Are many false messages getting through? YES.
Is an Infallible All-Knowing and All-Wise god changinging it's Modus Operandi? NO.

Therefore a flawed method. Just saying it isn't doesn't provide a reason for success.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I already told you that He did not get it in that one time meeting.

It came from Baha'u'llah's mind, but how it got there you do not know. I have my beliefs and you have yours, why argue about them? You can't prove you are right and neither can I.

I have no wish to prove he didn't get it from his mind. It's obvious he did get it from his mind. The problem is any of it true? He read something and changed it in his mind is my theory. You believe god or some divine feeling changed it, without any proof. I can point to the 100,000s of fake gurus who use the same method.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Prove it. Otherwise it is only a belief. We all have those.

You prove you're right. Otherwise, it's only a belief.

So god isn't finished with creating humans, he now wants to create a New Race. Because the previous one won't follow his messenger.

Does that sound right and logical?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Here is what Abdu'l-Baha said about Christ and Baha'u'llah (the Greatest Luminary) and the significance of what Jesus did for us. This is in the chapter 30: ADAM AND EVE:

“When the sanctified breezes of Christ and the holy light of the Greatest Luminary 5 were spread abroad, the human realities—that is to say, those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125

What does this mean in plain English?

What did the crucifixion of Christ achieve when he was executed?
Anything achieved was done many years afterwards because he was resurrected.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

But you cannot blame God or Jesus for those flaws; all those flaws are flaws that mean made by misinterpreting the Bible and creating false doctrines, and some of those flaws are owing to the Bible authors.... still men.

.

Bahaullah took parts of the bibles and interpreted them to fit his new religion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Flawed v not flawed is to be seen in the results.

Are all the true messages getting through? NO.
Are many false messages getting through? YES.
Is an Infallible All-Knowing and All-Wise god changinging it's Modus Operandi? NO.

Therefore a flawed method. Just saying it isn't doesn't provide a reason for success.

Unless the system is given to allow our free will choices and it is those choices that set the balance. Thus it is perfect in design to provide for us what God Wills.

Thus the system is like this world, some trees grow and produce fruit to which feed the masses, some tress grow and produce no fruit and are cut down.

You get to choose what is true and what is false, what you choose is part of the health of the whole.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahaullah took parts of the bibles and interpreted them to fit his new religion.

Events in His life unfold in a way that we can choose to see are fulfilling what the Bible offered.

Like Micah 7:12

"In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain."

It was the persecution and banishment by the Rulers of the time that sent Baha'u'llah from Assyria to Akka from prison forts to prison forts across mountains and seas and from the River.

It is all up to you how you look at that prophecy and if you see it is fair to see it is fulfilled in the events of Baha'u'llah's life.

Regards Tony

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Unless the system is given to allow our free will choices and it is those choices that set the balance. Thus it is perfect in design to provide for us what God Wills.

Thus the system is like this world, some trees grow and produce fruit to which feed the masses, some tress grow and produce no fruit and are cut down.

You get to choose what is true and what is false, what you choose is part of the health of the whole.

Regards Tony

So the flaws are part of the system. I can see what you mean now.

Rather than go to leaders of countries, empires, etc this god chooses people who will not get the message across.