God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

Also, the main character of Revelation is this "Lamb". Baha'is have no clear interpretation of who the Lamb is. Context makes it sound like Jesus, not Baha'u'llah.

I finally found what I was looking for about the Lamb because the verses were in that video.

Like I said in a previous post, context makes it sound like Baha'u'llah. not Jesus.

Bahá'u'lláh, which means the glory of God in Arabic, was born Mirza Husayn Ali in 1817 into one of Persia's most noble and privileged families.Sep 28, 2009

Religions - Bahai: Bahá'u'lláh - BBC

Revelation 21:23-24

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Also, does the Bible tell of four Jewish Messiahs? Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? Only to Baha'is.

Baha'is do not believe all of those Manifestations of God were the Jewish Messiah.

We believe that only Baha'u'llah was the Jewish Messiah.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

No, the method is not flawed, the people are flawed because they are not recognizing the messages. Instead of looking at the new message God sent through Baha'u'llah they cling to older messages from older religions that are of no real use in today's world, with all the social and economic problems we have. Failure to get the message is all related to humans, not to God or the Messenger.

I have listed the seven reasons that people do not get the message. Human's failure to get the message and do something with it has nothing to do with the method of communication God uses, Messengers, so there is absolutely no reason for God to change His Method of communicating. Aside from that, you act as if there was a better way for God to communicate and there really is no other way that could ever work at all.

So for 1,000s of years the method of sending messages wasn't working, because Man didn't take them on board. It's all Man's fault because we were designed to not believe.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

There is no way it can be proven. All we have is what Baha'u'llah said and we take Him at His word or not.

The existence if thousands of fake gurus does not mean there are no real Messengers of God, to say that is illogical.

The existence of fake gurus in the 100,000s makes it logical Bahaullah is just another one.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I know it is a belief and I cannot prove it is true to anyone except myself.

You continue to get this backwards and put the cart before the horse....

God is not creating the New Race so they will follow Baha'u'llah, mankind will become a New race by following Baha'u'llah. Moreover, God is not creating a New Race of Men, men will become a New Race all by themselves.

Here are some more quotes that will hopefully help you to understand:

“At the heart of this system was what Bahá’u’lláh termed a “new Covenant” between God and humankind. The distinguishing feature of humanity’s coming of age is that, for the first time in its history, the entire human race is consciously involved, however dimly, in the awareness of its own oneness and of the earth as a single homeland. This awakening opens the way to a new relationship between God and humankind. As the peoples of the world embrace the spiritual authority inherent in the guidance of the Revelation of God for this age, Bahá’u’lláh said, they will find in themselves a moral empowerment which human effort alone has proven incapable of generating. “A new race of men” will emerge as the result of this relationship, and the work of building a global civilization will begin.” (Bahá’í International Community, 1992 May 29, Statement on Bahá’u’lláh, p. 26)

“In this age humanity has strayed far from the path of truth, and the call of Bahá’u’lláh to recognize Him as the viceregent of God on earth has fallen on deaf ears. But a careful study of His writings leads us to believe that His Revelation, being the culmination of past Revelations and one which has ushered in the Day of God Himself, will exert such a potent influence upon mankind as a whole that eventually all the peoples of the world will recognize His station of their own free will and embrace His cause of their own volition. And this in turn will bring about, in the distant future, the appearance of a new race of men whose noble character and spiritual virtues we, in this age, are unable to visualize.” (AdibTaherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 3, p. 3)

“With the establishment of the Most Great Peace and the spiritualization of the peoples of the world, man will become a noble being adorned with divine virtues and perfections. This is one of the fruits of the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, promised by Him. The nobility of man and his spiritual development will lead him in the future to such a position that no individual could enjoy eating his food or resting at home while knowing that there was one person somewhere in the world without food or shelter. It is Bahá’u’lláh’s mission to create such a new race of men.” (Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 3, p. 126)

New Race of Men

So Man will become a New Race of Men. That's how evolution works.

