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God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Hindu theists do not depend just on a book. They come with detailed arguments. Each statement is followed by detailed explanation. None claimed to be the 'word of God'. Result of contemplation, analysis. One such illustrated here. 555 aphoristic verses (sutras) in four chapters (examples below).
Brahma Sutras: Preface – Brahma Sutras by Swami Sivananda

Athato Brahmajijnasa I.1.1 (1)
Now, therefore, the enquiry into Brahman.

Janmadyasya yatah I.1.2 (2)
(Brahman is that) from which the origin etc., (i.e. the origin, sustenance and dissolution) of this (world proceed).

Sastrayonitvat I.1.3 (3)
The scripture being the source of right knowledge.

Tattu Samanvayat I.1.4 (4)
But that (Brahman is to be known only from the Scriptures and not independently by any other means is established), because it is the main purpose (of all Vedantic texts).

Ikshaternasabdam I.1.5 (5)
On account of seeing (i.e. thinking being attributed in the Upanishads to the First Cause, the Pradhana) is not (the first cause indicated by the Upanishads; for) it (Pradhana) is not based on the scriptures.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yeah, when? Now that your Mahdi has come and so too your Manifestation?
Is he not aware of passing of time, agreed that he may not have a stop watch?
Why don't you present him one?
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
I believe God does not want us to know 100% that he exist. Why? because life is a test, or a possibility for the soul to learn. If God showed himself to us so all human know he exist then the test or learning for the soul would be meaningless.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I believe God does not want us to know 100% that he exist. Why? because life is a test, or a possibility for the soul to learn. If God showed himself to us so all human know he exist then the test or learning for the soul would be meaningless.
Best answer in RF for a long long time.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
This is the continuation is a discussion I was having with @ QuestioningMind on another thread.
We got off topic so I decided to start a new thread. Anyone is welcome to contribute their ideas if they are so inclined. :)

Trailblazer said: It IS an important message, but it is unrealistic to expect everyone to receive it. That happens over the course of time, not all at once. The delivery system is not flawed just because everyone has not received the message. You have received the message but so far you have chosen to reject it.

QuestioningMind said: Apparently that's the case for EVERY religion. I've had Christians tell me after I read the bible that I'd received god's message, but I'm simply rejecting it. Muslims have said as much after I read the Koran, Hindus have said the same after I read the Vedas... now you've said it too. Yet when I read what you claimed were the most convincing messages from your religion, I found them to be just as vague and unconvincing as all of the other religions I've studied.

It is true that if you reject messages from any of the true religions, you are rejecting God’s message, because all of those messages were true. However they were also time-date stamped, so much of what they revealed is no longer pertinent to the age we now live in. The Spiritual teachings are eternal, but the social teachings and laws are not for this age, and the message is no longer needed in this day since it was intended for another age in history. In addition, those messages were not written by a Messenger of God, they were written by man on His behalf, and as such they are not exactly what the Messenger said. In addition to that, the religions themselves have been changed and corrupted by man over the course of time.

Yet when I read what you claimed were the most convincing messages from your religion, I found them to be just as vague and unconvincing as all of the other religions I've studied.

I do not know what messages you are referring to, but reading a few things I have posted is not the way to determine if a religion is actually the truth from God or not.

What is the flaw and who has the flaw; that is the hundred-dollar question. If religious believers believe they already have the truth from God and they refuse to look at a new message, whose fault is that? I think they are the ones who are flawed. I agree that those who are unaware that there is a new message are somewhat screwed, and that is why it is so important for Baha’is to get the message out. However, those people are not completely screwed because If they were really seeking a new religion they could find the message on the internet and contact the Baha’is in their area who are readily available to talk to seekers.

After reading this several times all I can conclude is that you're saying the 'flaw' is in a person ever believing that they already have the truth from god. Even if you're convinced that you have discovered god's TRUE messenger, you shouldn't accept it and instead continue to look for new messengers who might actually have the truth from god.

I can understand why you concluded that but that is not exactly what I am saying. There is no reason they should not believe they have the truth from God in their religion because they were probably raised in that religion and that is what they learned thus believed to be the truth. However, here is the caveat:

“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.
Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.”


Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

Because all the major religions foretold that another one would come and fulfill the prophecies of their respective religions, they should be looking, or at least open, to a man who makes such a claim. This is particularly true of the Jews and Christians, as the Jews have been waiting for their Messiah for thousands of years, and of course we all know that Christians are waiting for the return of Christ. So if a man such as Bahaullah comes claiming to be the Messiah and the return of Christ, they should at least be willing to check Him out in order to determine if He is who He claims to be.

But shouldn't they ALSO be looking at all of the old messengers who claimed to have the truth of god as well? After all, the true messenger may have come 3000 years ago and you were never fortunate enough to have been exposed to their message.

The Messengers that came thousands of years ago were true Messengers, but as I said above the messages that they brought are not what humanity needs in this age. They should be concerned about what humanity needs now, but instead they cling to their older religious traditions because that is comfortable for them. The older religions do not have the answers to the serious problems humanity is facing NOW. If there is an All-Knowing God who cares about humans, don’t you think that God would know what humanity needs in this age and reveal that to humankind? I believe that is exactly what has happened.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213


But why would anyone keep seeking a new religion if they're convinced that they've already found the TRUE religion? That's like saying that after you've determined that the statement 2 + 2 = 4 is TRUE, but you're going to continue to seek evidence that maybe 2 + 2 is ACTUALLY 9. Once someone has found an answer for a question, it's illogical to expect them to keep searching for an answer.

I like your logic and you just nipped it in the bud. Why indeed would they seek a new religion of they are convinced that their religion is the one TRUE religion? And therein lies the essential problem. With some exceptions, most people who hold a religious belief believe their religion is true, the only way, the best and the last religion God will ever reveal, so if course they would not be seeking another religion. It is only a small number of people who are open to the idea that God might have revealed a new religion, a religion that does not invalidate any of the religions of the past but rather fulfills the promises of their religion, as noted above.

So it seems to me that if it's just as easy for someone to convince themselves that religion A is true, when it actually isn't, as it is to convince themselves that religion F is true, when it is, THAT'S a huge flaw in the system. If someone picks the wrong religion it should be as evident as someone claiming 2 + 2 = 9. Otherwise it has virtually nothing to do with what religion is actually true, but rather on which religion a person if first introduced to and indoctrinated into. If we determined the truth of mathematical statements the way we determine the truth of religious claims then anyone taught that 2 + 2 = 9 would have just as reliable evidence as those who claim that 2 + 2 = 4.

You raise a valid point, but according to Baha’i beliefs, there is no WRONG religion, although there are religions whose messages and social teachings and laws are outdated. For example, do you believe that adulterers and homosexuals should be put to death, as the Torah teaches? Those ancient laws have been updated by Baha’u’llah who revealed a new Book of Laws with penalties that are pertinent to the age in which we live.

Once someone grasps the idea that there is only one true God and that God reveals different religions through different Messengers over the course of time, according to the ever-changing needs of humanity, called Progressive Revelation, the sky is the limit. Unfortunately most religious people are so mired in their own religious beliefs they cannot see the forest, they only see one tree. I always hope that an atheist might understand because at least atheists are logical and unbiased towards one particular religion, but hurdle for atheists is that they do not believe in a God that would use Messengers to establish religions.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

(Continued on next post)

The flaw is, in two cases at least neither Jesus nor Mohamad wrote any message. Everything about them, what they said comes from claims of other men. The problem with Baha'i, although we something actually written finally, his authority is based partly on two "messengers" who never wrote anything.