The problem is the solutions put forward by Bahaullah do nothing to solve the problem we face. That problem is climate change, overpopulation, overconsumption in some countries, and over-exploitation of the Earth's resources.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

No, the method is not flawed, the people are flawed because they are not recognizing the messages. Instead of looking at the new message God sent through Baha'u'llah they cling to older messages from older religions that are of no real use in today's world, with all the social and economic problems we have. Failure to get the message is all related to humans, not to God or the Messenger.

I have listed the seven reasons that people do not get the message. Human's failure to get the message and do something with it has nothing to do with the method of communication God uses, Messengers, so there is absolutely no reason for God to change His Method of communicating. Aside from that, you act as if there was a better way for God to communicate and there really is no other way that could ever work at all.

So our design is flawed.

What does Bahaullah address that will solve the problems I mentioned before solve?

Or do you deny they aren't the real problems of today?

 

[Trailblazer]

So for 1,000s of years the method of sending messages wasn't working, because Man didn't take them on board. It's all Man's fault because we were designed to not believe.

That is not true at all. Most people took the messages on board. Man was designed to believe.

84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. We know that Christians and Muslims believe in a Messenger and they comprise 55% of the world population. Hindus and Buddhists comprise most of the rest of believers and they also have a Messenger (or messengers) they believe in. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are men who founded the religions, so they are Mediators between God and man. Sure, there are a few stragglers, believers who believe in God but not a Messenger; this comprises about 9% of the world population, but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers, very few people would believe in God.

 

[Trailblazer]

The existence of fake gurus in the 100,000s makes it logical Bahaullah is just another one.

No, that is not logical. The existence of true Messengers of God such as Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad,and the Bab make it logical that Baha'u'llah was just another true Messenger.

 

[Trailblazer]

So Man will become a New Race of Men. That's how evolution works.

The problem is the solutions put forward by Bahaullah do nothing to solve the problem we face. That problem is climate change, overpopulation, overconsumption in some countries, and over-exploitation of the Earth's resources.

Religion is not revealed to solve those kinds of problems directly, although when people become more spiritual and less materialistic these problems will be mitigated and eventually solved.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

Those problems have to be solved by people working together in harmony and unity, with justice and wisdom, so the message of Baha'u'llah about the importance of justice and the unity of mankind would do something to help solve the problems we face, of people listened to the message.

 

[Trailblazer]

So our design is flawed.

What does Bahaullah address that will solve the problems I mentioned before solve?

Or do you deny they aren't the real problems of today?

No, our design is not flawed because people have the potential to overcome these problems.

I just addressed the problems and how they can be addressed.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

That is not true at all. Most people took the messages on board. Man was designed to believe.

84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. We know that Christians and Muslims believe in a Messenger and they comprise 55% of the world population. Hindus and Buddhists comprise most of the rest of believers and they also have a Messenger (or messengers) they believe in. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are men who founded the religions, so they are Mediators between God and man. Sure, there are a few stragglers, believers who believe in God but not a Messenger; this comprises about 9% of the world population, but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers, very few people would believe in God.

You can't claim that because 84% of the world is religious they all believe in messengers. The fact is different messenger got different messages at roughly the same time. All modern religions started a few 1,000 years ago.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

No, that is not logical. The existence of true Messengers of God such as Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad,and the Bab make it logical that Baha'u'llah was just another true Messenger.

It's entirely logical because of the 100,00s of fake gurus. Naming 8 doesn't change that. In fact, it reinforces it. You have to start from the belief any new messenger is fake and leaves to the new guy to establish his credibility.

There are huge gaps in Bahaullah credentials. Some of the prophecies he should have filled, some of his predictions and all of his measures to solve anything.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can't claim that because 84% of the world is religious they all believe in messengers. The fact is different messenger got different messages at roughly the same time. All modern religions started a few 1,000 years ago.

Call them whatever you want to call them. The fact remains that most people are religious and most people believe in a man who founded their religion because that is how God has always communicated to humanity.