If God is going to send messengers, at least pick someone with writing skills.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The flaw is, in two cases at least neither Jesus nor Mohamad wrote any message. Everything about them, what they said comes from claims of other men.
That is not a flaw in the method of communication, that is just the way revelations from God through Messengers were passed along in the past ages. It did create many problems, but the messages still got through.
The problem with Baha'i, although we something actually written finally, his authority is based partly on two "messengers" who never wrote anything.
The Baha'i Faith is not based upon the authority of Jesus or Muhammad or any past Messengers.
Baha'u'llah received His own Revelation from God, so His authority to speak for God came from God.
If God is going to send messengers, at least pick someone with writing skills.
Unfortunately, that is not the way God intended for it to be done in the past and it created many problems, but the past is gone.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
That is not a flaw in the method of communication, that is just the way revelations from God through Messengers were passed along in the past ages. It did create many problems, but the messages still got through.

We don't know the messages got through. One can only assume this to be the case.

The Baha'i Faith is not based upon the authority of Jesus or Muhammad or any past Messengers.
Baha'u'llah received His own Revelation from God, so His authority to speak for God came from God.

I thought his coming was prophesied

Unfortunately, that is not the way God intended for it to be done in the past and it created many problems, but the past is gone.

Ok, so we agree - flaw?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We don't know the messages got through. One can only assume this to be the case.
We know that the gist of the message got through because from that religions were born.
I thought his coming was prophesied.
It was prophesied, by the Jewish prophets, and by Jesus.
Ok, so we agree - flaw?
No, because the Method God uses cannot be flawed since God is infallible.
Humans however can be flawed because humans are fallible.
That means that any failures had to be on the part of humans, not God or the Messengers.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
So you believe the anthropomorphism in the Bible, but I don't.

That book should be put on the shelf, where it belongs. It is history, inaccurate history.
Many do, in fact billions more than you do. So is it logical you are right and they are wrong?

The truth is with 10,000 religions of versions of the same religion it's not hard to start another one. 10,000 messengers from god or 9,999 fake ones or 10,000 fake ones. Don't claim one god was sending 1,000s of different messages to suit the people, it makes no logical sense.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Post them here, you keep sending people to books, endless pages of text to prove your point. In the end few are convinced. That is if they can't be debated against easily.
Baha’u’llah’s Two Bold Claims

All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions:

In the East the light of [God’s] Revelation hath broken; in the West have appeared the signs of His dominion. Ponder this in your hearts, O people, and be not of those who have turned a deaf ear to the admonitions of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Praised. Let the Breeze of God awaken you. Verily, it hath wafted over the world. Well is it with him that hath discovered the fragrance thereof and been accounted among the well-assured. – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah.

This station, by itself, makes the Baha’i Faith the youngest of the major world religions.

Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.

Baha’u’llah declared this period in history as the Day of God, the Time of the End. His mission is nothing less than the establishment of this glorious kingdom – the unification of the entire human race into an all-embracing, spiritually mature world civilization based upon divine principles of justice and love, and whose watchword will be unity in diversity.

With this second claim, Baha’is believe that all of the religions of the world have been consummated and fulfilled with the coming of Baha’u’llah.

https://bahaiteachings.org/what-did-bahaullah-teach?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence that establishes the truth of His claims. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote an be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me He was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that He could see into the future, so He had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Baha’u’llah’s Two Bold Claims

All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions:

In the East the light of [God’s] Revelation hath broken; in the West have appeared the signs of His dominion. Ponder this in your hearts, O people, and be not of those who have turned a deaf ear to the admonitions of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Praised. Let the Breeze of God awaken you. Verily, it hath wafted over the world. Well is it with him that hath discovered the fragrance thereof and been accounted among the well-assured. – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah.

This station, by itself, makes the Baha’i Faith the youngest of the major world religions.

Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.

Baha’u’llah declared this period in history as the Day of God, the Time of the End. His mission is nothing less than the establishment of this glorious kingdom – the unification of the entire human race into an all-embracing, spiritually mature world civilization based upon divine principles of justice and love, and whose watchword will be unity in diversity.

With this second claim, Baha’is believe that all of the religions of the world have been consummated and fulfilled with the coming of Baha’u’llah.

https://bahaiteachings.org/what-did-bahaullah-teach?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence that establishes the truth of His claims. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote an be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me He was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that He could see into the future, so He had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
I'm not even going to bother commenting other than. He says he's the messenger and therefore he is. :rolleyes:
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
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