I am not talking about modern religions, i am talking about all religions that have been established throughout history.
Yes, they did have different messages. Why would God send a new Messenger with the same exact message?

 

[Trailblazer]

It's entirely logical because of the 100,00s of fake gurus. Naming 8 doesn't change that. In fact, it reinforces it. You have to start from the belief any new messenger is fake and leaves to the new guy to establish his credibility.

It is not at all logical to say because there are thousands of fake gurus that all Messengers of God are fake. That would be like saying that because there are thousands of junky cars in junkyards that no longer run there are no good cars that run. It is completely illogical because given human nature there is no reason to think that there would not be many false prophets; but that in no way precludes the existence of true Prophets/Messengers of God. We just have to determined which ones are false and which are true and Jesus told us how to do that.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

There are huge gaps in Bahaullah credentials. Some of the prophecies he should have filled, some of his predictions and all of his measures to solve anything.

I do not see it that way, but if that is how you see it I am not going to try to change your mind. You have false expectations regarding what you think a Messenger of God should be doing.

It does not matter how we perceive Baha'u'llah because humans are fallible this their perceptions are fallible. At the end of the day, all that really matters is if He was really a Messenger of God, because everything rests upon that claim. As such, that is the first order of business to determine of he was who he claimed to be.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Call them whatever you want to call them. The fact remains that most people are religious and most people believe in a man who founded their religion because that is how God has always communicated to humanity.

I am not talking about modern religions, i am talking about all religions that have been established throughout history.
Yes, they did have different messages. Why would God send a new Messenger with the same exact message?

Men have to start religions because there is no god to start them.

Why would one message sender tell different people different messages at the same time? It makes no sense.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Men have to start religions because there is no god to start them.

Why would one message sender tell different people different messages at the same time? It makes no sense.

Please prove God does not exist... can you?

FYI: i believe God exist, but i can not prove it. I hold a belief not a proof

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

It is not at all logical to say because there are thousands of fake gurus that all Messengers of God are fake. That would be like saying that because there are thousands of junky cars in junkyards that no longer run there are no good cars that run. It is completely illogical because given human nature there is no reason to think that there would not be many false prophets; but that in no way precludes the existence of true Prophets/Messengers of God. We just have to determined which ones are false and which are true and Jesus told us how to do that.

I said because there are so many fake messengers we should start with the discipline that all new ones are fake until they prove otherwise.

I can see cars in the junkyard, so a terrible example.

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." What has Bahaullah done to show he's a true messenger? He doesn't like wars, he thinks the whole world should come together behind him, he has no solution to modern problems.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I do not see it that way, but if that is how you see it I am not going to try to change your mind. You have false expectations regarding what you think a Messenger of God should be doing.

It does not matter how we perceive Baha'u'llah because humans are fallible this their perceptions are fallible. At the end of the day, all that really matters is if He was really a Messenger of God, because everything rests upon that claim. As such, that is the first order of business to determine of he was who he claimed to be.

Only 5 million see it your way, so not an accepted messenger by the majority.

Give us evidence he was a messenger of god.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Only 5 million see it your way, so not an accepted messenger by the majority.

Give us evidence he was a messenger of god.

Can you prove your car is blue to a colorblind man?
No matter how you explain the Color to him, he still only see contrasts from white to Black. To a colorblind person colors does not exist, but you know your car is blue ( blue is of course just an example, i dont know the Color of your car)

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Bahaullah's main mission is to stop the wars, killings, genocide by these methods.

• The oneness of God.
• The oneness of humanity.
• The oneness of religion.
• Religion as a school.
• Equality of women and men.
• Harmony of religion and science.
• Universal compulsory education.
• Universal auxiliary language.

They are unable to answer the simplest of questions. What do you do with the few who don't follow your ideas? The man who murder's another, the group who murder another, the country that wages war against its neighbour. They offer up sanctions as if these have worked in the past. We know they don't.

Bahaullah offers up talking shops where everyone agrees? We know they don't work for the individual bent on destruction.

Therefore a fake messenger.